817 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Attempting to understand demons is different from allowing possession. I was intrigued by the desire demon in Broken Circle

That Senior Enchanter became an apostate exactly because of the demon.
That is not saying that demons shouldn't be studied, only that they are extremely insidious and manipulative.

They accept the demon, just for a moment, just for a power boost. And the demon doesn't let go. They can be taught to know better.

We're going in circles.
Yes, mages can be told of how dangerous demons are. But people are arrogant, people are greedy, people can lose control.
You tell me that you would never deal with a demon. That might even be true but the same doesn't apply to all.

So "guilty until proven innocent"?

It's not about guilt, it's about danger. Magic is inherently dangerous and there is nothing a mage can do to make himself not dangerous. So, we take steps to contain the danger just like we take forbid civillians from owning nuclear bombs.

Qunari use mages in war, just as much as humans do. Look at the devestating use the Arishok put the Saarebas to in Kirkwall. Human mages are better trained, which was able to compansate for the Qunari's technological superiority.

Vandicus explained it better than I did.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Qunari arrived a few hundred years before DA:O. Humanity is still relying on mages rather than developing gunpowder on its own.

I've stated earlier. Much of technology is luck, and copy-cat. They're working on gunpowder and, for now, mages will have to do.

Technology in general is not a result of luck. There are reasons why humanity regressed after the fall of Rome and why technology had advanced so much under Roman dominion. There are reasons why nearly half of the patents created each year are from the USA. It is not a result of simple luck. The dwarves have shown themselves to be interested in developing gunpowder, and the dwarves are the ones without mages. The humans on the other hands have in general not put too much effort or resources towards developing weapons to supplant mages.

*EDIT

For example, why hasn't carriage technology continued to advance? Because we have cars. The roles of technology that mages supplant will see limited development because the solution already exists. 

Modifié par Vandicus, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:33 .

[Auintus]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

That Senior Enchanter became an apostate exactly because of the demon.
That is not saying that demons shouldn't be studied, only that they are extremely insidious and manipulative.[/quote]
Because study of demons is not allowed in the Circles.

[quote][quote]
So "guilty until proven innocent"?[/quote]
It's not about guilt, it's about danger. Magic is inherently dangerous and there is nothing a mage can do to make himself not dangerous. So, we take steps to contain the danger just like we take forbid civillians from owning nuclear bombs.[/quote]
Steps taken, yes, but they don't have to be imprisoned for it. Hence the guilt. You are treating them as a criminal for being.
[/quote]

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

Technology in general is not a result of luck. There are reasons why humanity regressed after the fall of Rome and why technology had advanced so much under Roman dominion. There are reasons why nearly half of the patents created each year are from the USA. It is not a result of simple luck. The dwarves have shown themselves to be interested in developing gunpowder, and the dwarves are the ones without mages. The humans on the other hands have in general not put too much effort or resources towards developing weapons to supplant mages.

*EDIT

For example, why hasn't carriage technology continued to advance? Because we have cars. The roles of technology that mages supplant will see limited development because the solution already exists. 

In that age, it was. Who's lucky enough to have the right resources? Who's lucky enough to make the right thing go bang? Luck.
Now is a completely different story. It can't really be compared anymore.

Carraiges were replaced by cars. They are the same idea, but one is better. Mages are easier than developing explosives, but they are too few, especially for a prolonged war. Explosives would be easier to control and anyone could use them. It's only a matter of time. Duke Prosper was hoping for the Qunari's explosive recipe. Humans have interest.

[Plaintiff]

Vandicus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

Except that's false.

Thedas doesn't "rely heavily" on magic. Magic is already banned and never used, except when the Chantry says it's okay, which they hardly ever do. The vast majority of people have no access to it whatsoever.

Magic items make a mint in regular Thedas. Do you think that all those magic items being made are only for fighting? The eternal flames that mages create, for example, means that electricity and light bulbs are not very useful inventions(until they can be mass produced, but they'll not be invented in the first place so the technology to mass produce them will not follow for quite some time).

Moreover, the Tevinter Imperium ruled for quite some time. Much of their more famous creations were magically generated, meaning their rule was a period of technological stagnation.

