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[Auintus]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Auintus wrote...
The only trained mage I've seen fall prey to demons was Uldred, and he wasn't exactly good.

What about the various mages you encountered in Dragon Age 2? Like during The Last Straw at the foundry where the girl turned into an abomination. What about Thrask's daughter, Grace, and Evelina.

Apprentices. And Grace was just messed.

Auintus wrote...
Not my logic. I reason that magic is a part of who they are and can be controlled and utilized as any tool might. You seem to think that any possible threat must be locked up even if it is managable.
More dangerous, and more helpful. It is an order of magnitude greater in scale to both extremes.
It was an extreme example. Consider instead the removal of a tool, a very useful, but not absolutely necessary tool. Except that isn't quite accurate. Maybe there isn't an appropriate metaphor.

The Qunari are the most utilitarian society in Thedas, and they greatly value tools. Yet they chain their mages, sew their mouths, and cut their tongues.

I...don't understand. I said the Qunari system was worse.

Auintus wrote...
Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm. I am not suggesting that self-defense would be the only circumstance in which they would use magic. Just that it is a relevent one.
True, they can. But then the threat of possession is no greater than a possessed corpse.

This is simply not true. A possessed corpse under the influence of sloth, rage, and hunger arn't much of a threat. Those controlled by spirits of pride become arcane horrors. Revenants are corpses controlled by powerful demons. Plus you have to remember that an abomination has all the powers the mage has.

And? I never said a possessed corpse was no threat. I said that, if the mage was killed, then they wouldnt be able to allow themselves to be possessed out of desperation. Thus, no abomination, just a horror.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm.

Hardly the norm? Most kids with a sick relative would play Make-a-Wish foundation with a demon.
And then there's the adults who would use demons to get whatever they want in life. The people who lose control once and turn to demons.

There is an infinite number of justifications one can find for making deals with demons.

And how often does a powerful mage child have a deathly sick parent? If Isolde hadn't been a pain about it, Connor could have been trained and known better.
The only mages that accept deals with demons out of anything other than desperation are evil beyond redemption.
I've never justified demon-dealing. I've acknowledged why it occurs.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Apprentices. And Grace was just messed.

Circunstances lead to Grace's madness. It can happen to everyone, life is full of stressfull situations.

I...don't understand. I said the Qunari system was worse.

He means that the qunari are notorious for not wasting any individual. Yet, they prefer to bound mages from head to toe to the point their own bodies are prisons rather than take advantage of their powers.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

They're isolated largely because of:

A. Demons
B. Blood magic(namely mind control)

Not because magic gives them some sort've innate advantage in baking pies or sowing crops. Most magic that isn't currently in heavy use(crafting magic is in use) is destructive in nature. As you'll notice, people aren't locked up in Circles in Thedas because they're exceptional architects or scholars, they're locked up because they present a massive threat.

A person with the ability to control the minds of others is highly dangerous. The Litany only provides very specific protection at the moment when the mind control is attempted. The Tevinter Imperium has arisen twice now. Once when mages were free, and another time when the templars were merely too lax in regulating a Circle. Given human nature and empirical evidence, it would seem that complete mage freedom isn't really feasible(although I don't know that I'd consider the ability to be a serf or a member of the elven underclass better than the Circles).

Most mages wouldn't bother with blood magic or demons, if properly trained. Mages would still have to be monitored. That doesn't mean that they have to be put in a cage for life.

They are locked up for existing, for being capable of things, good and bad, that the average person isn't. Everyone is dangerous.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Apprentices. And Grace was just messed.

Circunstances lead to Grace's madness. It can happen to everyone, life is full of stressfull situations.

I...don't understand. I said the Qunari system was worse.

He means that the qunari are notorious for not wasting any individual. Yet, they prefer to bound mages from head to toe to the point their own bodies are prisons rather than take advantage of their powers.

Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
And how often does a powerful mage child have a deathly sick parent? If Isolde hadn't been a pain about it, Connor could have been trained and known better.

There is no indication of Connor being particularly powerful. Unless you means politically.
Would he know better? I doubt it. Desire Demons have been known to seduce even Senior Enchanters.
If your father was dying, would you really not turn to a demon?

The only mages that accept deals with demons out of anything other than desperation are evil beyond redemption.
I've never justified demon-dealing. I've acknowledged why it occurs.

The point is that it occurs for a myriad of reasons which justifies the actions of templars.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:26 .

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

They're isolated largely because of:

A. Demons
B. Blood magic(namely mind control)

Not because magic gives them some sort've innate advantage in baking pies or sowing crops. Most magic that isn't currently in heavy use(crafting magic is in use) is destructive in nature. As you'll notice, people aren't locked up in Circles in Thedas because they're exceptional architects or scholars, they're locked up because they present a massive threat.

A person with the ability to control the minds of others is highly dangerous. The Litany only provides very specific protection at the moment when the mind control is attempted. The Tevinter Imperium has arisen twice now. Once when mages were free, and another time when the templars were merely too lax in regulating a Circle. Given human nature and empirical evidence, it would seem that complete mage freedom isn't really feasible(although I don't know that I'd consider the ability to be a serf or a member of the elven underclass better than the Circles).

Most mages wouldn't bother with blood magic or demons, if properly trained. Mages would still have to be monitored. That doesn't mean that they have to be put in a cage for life.

They are locked up for existing, for being capable of things, good and bad, that the average person isn't. Everyone is dangerous.

The Circle is a mage-run education center. It is obligatory(but what modern education system isn't?) but mages who demonstrate sufficient personal responsibility and restraint are granted greater freedoms(such as being allowed to travel without monitors for senior mages). Mages can own property and accumulate great wealth, like the Lucretians. Now the Circles do have oversight problems and are not standardized in how mages are treated(nor do mages have a great deal of recourse should the Knight-Commander be corrupt), but they're also a free education, a higher standard of living, protection from the peasantry and others who would go on witch hunts, and a place of relative plenty and safety from the traditional dangers of the Medieval world.

Everyone is dangerous. But not everyone can cause a nation to go to war with the power of their mind. Not everyone can murder, rape, and pillage without any trace of their identity.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
And how often does a powerful mage child have a deathly sick parent? If Isolde hadn't been a pain about it, Connor could have been trained and known better.

There is no indication of Connor being particularly powerful. Unless you means politically.
Would he know better? I doubt it. Desire Demons have been known to seduce even Senior Enchanters.
If your father was dying, would you really not turn to a demon?

The only mages that accept deals with demons out of anything other than desperation are evil beyond redemption.
I've never justified demon-dealing. I've acknowledged why it occurs.

The point is that it occurs for a myriad of reasons which justifies the actions of templars.

There were a few things that mentioned he was a cut above the average mage. His progress in the Circle seems to support it to.
I'd like an example of that. Uldred went nuts due to Wynne's pestering apparently, but most enchanters know better.
No, I wouldn't. But Connor didn't understand the implication of the deal due to his naivete. Had he know that he would become and abomination and kill most of Redcliffe, I doubt he would have taken it. Lack of education.
No, I wouldn't. I can see the bigger picture. My dad lives, yes, but I become a threat to an entire town.

It doesn't justify it, not as far as they go. The problem must be solved, but a life sentence based on what you were born is too far.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

The system could be arranged differently and still neutralize mad mages without imprisoning the innocent with them.
Not quite. Mages spend most of their time locked up so "relying on" them isn't an option. Technological advances like that mostly amount to luck.

[The Hierophant]

DKJaigen wrote...

In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger.

Stronger is subjective as bench pressing 10x10 sets of 90kgs daily won't help against a town leveling abomination.

If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages. If the mundanes cannot handle the darkspawn then thats not the problem of the mages.

