817 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

[quote]Auintus wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

That Senior Enchanter became an apostate exactly because of the demon.
That is not saying that demons shouldn't be studied, only that they are extremely insidious and manipulative.[/quote]
Because study of demons is not allowed in the Circles.[/quote]Sure it was.  Just not by mages.  The Templars had extensive knowledge on demons.  Mainly focused on how to recognize, combat and destroy them.  As it should be.

[quote][quote][quote]
So "guilty until proven innocent"?[/quote]
It's not about guilt, it's about danger. Magic is inherently dangerous and there is nothing a mage can do to make himself not dangerous. So, we take steps to contain the danger just like we take forbid civillians from owning nuclear bombs.[/quote]
Steps taken, yes, but they don't have to be imprisoned for it. Hence the guilt. You are treating them as a criminal for being.[/quote][/quote]Mages were not imprisoned, they were consigned to Circles.  The restrictions mages would face and the incarceration criminals face are distinct in terms the nature of the confinement, who it may be applied to, and especially the purpose behind it.   Those things matter.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:09 .

[hawat333]

And let's be honest, these restrictions were pretty reasonable. Just look at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Look at it!
Of course the solution to keep them (and the outside world) safe was part of the reasons things went to hell, but it didn't take a lot of effort to almost let the world being ran over with demons and abominations.

[Archyyy]

hawat333 wrote...

And let's be honest, these restrictions were pretty reasonable. Just look at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Look at it!
Of course the solution to keep them (and the outside world) safe was part of the reasons things went to hell, but it didn't take a lot of effort to almost let the world being ran over with demons and abominations.

The reason things went to hell with the circle is because Uldred wanted to give mages more freedom. And I agreed with the guy. His intentions were good. If they werent oppressed by the chantry and templars to begin with things wouldve been fine.

Mages need to be taught how to use magic and resist demons and supervised but not imprisoned and ruled over by the chantry. There needs to be supervision but by the state, not the church. Theyre biased and hateful. And they dont need to be separated from their families and dont need to give up their life. The best option is teaching and supervision. Not imprisonment and oppression. Demons cant possess mages unless the mage lets them and I dont think any mage would willingly give himself up. If so he can be destroyed but that doesnt justify doing what the chantry does.

Modifié par Archyyy, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[Archyyy]

Double post.

Modifié par Archyyy, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is not.

Technology is machinery created with knowledge of the laws of the universe.

Merriam-Webster disagrees.

Magic makes a mockery of those laws.

Whose laws?

Of course, you can claim that magic is part of the laws of the universe since it exists. I say it's not.

Buddy, I can claim that grass is green and water is wet, and you will disagree.

If it exists in the universe, then it is part of the natural order of things, and there is no way around that.

Not really.
If it weren't for those "religious institutions" so much of the scientific knowledge would have be lost forever.

"Scientific knowledge" like what? Examples please. What pathetic scraps did the Catholic Church choose to save from the bonfires of "heretical" texts?

People are quick to blame religion (aka, the church) for scientific stagnation, when the reality is different.

Except it's not, and if the major religious institutions were ever patrons of the sciences, they sure as hell aren't anymore.

After the fall of Rome the word descended back into barbarism.

And the Catholic Church rose to phenomenal power and influence! Coincidence?

Technological progression is slow when you don't have time to experiment, since your entire day is wasted just surviving. When people have a lot of free time to tinkr and tink and experiment, that's when technology progresses.

It would've progressed a lot easier without religious institutions placing astronomers under house arrest for daring to contradict the Bible. And that's just one well-known example of the Catholic Church trying to stifle scientific research and debate.

The Church progressed science very slightly, when it benefitted them to do so, and any research that contradicted their moldy collection of fairy tales was ruled as heresy.

Many great scientists were christian monks.

Because religious leaders were among the extreme minority of people who got any education at all. Funny how that works.

The Church didn't make people stupid or uneducated. The living conditions of the time did.

And the Church is not culpable in the creation and maintenance of those living conditions? It absolutely was.

It deliberately hoarded wealth and knowledge to itself, because it suited the organization to keep the populace ignorant, and unable to question their doctrine. It suited them to have a totally uneducated, gullible peasantry, because it made it that much easier to sell them indulgences, or convince them to march across the world to die in a pointless war over a scrap of land that some madman claimed was "holy", or to avoid divine punishment by donating what little they had to con artists who already lived far more comfortably than they.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:38 .