So what if a society stagnates technologically? If magic already provides a solution, then what is the problem with relying on it? The fact that magic has risks? So does every single technology. And the more technology you develop, the greater risks you're going to find. We already have the power to destroy the world utterly with the push of a button. I'd like to see what magic does that can compare.

The risks of magic are equal to, if not less than its potential benefit. There is no reason to assume that Thedas would ever reach the same level of technological advancement as we have. Our sciences rely on the existence of certain things that simply may not be present in their world, just as Lyrium and the Fade are absent from ours.

Magic is not to blame for the stagnation of technological development. Rather, the Chantry is to blame for the stagnation of magical development.

[Plaintiff]

Vandicus wrote...
For example, why hasn't carriage technology continued to advance? Because we have cars. The roles of technology that mages supplant will see limited development because the solution already exists. 

Cars are carriage technology.

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Madness is madness, in the Circle or out.
But the Saarebas are still used. Quite well, if I recall correctly.

Mad mages in the Circle are less dangerous than mad mages out of the Circle.

Only as attack dogs. Qunari are more technologically advanced than humans exactly because they don't rely so heavily on magic so, they come up with different solutions such as gunpowder.

Except that's false.

Thedas doesn't "rely heavily" on magic. Magic is already banned and never used, except when the Chantry says it's okay, which they hardly ever do. The vast majority of people have no access to it whatsoever.

Magic items make a mint in regular Thedas. Do you think that all those magic items being made are only for fighting? The eternal flames that mages create, for example, means that electricity and light bulbs are not very useful inventions(until they can be mass produced, but they'll not be invented in the first place so the technology to mass produce them will not follow for quite some time).

Moreover, the Tevinter Imperium ruled for quite some time. Much of their more famous creations were magically generated, meaning their rule was a period of technological stagnation.

So what if a society stagnates technologically? If magic already provides a solution, then what is the problem with relying on it? The fact that magic has risks? So does every single technology. And the more technology you develop, the greater risks you're going to find. We already have the power to destroy the world utterly with the push of a button. I'd like to see what magic does that can compare.

The risks of magic are equal to, if not less than its potential benefit. There is no reason to assume that Thedas would ever reach the same level of technological advancement as we have. Our sciences rely on the existence of certain things that simply may not be present in their world, just as Lyrium and the Fade are absent from ours.

Magic is not to blame for the stagnation of technological development. Rather, the Chantry is to blame for the stagnation of magical development.

Because it stops or slows technological development beyond the power of magic(which is unclear in Thedas, but ultimately irrelevant to my point here). Technology is developed based on what has come before. We don't one day say, I've got this great idea, and produce a PC from scratch. Before a PC can be made electricity needs to enter widespread use, and if magic replaces the basic uses for electricity, electricity is never in place for more advanced uses. 

To make it a bit more abstract, say there's a technology A1 that magic replaces. Say that technology A2, A3, A4 and A5 all rely on the development of technology A1. Because magic eliminates the necessity of technology A1, technologies A2-A5 never develop, despite fufilling roles that magic could not. This is ultimately irrelevant in a modern scenario because resources exist to develop "useless" technology in the process of developing more advanced technology whereas in Thedas and our Medieval time periods any research was very limited in scope.

This is supported in historical instances as well. Living in harsher environments has frequently lead to faster technological development, despite the inherent disadvantages of the harsher environment. Necessity is the mother of invention after all.

You mention that we can destroy the world(effectively though not in the literal Death Star sense) with modern technology. If blood mages existed, they all could as well, by virtue of their mind control. Handing out this much power by virtue of birth is insane. Mind control is true unlimited power based solely on birth. A king or noble's power is at least limited by the obedience of their subjects(and I hope that you think their arbitrary power by birth is a bad thing as well), while a blood mage is an absolute tyrant, over mind and body. It'd only take a single power hungry blood mage to seize control of a nation were they able to enter the presence of a king and his court.

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
For example, why hasn't carriage technology continued to advance? Because we have cars. The roles of technology that mages supplant will see limited development because the solution already exists. 

Cars are carriage technology.

.