Abominations and darkspawn are indiscrimainate killers so that means they're a problem for everybody.

And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak. oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The Templars still had the majority of mages under their thumb, and  the apostates living like fugitives for almost a millennia until Asunder.  Also the extent of a mage's contribution to the Joining ritual is unknown, and aside from not being born with magical talent mundanes haven't failed at anything.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:11 .

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

The Circle is a mage-run education center. It is obligatory(but what modern education system isn't?) but mages who demonstrate sufficient personal responsibility and restraint are granted greater freedoms(such as being allowed to travel without monitors for senior mages). Mages can own property and accumulate great wealth, like the Lucretians. Now the Circles do have oversight problems and are not standardized in how mages are treated(nor do mages have a great deal of recourse should the Knight-Commander be corrupt), but they're also a free education, a higher standard of living, protection from the peasantry and others who would go on witch hunts, and a place of relative plenty and safety from the traditional dangers of the Medieval world.

Everyone is dangerous. But not everyone can cause a nation to go to war with the power of their mind. Not everyone can murder, rape, and pillage without any trace of their identity.

They are watched like criminals for being born with magic. Yes, mages must be educated, the Circles must remain, but no mage I've seen is allowed to live free of the Circle. Wynne was an exception. And Wilhelm had the personal support of King Maric.

And so mages must be watched for the evil ones in their midst, but you condemn them all for the rare evil mage, and only cause more problems in the process.

[Auintus]

The Hierophant wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger.

Stronger is subjective as bench pressing 10x10 sets of 90kgs daily won't help against a town leveling abomination.

If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages. If the mundanes cannot handle the darkspawn then thats not the problem of the mages.

Abominations and darkspawn are indiscrimainate killers so that means they're a problem for everybody.

And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak. oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The Templars still had the majority mages under their thumb, and  the apostates living like fugitives for almost a millennia until Asunder.  Also the extent of a mage's contribution to the Joining ritual is unknown, and aside from not being born with magical talent mundanes haven't failed at anything.

I would like to apologize for DKJaigen. Mages deserve more freedom than they have, but they still must be watched and trained. In addition, there is no reason that mages and templars cannot cooperate to take down an abomination, which would be a threat to any living being, not just mundanes.
He seems to believe that mages are a pseudo-god race, when they are just human beings with a little bit of power.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Circle is a mage-run education center. It is obligatory(but what modern education system isn't?) but mages who demonstrate sufficient personal responsibility and restraint are granted greater freedoms(such as being allowed to travel without monitors for senior mages). Mages can own property and accumulate great wealth, like the Lucretians. Now the Circles do have oversight problems and are not standardized in how mages are treated(nor do mages have a great deal of recourse should the Knight-Commander be corrupt), but they're also a free education, a higher standard of living, protection from the peasantry and others who would go on witch hunts, and a place of relative plenty and safety from the traditional dangers of the Medieval world.

Everyone is dangerous. But not everyone can cause a nation to go to war with the power of their mind. Not everyone can murder, rape, and pillage without any trace of their identity.

They are watched like criminals for being born with magic. Yes, mages must be educated, the Circles must remain, but no mage I've seen is allowed to live free of the Circle. Wynne was an exception. And Wilhelm had the personal support of King Maric.

And so mages must be watched for the evil ones in their midst, but you condemn them all for the rare evil mage, and only cause more problems in the process.

DA:A, there's a quest for a traveling senior enchantress named Ines who is researching plants. Furthermore, she is being called to join a convening of mages in Cumberland, which means multiple mages are traveling(and some like Ines without a templar supervisor), to an entirely different nation to hold a meeting. Its apparent that at least in some Circles much freedom can be earned through demonstration of personal restraint.

The Circles, as flawed as they are, seem to have solved vastly more problems than existed prior to them. The tyranny of the Tevinter Imperium has been averted for around a thousand years, and mages are not being slaughtered wholesale like they were prior to the taming of the Inquisition.