[thibaut72]

Everytime, the problem is fear : fear in what a mage can do, fear about a templar can do, fear about what the Chantry didn't say or hide to everyone.

If magic is so powerful and dangerous, why the world didn't collapse in the last centuries ? Of course there are minor evenment where some mage became insane and a danger for the mundane, but it's also true for the darkspawn and some dictatorial government who thought they could erase a civilization from Thedas (Orlais and Tevinter against Dalish). Don't you think it's a little too extrem ?

Religions (in Thedas and Earth) have always their origin from a need of the society. Some good principles are made to found this religion. But after, there are always Men who interprete and want more for this religion and preach that it's always better than anything else. In name of religion (even if it was not told in the principle), you can kill, enslave, and do everything you want. And it's more easy if you have a lot of followers.

I think Mage only want more freedom, like go and see their family, visit some country and so on... as everyone in Thedas can do. I think Templar just want to do their job, as magic policeman, and be here if some problem occur to mage. But if you use your power to size the other side (as in Kirkwall), the resulting is war... Noone can use the power given by law or by God, to do everything he want ; "Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him" is true for magic, but it's also true for the power given by law.

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...
Sure it was.  Just not by mages.  The Templars had extensive knowledge on demons.  Mainly focused on how to recognize, combat and destroy them.  As it should be.

And a fat lot of good it's done them so far.

Mages were not imprisoned, they were consigned to Circles. The restrictions mages would face and the incarceration criminals face are distinct in terms the nature of the confinement, who it may be applied to, and especially the purpose behind it. Those things matter.

Consignment is imprisonment.  If you're put in an area and forbidden from leaving it, then you're imprisoned. You can dress it up however you like, but it's imprisonment.

The attitude of the Chantry and the Templars makes it perfectly clear that the mages are their go-to scapegoats.

Mages are blamed for a "crime" committed thousands of years prior to their birth, by people unconnected to them, about which the details are sketchy at best.

Mages are blamed for the existence of "evil" generally and darkspawn in particular, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence to connect them to either of these things.

Mages are blamed for any unfortunate incident ranging from bad weather to the accidental death of a child.

There is nothing even slightly acceptable about the way mages are treated.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[thibaut72]

hawat333 wrote...

And let's be honest, these restrictions were pretty reasonable. Just look at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Look at it!
Of course the solution to keep them (and the outside world) safe was part of the reasons things went to hell, but it didn't take a lot of effort to almost let the world being ran over with demons and abominations.

I saw the circle of Ferelden, and i only see a man devoured by his selfish wish of power. Did Uldred only think a little about the other mage ? Or just he want to make them powerful soldiers of his army ? Do you really think that to succomb to your pride or your desire, will let you have something more ?
Of course, discuss and make compromises is harder and take more time, but it's always the safiest way. Noone can decide that his selfish wish are the wish of everyone.

[BlueMagitek]

thibaut72 wrote...

I think Mage only want more freedom, like go and see their family, visit some country and so on... as everyone in Thedas can do. I think Templar just want to do their job, as magic policeman, and be here if some problem occur to mage. But if you use your power to size the other side (as in Kirkwall), the resulting is war... Noone can use the power given by law or by God, to do everything he want ; "Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him" is true for magic, but it's also true for the power given by law.

The only people in Thedas with freedom are the nobility, and then the upper nobility.  Elves in the Alienage live in poverty, suffer constant abuse from the guards and nobility (with no system at all in place for them) in addition to the everyday racism they face from human commoners. 

The Dwarves are held to a caste system with the casteless having the option of the Legion of the Dead, the Surface, getting pregant with the right gender or the Carta.  Not so much freedom there. They also suffer abuse and can't move around as they please.

Even humans commoners don't have complete freedom.  They're more or less at the complete mercy of their lords.  

Where is this complete freedom that everyone seems to have but the Mages?

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
Sure it was.  Just not by mages.  The Templars had extensive knowledge on demons.  Mainly focused on how to recognize, combat and destroy them.  As it should be.

And a fat lot of good it's done them so far.