OK, I'll try a more obvious example. You may have heard much talk about electric cars in recent years. Electric cars were actually used over a hundred years ago, but were supplanted because of the plentitude of oil. Electric cars were the inferior option financially, so gasoline based  cars became the norm. As a result, electric cars did not advance much at all until very recently, when people began to seek alternatives to oil.

The existence of the gasoline powered car technology(which plays the role of magic here) slowed the development of electric cars.

[Plaintiff]

Vandicus wrote...
*snip*

You're working on the premise that magic is somehow antithetical to technology. This is false. There is no reason that magic cannot be part of advancing technology. In fact, magic and technology are the same thing.

Technology is just 'the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes'.

Science is just 'the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural'.

If magic exists as a natural force in the world of Thedas, then it can be studied scientifically, and the knowledge that is gained can be applied practically, thus creating technology.

You seem to be under the impression that if magic fulfills basic needs, then people will simply stop where they are and never develop further. It's already been explicitly shown in the games that this is not the case. We know from our own history that this is not the case. Our lives are full of technology that never actually needed to exist. Society got by just fine before computers came along, no matter how necessary you might think they are today.

You're also assuming that magic could only fulfill the basic functions of "technology", whatever those are, and never the more complex ones. If magic is able to fulfill the function of technology A1, then it may well be able to fulfill the function of technologies A2, A3, A4 and onwards. All that is required is further research and development, which the Chantry forbids.

Magic is not holding back the development of technology. In the world of Thedas, magic could be a great boon to the development of technology. In fact, magic is necessary, because magic and technology are one and the same.

The only things holding Thedas back are religious superstitions and political instability, the same things that delayed the Industrial Revolution in our own history, and have repeatedly tried to stifle new discoveries virtually every single time that one has been made. They are the reason that our own Middle Ages, as you yourself mention, were so scientifically stunted.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger. If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages.

Stronger?
Why not smarter. Lokcing up the mages is smart. Hence, brains wins over brawns.

And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak.

Actually tempalrs can handle mages. They have been doing that for hunderds of years.

Also, you a Darwinist now? Let the weak perish?

oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The grey Wardens are created by drinking darkspawn blood. Not much magic in blood drinking.
There is magical ritual involved really. the only exception is when the taint in the blood is dilluted (not strong enough) so they add some lyrium IIRC.
But usually they just drink strongly tained blood.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
SS? LOL. im all for a  "will to power" thinking which is very harsh but logical. If the mages ceased to exist right now all life on thedas will perish .

What? Lolno.
TheDas will go on fine without mages.

Its not the duty of the mages to protect the weak mundanes . I believe its the duty of the mundanes to become as powerful as the mages. when the darkspawn and demons are nothing more then a nuisance they have succeeded. Right now you templar supporters want to punish the mages for the faillings of the mundanes. And yet the mundanes refuse to evolve as they quite confortable in their own weakness. and the templar order and the chantry are instigators of this weakness. And such Its utterly immoral to support the templars because it will create a weak race that will for always be dependant on mages.

Refuse to evolve?
Punishing mages for mundanes weakness?

O.k., now I'm positive you'e just a massive troll.
No one can write things like this and be serious.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The powers are used. Their misuse is the problem, not their existance.

Actually when the very existence of said powers draws demons...yes, yes it does.
Even morso if those powers are very corruptive in nature.

They attract demons, but they can be dealt with.

Not easily and not without huge loss of life.

And yet good, well trained individuals keep falling prey to demons.
In their moment of weakness they let the demon in or are overpowered (and we ALL have moments of weakenss. No exception)

The only trained mage I've seen fall prey to demons was Uldred, and he wasn't exactly good.

Mages have been falling prey to demons since the begining.

Fluff-wise we already know that personality has little to no influence on it. Good mages may be less tempted, but they can still fall. And they do fall.

And Uldred and his ilk are proof why you idea doesn't work. Uldred had mentors. He had people that knew him.
And unsuprisinigly, so many kilelrs and criminals in Real Life have peopel that knew them and go "he would never do that".
But they do. People are fallible. People have moments of weakenss.
And you can never truly know them.