Modifié par Vandicus, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

Except that's false.

Thedas doesn't "rely heavily" on magic. Magic is already banned and never used, except when the Chantry says it's okay, which they hardly ever do. The vast majority of people have no access to it whatsoever.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
I'd like an example of that. Uldred went nuts due to Wynne's pestering apparently, but most enchanters know better.

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Desire_Demon

No, I wouldn't. But Connor didn't understand the implication of the deal due to his naivete. Had he know that he would become and abomination and kill most of Redcliffe, I doubt he would have taken it. Lack of education.
No, I wouldn't. I can see the bigger picture. My dad lives, yes, but I become a threat to an entire town.

Very few deal with demons expecting to become abominations. Mages, such as Merril, tend to think they can control them and end up manipulated.

It doesn't justify it, not as far as they go. The problem must be solved, but a life sentence based on what you were born is too far.

I disagree but you already know that.

The system could be arranged differently and still neutralize mad mages without imprisoning the innocent with them.

When we can tell with 100% accuracy who is likely to abuse their powers or cause magical accidents, we can show more leniency.
Until then, we gather them all up.

Not
quite. Mages spend most of their time locked up so "relying on" them
isn't an option. Technological advances like that mostly amount to luck.

Yes, quite. Most of humanity's real life advancements originated in the field of battle. In Thedas, there is no need for that. You call the mages and problem solved. For instance, read about the Qunari Wars.
Magic has become too much of a crutch to humanity.

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

Except that's false.

Thedas doesn't "rely heavily" on magic. Magic is already banned and never used, except when the Chantry says it's okay, which they hardly ever do. The vast majority of people have no access to it whatsoever.

Magic items make a mint in regular Thedas. Do you think that all those magic items being made are only for fighting? The eternal flames that mages create, for example, means that electricity and light bulbs are not very useful inventions(until they can be mass produced, but they'll not be invented in the first place so the technology to mass produce them will not follow for quite some time).

Moreover, the Tevinter Imperium ruled for quite some time. Much of their more famous creations were magically generated, meaning their rule was a period of technological stagnation.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

DA:A, there's a quest for a traveling senior enchantress named Ines who is researching plants. Furthermore, she is being called to join a convening of mages in Cumberland, which means multiple mages are traveling(and some like Ines without a templar supervisor), to an entirely different nation to hold a meeting. Its apparent that at least in some Circles much freedom can be earned through demonstration of personal restraint.

The Circles, as flawed as they are, seem to have solved vastly more problems than existed prior to them. The tyranny of the Tevinter Imperium has been averted for around a thousand years, and mages are not being slaughtered wholesale like they were prior to the taming of the Inquisition.

Ines is on a project. She has to go back afterward. The leash may be long...
Yes, I've read Asunder, senior mages can travel and the meeting is overseen by templars.

I will not argue that the Circle has solved many problems for the average individual, but I will not agree that it cannot be done better.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

DA:A, there's a quest for a traveling senior enchantress named Ines who is researching plants. Furthermore, she is being called to join a convening of mages in Cumberland, which means multiple mages are traveling(and some like Ines without a templar supervisor), to an entirely different nation to hold a meeting. Its apparent that at least in some Circles much freedom can be earned through demonstration of personal restraint.

The Circles, as flawed as they are, seem to have solved vastly more problems than existed prior to them. The tyranny of the Tevinter Imperium has been averted for around a thousand years, and mages are not being slaughtered wholesale like they were prior to the taming of the Inquisition.

Ines is on a project. She has to go back afterward. The leash may be long...
Yes, I've read Asunder, senior mages can travel and the meeting is overseen by templars.

I will not argue that the Circle has solved many problems for the average individual, but I will not agree that it cannot be done better.