Since the Templar Order spent about 1000 years acting, with a fair degree of success, as Thedas' main bulwark against all forms of demonic influence, I'd say that it did them (and everyone else) quite a bit of good indeed.

Mages were not imprisoned, they were consigned to Circles. The restrictions mages would face and the incarceration criminals face are distinct in terms the nature of the confinement, who it may be applied to, and especially the purpose behind it. Those things matter.

Consignment is imprisonment.  If you're put in an area and forbidden from leaving it, then you're imprisoned. You can dress it up however you like, but it's imprisonment.

It's not dressing anything up,  I'm just tellin' it like it is.  Consignement (such as mages faced) is quite distinct from incarceration (such as criminals face).  So much so that refering to mages as being "imprisoned" isn't really accurate at all.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[thibaut72]

Even elves in the alienage, dwarves and human commoner have more right than mage... They are free to move everywhere, even if they don't have money or time to do it ! But if your family live the house next to yours, you can go and see them, the mage never can !

Of course, there are a lot of thing that can be reform in each society, as well that reform is need for mage. (Thedas rules by Dalish ? lol)

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...
Since the Templar Order spend about 1000 years acting, with a fair degree of success, as Thedas' main bulwark against all forms of demonic influence, I'd say that it did them (and everyone else) quite a bit of good indeed.

We only have their word for it that the world was in a worse state prior to their inception, and we only have their word for it that things would be worse if they didn't exist. I believe the evidence of my own eyes. When the games show me a competent Templar that doesn't rely on me to do his job for him, I'll believe that such a thing exists.

It's not dressing anything up,  I'm just tellin' it like it is.  Consignement (such as mages faced) is quite distinct from incarceration (such as criminals face).  So much so that refering to mages as being "imprisoned" isn't really accurate at all.

It's completely accurate, the minor details are irrelevent.

If a child is abducted, then it doesn't matter if his captors are abusive or kind, he does not become "more" abducted or "less" abducted based on their treatment of him. Imprisonment is a binary state. You're either imprisoned or you aren't, the specifics of your imprisonment do not make a difference to that fact.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[BlueMagitek]

thibaut72 wrote...

Even elves in the alienage, dwarves and human commoner have more right than mage... They are free to move everywhere, even if they don't have money or time to do it ! But if your family live the house next to yours, you can go and see them, the mage never can !

Of course, there are a lot of thing that can be reform in each society, as well that reform is need for mage. (Thedas rules by Dalish ? lol)

No, no they aren't.  Dwarf casteless can only go to the Legion (Deep Roads) or to the Surface (they can't go back).  The same holds true for all dwarves who go to the surface.  They lose their Stone sense.  And once again, elves and humans (especially elves) are subject to the abuses of the nobility, and the system in place to protect them is often ignored.

Mages can leave the tower at a certain point.  All Wynne needed was the First Enchanter's permission.  Not even the Knight Commander's.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Lotion all grey wardens drink a drop of archdemon blood along wiht the usual darkspawn blood.. Riordan specifically tells you that he cannot create more grey wardens because he no longer has access to archdemon blood. You and emperor really like your little fanfics do you? Its in the wiki and in the game. And you still need a mage to create the elixer.

Nope. Who's fanficing here?

You need darkspawn blood with a sufficient potency of taint. That is it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

After the fall of Rome the word descended back into barbarism. Technological progression is slow when you don't have time to experiment, since your entire day is wasted just surviving. When people have a lot of free time to tinkr and tink and experiment, that's when technology progresses.
Many great scientists were christian monks.
The Church didn't make people stupid or uneducated. The living conditions of the time did.

What a bunch of bs. The church hoarded knowledge . they never translated the books from latin to any of the medieval languages. The result was the middle class end even the nobility could not understand what was in the books or even the bible. this causes massive amount of stagnation. Not to mention that the church did oppose researchers that went against church dogma like Copernicus.

Now you're just being silly.

Books WERE written in other languages.
However, I must remind you that latin was the language of the learned back then and there there were no printing presses yet, so every copy or translation required manually writing down each page. That was a LOT of work and was a slow process, os books were not as numerous nor did they spread as fast.
Furthermore, most people were illiterate and couldnt read on any language.

But you insist of claiming it's all because of the Church.