It's a solution derived of ALL logic.
Not only because magic is by several order of manginute more dangerous and abusable, but also because hackign off everyones limbs hurts EVERYONE. And also dooms everyone to die.
How do you expect anyone to eat or do any work without limbs....OR hack peoples limbs off in the first place?

Not my logic. I reason that magic is a part of who they are and can be controlled and utilized as any tool might. You seem to think that any possible threat must be locked up even if it is managable.
More dangerous, and more helpful. It is an order of magnitude greater in scale to both extremes.
It was an extreme example. Consider instead the removal of a tool, a very useful, but not absolutely necessary tool. Except that isn't quite accurate. Maybe there isn't an appropriate metaphor.

It is your logic because it is an example you brought and and decided to follow up to the illogical extreeme.
Deal with it.

Magic ins't as managable as you think it is. We see proof of it again and again, yet you insist on handwaving each and every isntance as "tempars/Chatnry fault" or "lack of training".

Not really.
For one, mages can resort ot magic and deamon dealing for many reasons, not only self-defense (case in point: Connor)
Also, mages can be killed like any other man if caught by surprise.

Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm. I am not suggesting that self-defense would be the only circumstance in which they would use magic. Just that it is a relevent one.
True, they can. But then the threat of possession is no greater than a possessed corpse.

Again with the "he was untraned, it would never have happened if he was".
How about some PROOF?
Not even the Word of God is enough for you poeple.
How many times must it be said that people fall all the time?

And the threat of poseesion is far greater, because demons are not drawn to corpses. And possesed corpses ar nohere near as dangerous.

I didn't start the metaphor. And a trained mage has just as much control over their magic as any gunner, safety swich or no.

Does a gunner have a gun glued to him all the time? Does a gunner get possesed?
No.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But they ARE a weapon that can go off at any second...as well as a thinking living human being.
They are both.
You cannot treat them just as B.
And they aren't treated just as A, otherwise there would be no circles. They would be leashed and collared and have no freedom AT ALL.

They aren't a bomb that would cause unholy destruction if allowed to walk around a town. That's the extreme of how they are treated. Yes, the Circles are far better than the Qunari's method, but they still treat mages first as a threat, second as a person. It can be done better.

Yes they are. Find me a mundane child that cna destroy a town- then, and only then, can we talk.
They are treated how any sensible governemnt would.
Preventions/safety first.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm.

Hardly the norm? Most kids with a sick relative would play Make-a-Wish foundation with a demon.
And then there's the adults who would use demons to get whatever they want in life. The people who lose control once and turn to demons.

There is an infinite number of justifications one can find for making deals with demons.

And how often does a powerful mage child have a deathly sick parent? If Isolde hadn't been a pain about it, Connor could have been trained and known better.
The only mages that accept deals with demons out of anything other than desperation are evil beyond redemption.
I've never justified demon-dealing. I've acknowledged why it occurs.

No, you really don't.

Life is full with meoments and opportunities for deamon deals.
Life is rife with desperation, especially in TheDas. Desease and sickneses were common, as is death and a hard work. Desire for changing things for the better, desire to get people to listen to you, a better station in life, etc, etc...

"A trained man would never do that". Yes, yes they would.
And you don't need a game to tell you that. Real Lfie is rife with examples.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger. If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages.

Stronger?
Why not smarter. Lokcing up the mages is smart. Hence, brains wins over brawns.

And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak.

Actually tempalrs can handle mages. They have been doing that for hunderds of years.

Also, you a Darwinist now? Let the weak perish?

oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The grey Wardens are created by drinking darkspawn blood. Not much magic in blood drinking.
There is magical ritual involved really. the only exception is when the taint in the blood is dilluted (not strong enough) so they add some lyrium IIRC.
But usually they just drink strongly tained blood.

I believe you have been told that mages ( and this is specifically been told by duncan) that you need a mage to magically prepare the blood. Your memory span is now offically lower then the average goldfish.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vandicus wrote...
The Circle is a mage-run education center. It is obligatory(but what modern education system isn't?) but mages who demonstrate sufficient personal responsibility and restraint are granted greater freedoms(such as being allowed to travel without monitors for senior mages). Mages can own property and accumulate great wealth, like the Lucretians. Now the Circles do have oversight problems and are not standardized in how mages are treated(nor do mages have a great deal of recourse should the Knight-Commander be corrupt), but they're also a free education, a higher standard of living, protection from the peasantry and others who would go on witch hunts, and a place of relative plenty and safety from the traditional dangers of the Medieval world.