If the person can go for weeks on end without monitoring, the check-in is hardly a great harm to their freedoms. Moreover, I suspect its more freedom than serfs and city elves are allowed. Its practically a lateral move to allow them to have families in villages and towns nearby a Circle where they merely check in with a local templar at that point. There is the issue that many of these freedoms appear to be determined almost entirely at the will of the Knight-Commander.

I've not stated that the Circles couldn't be improved upon. My posts in this thread as well as others observed that the Circles have problems.

[Auintus]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Auintus wrote...
I'd like an example of that. Uldred went nuts due to Wynne's pestering apparently, but most enchanters know better.[/quote]

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Desire_Demon[/quote]

Attempting to understand demons is different from allowing possession. I was intrigued by the desire demon in Broken Circle, that doesn't mean I would let myself be possessed.

[quote]
[quote]No, I wouldn't. But Connor didn't understand the implication of the deal due to his naivete. Had he know that he would become and abomination and kill most of Redcliffe, I doubt he would have taken it. Lack of education.
No, I wouldn't. I can see the bigger picture. My dad lives, yes, but I become a threat to an entire town.[/quote]
Very few deal with demons expecting to become abominations. Mages, such as Merril, tend to think they can control them and end up manipulated.[/quote]
They accept the demon, just for a moment, just for a power boost. And the demon doesn't let go. They can be taught to know better.

[quote]
When we can tell with 100% accuracy who is likely to abuse their powers or cause magical accidents, we can show more leniency.
Until then, we gather them all up.[/quote]
So "guilty until proven innocent"?

[quote]Not
quite. Mages spend most of their time locked up so "relying on" them
isn't an option. Technological advances like that mostly amount to luck.
[/quote]
Yes, quite. Most of humanity's real life advancements originated in the field of battle. In Thedas, there is no need for that. You call the mages and problem solved. For instance, read about the Qunari Wars.
Magic has become too much of a crutch to humanity.
[/quote]

Qunari use mages in war, just as much as humans do. Look at the devestating use the Arishok put the Saarebas to in Kirkwall. Human mages are better trained, which was able to compansate for the Qunari's technological superiority.

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...



Qunari use mages in war, just as much as humans do. Look at the devestating use the Arishok put the Saarebas to in Kirkwall. Human mages are better trained, which was able to compansate for the Qunari's technological superiority.

The Qunari arrived a few hundred years before DA:O. Humanity is still relying on mages rather than developing gunpowder on its own.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

If the person can go for weeks on end without monitoring, the check-in is hardly a great harm to their freedoms. Moreover, I suspect its more freedom than serfs and city elves are allowed. Its practically a lateral move to allow them to have families in villages and towns nearby a Circle where they merely check in with a local templar at that point. There is the issue that many of these freedoms appear to be determined almost entirely at the will of the Knight-Commander.

I've not stated that the Circles couldn't be improved upon. My posts in this thread as well as others observed that the Circles have problems.

There is an enchanter from whom you can request as signiture for the rod of fire. If you tell him it's for research, he requests a proposal. The Circle, and consequently the templars, knew what she was up to and I have no doubt that, considering her age, they wouldn't let most mages do anything close to that.
City elves have a curfew, nothing more.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

The Qunari arrived a few hundred years before DA:O. Humanity is still relying on mages rather than developing gunpowder on its own.

I've stated earlier. Much of technology is luck, and copy-cat. They're working on gunpowder and, for now, mages will have to do.

[Inquisitor Arc]

Would it be possible to move families who want to live with their mage family member? What about allowing both templars and mages to have families. The Circles would turn into cities. Heavily guarded microcosms that might make things more bearable for both templars and mages.

[Auintus]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Would it be possible to move families who want to live with their mage family member? What about allowing both templars and mages to have families. The Circles would turn into cities. Heavily guarded microcosms that might make things more bearable for both templars and mages.

But then the issue encompasses whether a non-mage family member of a mage is allowed free access, perhaps trafficking X, Y, or Z. The templars would never accept it.