Either way, your irrational hatered of the Church has no bearing on the Circle dillema, so drop this line of resoning before this turns ugly(er).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Archyyy wrote...

I wouldnt expect logic from religious people.

Don't go there bub. Just don't.

You just make yourself look extreemly condescending and stupid.

DKJaigen wrote...
Didnt read very far into the debate but go to agree with DKJaigen here. Monks werent scientists and the church prevented research in the fear that it might question the christian dogma. Monks did do research but within very strict bounds and no real scientific breakthrough were made by monks. They concentrated in christianity and if they did progress something secular it was very trivial. They were authors and brew wines and ales, made cheeses etc.

So what little knowledge the church had it hoarded and prevented any actual scientists from doing their research by either killing them or scaring them to stop. They never progressed science or society.

So very, very wrong. Provably so. Quite many of the early scientists were monks or priests - few people are actually aware of that.

Also, overblowing the sanctioning of some scinetists to claim all science was supressed is idiotic.

How often does realy history suffer because of stupid myths/propaganda like this?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Archyyy wrote...
Mages need to be taught how to use magic and resist demons and supervised but not imprisoned and ruled over by the chantry. There needs to be supervision but by the state, not the church. Theyre biased and hateful. And they dont need to be separated from their families and dont need to give up their life. The best option is teaching and supervision. Not imprisonment and oppression. Demons cant possess mages unless the mage lets them and I dont think any mage would willingly give himself up. If so he can be destroyed but that doesnt justify doing what the chantry does.

Sez the guy who claim religious people are incapable of logic and who wants to destroy and oppose religion.

Geez..sound a lot like bias and hate.

I'd laugh at the irony (and hypocrisy) if it weren't so sad.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Buddy, I can claim that grass is green and water is wet, and you will disagree.

If it exists in the universe, then it is part of the natural order of things, and there is no way around that.

I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.
As far as I'm concerend you can think that souls are also part of the natural world.

And the Catholic Church rose to phenomenal power and influence! Coincidence?

Nope.
People turn to religion even more in dark times, and after the fall of Rome, times were dark indeed.

It would've progressed a lot easier without religious institutions placing astronomers under house arrest for daring to contradict the Bible. And that's just one well-known example of the Catholic Church trying to stifle scientific research and debate.

One example. Overblown, overused. Presented as standard. Viewed from one side and one side only.

The Church didn't make people stupid or uneducated. The living conditions of the time did.

And the Church is not culpable in the creation and maintenance of those living conditions? It absolutely was.

No, it wasn't.
Unless it was the Church that caused famines and destroyed civilization.
Which it wasn't.

So no, the Church did not create or mantain those living conditions.
It did it's best to help the people

It deliberately hoarded wealth and knowledge to itself, because it suited the organization to keep the populace ignorant, and unable to question their doctrine. It suited them to have a totally uneducated, gullible peasantry, because it made it that much easier to sell them indulgences, or convince them to march across the world to die in a pointless war over a scrap of land that some madman claimed was "holy", or to avoid divine punishment by donating what little they had to con artists who already lived far more comfortably than they.

I see where this is going.

Chruch preserves knowledge - it MUST be because they want it only for themselves
Corrupt priest - it MUST have been the plan of hte church all along
Crusade - surely the ONLY reason why anyone would go to war is pure evil. The fact that there is an enemy that's conquering and subjugating and clearly wants to end your culture surely has ntohing to do with it.



You see event A and immediatly claim dark motives behind them. You do not care how event  A came
to be. You do not care waht caused it, what sequence of events and
actions brought it into place. You do not care if htere can be multiple
explanations or reasons for action A.

You only care for how it
falls into your narrow view of the world and you only accept the
explanations that reinforces it, dismissing all others and not even
considering them for a second.
Truly sad.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

We only have their word for it that the world was in a worse state prior to their inception[/qutoe]

We have WoG.



[quote]
[quote]It's not dressing anything up,  I'm just tellin' it like it is.  Consignement (such as mages faced) is quite distinct from incarceration (such as criminals face).  So much so that refering to mages as being "imprisoned" isn't really accurate at all.[/quote]It's completely accurate, the minor details are irrelevent.