Everyone is dangerous. But not everyone can cause a nation to go to war with the power of their mind. Not everyone can murder, rape, and pillage without any trace of their identity.

A thing to note is that a common citizen has just as little recourse should the noble lord, or guard commander or king be corrupt or a a jerk.
And they get none of the perks a mage gets.

Yet if people call for a mage rebellion because of "opression", why don't they call out for a wold-wide rebellion agaisnt everything?
The world of Thedas isn't perfect.
But then again, neither is our world of today with "democracy".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
They are watched like criminals for being born with magic. Yes, mages must be educated, the Circles must remain, but no mage I've seen is allowed to live free of the Circle. Wynne was an exception. And Wilhelm had the personal support of King Maric.

And so mages must be watched for the evil ones in their midst, but you condemn them all for the rare evil mage, and only cause more problems in the process.

It is you who don't undersant.
The danger of mages doesn't stem from only the "few" evil ones.
It stems from them all.
Good mages fall prey. Godo peopel make stupid mistakes. Good people have moments of weakness and stupidity.

Unless you have found a way to eliminate all such flaws from humanity?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
SS? LOL. im all for a  "will to power" thinking which is very harsh but logical. If the mages ceased to exist right now all life on thedas will perish .

What? Lolno.
TheDas will go on fine without mages.

Its not the duty of the mages to protect the weak mundanes . I believe its the duty of the mundanes to become as powerful as the mages. when the darkspawn and demons are nothing more then a nuisance they have succeeded. Right now you templar supporters want to punish the mages for the faillings of the mundanes. And yet the mundanes refuse to evolve as they quite confortable in their own weakness. and the templar order and the chantry are instigators of this weakness. And such Its utterly immoral to support the templars because it will create a weak race that will for always be dependant on mages.

Refuse to evolve?
Punishing mages for mundanes weakness?

O.k., now I'm positive you'e just a massive troll.
No one can write things like this and be serious.

Really lotion ignoring lore when it suits you so immature. i have seen 6 year olds who are better debaters.
And im death serious. Any general or head of state would look to fenris and **** their pants and hope that the tevinter imperium has no means of mass producing such soldiers. But Fenris is a symbol of the superiority and mastery of magic of the tevinter imperium . Everything withing the circle system is stagnant but their are factions outside it who are changing . its not a question if the current system is destroyed but when and more importantly by whom?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That Senior Enchanter became an apostate exactly because of the demon.
That is not saying that demons shouldn't be studied, only that they are extremely insidious and manipulative.

Because study of demons is not allowed in the Circles.

I fail to see how anything you just said counteracts the fact that  trained mages do fall prey to demons...all the time.

Steps taken, yes, but they don't have to be imprisoned for it. Hence the guilt. You are treating them as a criminal for being.

Yes they have.
Because that's the only step that actually is effective.

To you any solution that doesn't have mages roaming free is unacceptable, yet you fail to provide any "solution" that isn't reactive.

You know, templars mopping up AFTE the abominations has destroyed the village/town and killed hunders isn't a system that works.
Those 100 dead men, woman and children don't consider dying so that a mage can prance about acceptable.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
*snip*

You're working on the premise that magic is somehow antithetical to technology. This is false. There is no reason that magic cannot be part of advancing technology. In fact, magic and technology are the same thing.

It is not.

Technology is machinery created with knowledge of the laws of the universe.
Magic makes a mockery of those laws.

Of course, you can claim that magic is part of the laws of the universe since it exists. I say it's not.

The only things holding Thedas back are religious superstitions and political instability,
the same things that delayed the Industrial Revolution in our own history, and have repeatedly tried to stifle new discoveries virtually every single time that one has been made. They are the reason that our own Middle Ages, as you yourself mention, were so scientifically stunted.

Not really.
If it weren't for those "religious institutions" so much of the scientific knowledge would have be lost forever.
People are quick to blame religion (aka, the church) for scientific stagnation, when the reality is different.

After the fall of Rome the word descended back into barbarism. Technological progression is slow when you don't have time to experiment, since your entire day is wasted just surviving. When people have a lot of free time to tinkr and tink and experiment, that's when technology progresses.
Many great scientists were christian monks.
The Church didn't make people stupid or uneducated. The living conditions of the time did.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The grey Wardens are created by drinking darkspawn blood. Not much magic in blood drinking.
There is magical ritual involved really. the only exception is when the taint in the blood is dilluted (not strong enough) so they add some lyrium IIRC.
But usually they just drink strongly tained blood.

I believe you have been told that mages ( and this is specifically been told by duncan) that you need a mage to magically prepare the blood. Your memory span is now offically lower then the average goldfish.

And that falls under the "darkspawn blood with weak taint" thing.
Usually Grey Wardens drink archdemon blood, which they collect after slaying one.

Duncan didn't have acess to it at Ostagar, so a weaker source of taint was used. Hence why lyrium was added.
Again, you only need a mage if you can't be bothered to go get archdemon blood from the stores.
The lyrium just increases the potency of the taint.

And your reasoning capacity is now officialy lower than that of an amoeba.
Have a nice day.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

The grey Wardens are created by drinking darkspawn blood. Not much magic in blood drinking.
There is magical ritual involved really. the only exception is when the taint in the blood is dilluted (not strong enough) so they add some lyrium IIRC.
But usually they just drink strongly tained blood.

I believe you have been told that mages ( and this is specifically been told by duncan) that you need a mage to magically prepare the blood. Your memory span is now offically lower then the average goldfish.

And that falls under the "darkspawn blood with weak taint" thing.
Usually Grey Wardens drink archdemon blood, which they collect after slaying one.

Duncan didn't have acess to it at Ostagar, so a weaker source of taint was used. Hence why lyrium was added.
Again, you only need a mage if you can't be bothered to go get archdemon blood from the stores.
The lyrium just increases the potency of the taint.

And your reasoning capacity is now officialy lower than that of an amoeba.
Have a nice day.

Lotion all grey wardens drink a drop of archdemon blood along wiht the usual darkspawn blood.. Riordan specifically tells you that he cannot create more grey wardens because he no longer has access to archdemon blood. You and emperor really like your little fanfics do you? Its in the wiki and in the game. And you still need a mage to create the elixer.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:14 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

After the fall of Rome the word descended back into barbarism. Technological progression is slow when you don't have time to experiment, since your entire day is wasted just surviving. When people have a lot of free time to tinkr and tink and experiment, that's when technology progresses.
Many great scientists were christian monks.
The Church didn't make people stupid or uneducated. The living conditions of the time did.

What a bunch of bs. The church hoarded knowledge . they never translated the books from latin to any of the medieval languages. The result was the middle class end even the nobility could not understand what was in the books or even the bible. this causes massive amount of stagnation. Not to mention that the church did oppose researchers that went against church dogma like Copernicus.

[Archyyy]

I wouldnt expect logic from religious people.

The chantry and most religious people mostly hates mages despite often denying it so they just want them out of sight. Im hoping for some possibilities to strongly oppose to chantry in DA3. If i cant destroy them I want to prevent their religious crap from affecting society.

Off topic but got to throw in my two cents.

DKJaigen wrote...

What a bunch of bs. The church hoarded knowledge . they never translated the books from latin to any of the medieval languages. The result was the middle class end even the nobility could not understand what was in the books or even the bible. this causes massive amount of stagnation. Not to mention that the church did oppose researchers that went against church dogma like Copernicus.

Didnt read very far into the debate but go to agree with DKJaigen here. Monks werent scientists and the church prevented research in the fear that it might question the christian dogma. Monks did do research but within very strict bounds and no real scientific breakthrough were made by monks. They concentrated in christianity and if they did progress something secular it was very trivial. They were authors and brew wines and ales, made cheeses etc.

So what little knowledge the church had it hoarded and prevented any actual scientists from doing their research by either killing them or scaring them to stop. They never progressed science or society.

Modifié par Archyyy, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:48 .