If a child is abducted, then it doesn't matter if his captors are abusive or kind, he does not become "more" abducted or "less" abducted based on their treatment of him. Imprisonment is a binary state. You're either imprisoned or you aren't, the specifics of your imprisonment do not make a difference to that fact.[/quote]

So..by your logic quarantene is imprisoment and is unjust.
you hear it here first folks!

Plaitiff is going to grab a gun and storm the quaranteened town, killing the evil soldiers and freeing the innocent poepel opressed in there.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

They attract demons, but they can be dealt with.

Not easily and not without huge loss of life.

Sure they can. I dealt with Mouse and no one died. It's a matter of understanding the bigger picture and what you risk when dealing with demons. Rejecting them from the very begining.

Mages have been falling prey to demons since the begining.

Fluff-wise we already know that personality has little to no influence on it. Good mages may be less tempted, but they can still fall. And they do fall.

And Uldred and his ilk are proof why you idea doesn't work. Uldred had mentors. He had people that knew him.
And unsuprisinigly, so many kilelrs and criminals in Real Life have peopel that knew them and go "he would never do that".
But they do. People are fallible. People have moments of weakenss.
And you can never truly know them.

Any intelligent mage knows that the birth of an abomination is never worth what they give you. If mages were made to understand the implications of that, no one would turn to demons, unless they were evil. Use blood magic, under very controlled circumstances. Dig around in their heads, search for corruption. These "evaluators" would never be able to leave the Circle, but I'm sure some mages would be content to remain if it meant rooting out the evil and the weak.

It is your logic because it is an example you brought and and decided to follow up to the illogical extreeme.
Deal with it.

Magic ins't as managable as you think it is. We see proof of it again and again, yet you insist on handwaving each and every isntance as "tempars/Chatnry fault" or "lack of training".

Magic is a tool in the hands of mages. If they are trained to control it, then it is under control. I don't handwave anything. All ills that you tie to magic are the result of lack of training or misjudging human nature, something an appropriate use of blood magic could check.

Again with the "he was untraned, it would never have happened if he was".
How about some PROOF?
Not even the Word of God is enough for you poeple.
How many times must it be said that people fall all the time?

And the threat of poseesion is far greater, because demons are not drawn to corpses. And possesed corpses ar nohere near as dangerous.

I can't prove it. The series has, so far, only shown mages who fall, because, honestly, it would be boring otherwise. Word of God is enough for me, if you could point me in the right direction. But if it is merely your interpretation of events...
True, possessed corpses are not as dangerous. But a living mage can choose to reject demonic influence.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

They aren't a bomb that would cause unholy destruction if allowed to walk around a town. That's the extreme of how they are treated. Yes, the Circles are far better than the Qunari's method, but they still treat mages first as a threat, second as a person. It can be done better.

Yes they are. Find me a mundane child that cna destroy a town- then, and only then, can we talk.
They are treated how any sensible governemnt would.
Preventions/safety first.

No they aren't. A mage isn't going to erupt into flames during a midday stroll through the town. Control is possible. Capability is not inevitability. A mage could, that doesn't mean they will.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

And how often does a powerful mage child have a deathly sick parent? If Isolde hadn't been a pain about it, Connor could have been trained and known better.
The only mages that accept deals with demons out of anything other than desperation are evil beyond redemption.
I've never justified demon-dealing. I've acknowledged why it occurs.

No, you really don't.

Life is full with meoments and opportunities for deamon deals.
Life is rife with desperation, especially in TheDas. Desease and sickneses were common, as is death and a hard work. Desire for changing things for the better, desire to get people to listen to you, a better station in life, etc, etc...

"A trained man would never do that". Yes, yes they would.
And you don't need a game to tell you that. Real Lfie is rife with examples.

Not trained in use of magic, but trained in it's effects. "Educated" may be a more accurate word. Understanding the hell that an abomination poses to the world. No rational human being would deal with a demon.
If any real person would willingly become a threat to a city for one wish, then humanity as a whole is beyond redemption and should be burned to ash, so the world may start again. But I don't believe that, I can't

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is you who don't undersant.
The danger of mages doesn't stem from only the "few" evil ones.
It stems from them all.
Good mages fall prey. Godo peopel make stupid mistakes. Good people have moments of weakness and stupidity.

Unless you have found a way to eliminate all such flaws from humanity?

A good, educated mage would rather die than threaten thousands. The untrained and uneducated make stupid mistakes.

Education. Mages must understand that their power is not a plaything. They hold themselves to a higher standard, and, if trained from birth, they can. The Circles as they are focus on how to use their powers, not why. Therein lies the problem.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That Senior Enchanter became an apostate exactly because of the demon.
That is not saying that demons shouldn't be studied, only that they are extremely insidious and manipulative.

Because study of demons is not allowed in the Circles.

I fail to see how anything you just said counteracts the fact that  trained mages do fall prey to demons...all the time.

He didn't fall prey. He wanted to understand. Note it said apostate, not abomination.

Steps taken, yes, but they don't have to be imprisoned for it. Hence the guilt. You are treating them as a criminal for being.

Yes they have.
Because that's the only step that actually is effective.

To you any solution that doesn't have mages roaming free is unacceptable, yet you fail to provide any "solution" that isn't reactive.

You know, templars mopping up AFTE the abominations has destroyed the village/town and killed hunders isn't a system that works.
Those 100 dead men, woman and children don't consider dying so that a mage can prance about acceptable.

I wrote out a system for this earlier. Once again, I refuse to believe that every single mage, if not bound to the Circle, would become an abomination.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As far as I'm concerend you can think that souls are also part of the natural world.

I don't. Magic is part of the natural world of Thedas. It is not a "mockery" of anything, it occurs naturally, like rain.

One example. Overblown, overused. Presented as standard. Viewed from one side and one side only.

It is standard, and it occurs today. Religions derive their authority from the holy texts that form the basis for their doctrine, if research produces knowledge that contradicts those holy texts, as Heliocentrism did, then they're going to try to suppress it or denounce it as false. The Catholic Church did it, The Chantry does it. Modern churches do it.

No, it wasn't.
Unless it was the Church that caused famines and destroyed civilization.
Which it wasn't.

So no, the Church did not create or mantain those living conditions.
It did it's best to help the people

Oh, I see.

So when the church sold ignorant peasants scraps of paper that would absolve them of their sins, it was being helpful.

When it goaded them to sail halfway across the world to die in a strange land for no good reason, it was being helpful.

When it abused and executed people that dared to speak up against it, it was being helpful.

Poor, poor religion, why doesn't anybody understand you?

I see where this is going.

Chruch preserves knowledge - it MUST be because they want it only for themselves

Well they sure as hell weren't sharing it. Where are the schools that the medieval church established? That's right they didn't exist! The only way to access the knowledge was to become a member of the religious order itself, an option that only existed for the children of nobility, who could afford the requisite donations in order to join the club.

Corrupt priest - it MUST have been the plan of hte church all along

Indulgences and tithing were widespread practices, endorsed by the Pope, they were not the actions of a single corrupt priest.

Crusade - surely the ONLY reason why anyone would go to war is pure evil. The fact that there is an enemy that's conquering and subjugating and clearly wants to end your culture surely has ntohing to do with it.

The stated goal of the Crusades was to "restore Christianity to Jerusalem". That is the official reason, as announced by the Catholic Church itself.

The actual reason was because the Byzantine Empire had asked for aid in its war with the Seljuk Turks, a war that had virtually nothing to do with the Catholic Church, or the people of Western Europe, except that it was occuring in the general vicinity of a city they held to be sacred, which most of them had never even seen.

The Seljuk Turks never invaded Western Europe, and there's no evidence that they had any plans to do so. They were an expansionist power, yes, but so was the Byzantine Empire, and so was the Catholic Church, they were not any more justified in their actions than the Turks were.

You see event A and immediatly claim dark motives behind them. You do not care how event  A came
to be. You do not care waht caused it, what sequence of events and
actions brought it into place. You do not care if htere can be multiple
explanations or reasons for action A.

No, actually, it's the exact opposite, I see dark motives because I research the history behind specific events, and because I have a basic grasp of logic. People are rarely altruistic, and greed has been a common motivation throughout history.

You only care for how it
falls into your narrow view of the world and you only accept the
explanations that reinforces it, dismissing all others and not even
considering them for a second.
Truly sad.

How can I dismiss alternate explanations? You haven't provided any. You tell me they exist, but you don't tell me what they are. I have actually asked you to share them, and you haven't.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .