817 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We have WoG.

Show me the quote, then.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So..by your logic quarantene is imprisoment and is unjust.

Yes, quarantine is a form of imprisonment.

I never said that all forms of imprisonment are "unjust", you are just making things up.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...

Since the Templar Order spend about 1000 years acting, with a fair degree of success, as Thedas' main bulwark against all forms of demonic influence, I'd say that it did them (and everyone else) quite a bit of good indeed.

We only have their word for it that the world was in a worse state prior to their inception, and we only have their word for it that things would be worse if they didn't exist. I believe the evidence of my own eyes. When the games show me a competent Templar that doesn't rely on me to do his job for him, I'll believe that such a thing exists.

By that standard the competent people in all Thedas could be counted on one hand with fingers left over.  We were indeed given a general impression of what life was like in Thedas before the Circles and it was indeed quite a bit worse, most particularly for mages.

It's not dressing anything up,  I'm just tellin' it like it is.  Consignement (such as mages faced) is quite distinct from incarceration (such as criminals face).  So much so that refering to mages as being "imprisoned" isn't really accurate at all.

It's completely accurate, the minor details are irrelevent.

If a child is abducted, then it doesn't matter if his captors are abusive or kind, he does not become "more" abducted or "less" abducted based on their treatment of him. Imprisonment is a binary state. You're either imprisoned or you aren't, the specifics of your imprisonment do not make a difference to that fact.

That simply is not so.  The details are neither minor, nor irrelevant. 

There are in fact many types of confinement that do not necessarily qualify as imprisonment.  If a man with a communicable illness is confined to a hospital, he is not being imprisoned, he is being quarantined.  If a dog is penned up in the yard, it is not being imprisoned, it is being confined for its own good.  If a dangerous chemical is locked away, it is not being imprisoned, it is being secured.  Whether you wish to have a productive discussion, or you wish to reach a solid conclusion, you must first gain an accurate appreciation of the matter at hand.

[Pyce]

I don't know if this has been mention but before the mage's held a semi-revolt and became the circle under watch of the templars. They did serve man by using magic to light candles and do odd jobs around the chantry.

But then they revolted and barricaded themselves in somewhere. Instead of killing them all the chantry consigned to having them quarantined off under the watch of the templars where they could learn and practice magic under the constraint of it is used to serve man and not to rule over him.

Modifié par Pyce, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Navasha]

Magic is meant to serve man....

Reminds me of an old Twilight zone episode... To Serve Man...

(Hint: dinner is involved)

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...

Since the Templar Order spend about 1000 years acting, with a fair degree of success, as Thedas' main bulwark against all forms of demonic influence, I'd say that it did them (and everyone else) quite a bit of good indeed.

We only have their word for it that the world was in a worse state prior to their inception, and we only have their word for it that things would be worse if they didn't exist. I believe the evidence of my own eyes. When the games show me a competent Templar that doesn't rely on me to do his job for him, I'll believe that such a thing exists.

By that standard the competent people in all Thedas could be counted on one hand with fingers left over.  We were indeed given a general impression of what life was like in Thedas before the Circles and it was indeed quite a bit worse, most particularly for mages.

It's not dressing anything up,  I'm just tellin' it like it is.  Consignement (such as mages faced) is quite distinct from incarceration (such as criminals face).  So much so that refering to mages as being "imprisoned" isn't really accurate at all.

It's completely accurate, the minor details are irrelevent.

If a child is abducted, then it doesn't matter if his captors are abusive or kind, he does not become "more" abducted or "less" abducted based on their treatment of him. Imprisonment is a binary state. You're either imprisoned or you aren't, the specifics of your imprisonment do not make a difference to that fact.

That simply is not so.  The details are neither minor, nor irrelevant. 

There are in fact many types of confinement that do not necessarily qualify as imprisonment.  If a man with a communicable illness is confined to a hospital, he is not being imprisoned, he is being quarantined.  If a dog is penned up in the yard, it is not being imprisoned, it is being confined for its own good.  If a dangerous chemical is locked away, it is not being imprisoned, it is being secured.  Whether you wish to have a productive discussion, or you wish to reach a solid conclusion, you must first gain an accurate appreciation of the matter at hand.

What you describe are still all forms of imprisonment.

At no point did I say that all forms of imprisonment are "bad".

My appreciation of the situation at hand is extremely accurate. The mages are imprisoned, and it's not for their own good so much as it is for the good of the Chantry.

The particular system by which the Circle operates is bad imprisonment. It is inherently abusive, it is governed by a hypocritical faction that has a well-established religious bias against its charges. It does not acheive its own stated goals.

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is you who don't undersant.
The danger of mages doesn't stem from only the "few" evil ones.
It stems from them all.
Good mages fall prey. Godo peopel make stupid mistakes. Good people have moments of weakness and stupidity.

Unless you have found a way to eliminate all such flaws from humanity?

A good, educated mage would rather die than threaten thousands. The untrained and uneducated make stupid mistakes.

Education. Mages must understand that their power is not a plaything. They hold themselves to a higher standard, and, if trained from birth, they can. The Circles as they are focus on how to use their powers, not why. Therein lies the problem.

Education is not a panacea.  You also need an institutional enforcement mechanism in place that not only makes sure that the education takes place but is also capable of dealing with cases where "education" either fails or proves to be insufficient and/or irrelevant.  Hence the Templar Order.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

What you describe are still all forms of imprisonment.

Only as hyperbole.

At no point did I say that all forms of imprisonment are "bad".

Of course they aren't.

My appreciation of the situation at hand is extremely accurate. The
mages are imprisoned, and it's not for their own good so much as it is
for the good of the Chantry.

Mages are just ordinary (ie flawed) people with extraordinary powers.  As such they are subject to much the same faults and failings as everyone else only with far greater temptations and much more dire consequences.  Thus insulating mages from the ugly realities of daily life in Thedas was very much for their own good.

The particular system by which the Circle operates is bad imprisonment. It is inherently abusive, it is governed by a hypocritical faction that has a well-established religious bias against its charges. It does not acheive its own stated goals.

The Circles were not inherently abusive, rather entrenchment of authority and lack of oversight made them inherently open to abuse.  That's another important distinction to make.  No matter what anyone might say about the Templars, the fact remains that they provided a critical service for the people of Thedas.  And the "stated goals" of the Circles where high-minded ideals which are, by nature, unachievable.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We have WoG.

Show me the quote, then.

One of the Mages vs. Templars threads.
DG said Thedas was more dangerous before the Circles.
Not sure exactly which thread.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is you who don't undersant.
The danger of mages doesn't stem from only the "few" evil ones.
It stems from them all.
Good mages fall prey. Godo peopel make stupid mistakes. Good people have moments of weakness and stupidity.

Unless you have found a way to eliminate all such flaws from humanity?

A good, educated mage would rather die than threaten thousands. The untrained and uneducated make stupid mistakes.

And yet they still do.
You cannot simply categorize every mage that falls as "stupid" and "evil" just because it serves your agenda.
Smart and educated poeple make mistakes ALL THE TIME.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yet they still do.
You cannot simply categorize every mage that falls as "stupid" and "evil" just because it serves your agenda.
Smart and educated poeple make mistakes ALL THE TIME.

Part of being educated is not making those mistakes. Not ones that result in the deaths of thousands, anyway. ONe mage wound up possessed due to an experiment in the Fade, but had the sense of mind to imprison himself in a barrier in case he was possessed. Someone had to bail him out, but he didn't kill anyone.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Auintus wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Auintus wrote...

They attract demons, but they can be dealt with.[/quote]

Not easily and not without huge loss of life.[/quote]

Sure they can. I dealt with Mouse and no one died. It's a matter of understanding the bigger picture and what you risk when dealing with demons. Rejecting them from the very begining.[/quote]

Really? What about Connor?
What abotu every abomination event that happened? Hunderds, thousands died.

The invincible palyer with plot shields dealth with Mouse (not that you CANNOT fail that conversation). Bit deal.




[quote][quote]
Mages have been falling prey to demons since the begining.

Fluff-wise we already know that personality has little to no influence on it. Good mages may be less tempted, but they can still fall. And they do fall.

And Uldred and his ilk are proof why you idea doesn't work. Uldred had mentors. He had people that knew him.
And unsuprisinigly, so many kilelrs and criminals in Real Life have peopel that knew them and go "he would never do that".
But they do. People are fallible. People have moments of weakenss.
And you can never truly know them.[/quote]

Any intelligent mage knows that the birth of an abomination is never worth what they give you. If mages were made to understand the implications of that, no one would turn to demons, unless they were evil. Use blood magic, under very controlled circumstances. Dig around in their heads, search for corruption. These "evaluators" would never be able to leave the Circle, but I'm sure some mages would be content to remain if it meant rooting out the evil and the weak.
[/quote]

There just is no getting trough to you, is there?

I keep repating that not only do inteligent and good poepel fall and make mistakes, but that you also cannot tell good from bad on sight.
Most mages (if not all) DO understand the implactions. Heck ,evne pesants know that demons = bad. Even an apostate mage knows this


[quote]
I don't handwave anything. [/quote]

You do. you admited that oyurself earlier.

[quote]
All ills that you tie to magic are the result of lack of training or misjudging human nature, something an appropriate use of blood magic could check.
[quote]

No it can't. No you can't.
And who check the checker?



[quote]
Again with the "he was untraned, it would never have happened if he was".
How about some PROOF?
Not even the Word of God is enough for you poeple.
How many times must it be said that people fall all the time?

And the threat of poseesion is far greater, because demons are not drawn to corpses. And possesed corpses ar nohere near as dangerous.[/quote]

I can't prove it. The series has, so far, only shown mages who fall, because, honestly, it would be boring otherwise. Word of God is enough for me, if you could point me in the right direction. But if it is merely your interpretation of events...
[/quote]

It didn't. The game shown normal mages too.

And yes, DG clearly stated that even the best-intentioend and learned mage cna fall prey to demons.

[Auintus]

General User wrote...
Education is not a panacea.  You also need an institutional enforcement mechanism in place that not only makes sure that the education takes place but is also capable of dealing with cases where "education" either fails or proves to be insufficient and/or irrelevant.  Hence the Templar Order.

Oh, definately. I'm not saying that education would solve every problem. The templars would still remain a policing force and would likely have mages cooperating to bring down maleficar and abominations. Regulations would still be in place, phalacteries would still be made and templars would still exist in the system I suggested.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

One of the Mages vs. Templars threads.
DG said Thedas was more dangerous before the Circles.
Not sure exactly which thread.

Yes, the Circles make it safer, much safer, but there are better ways to do it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

They aren't a bomb that would cause unholy destruction if allowed to walk around a town. That's the extreme of how they are treated. Yes, the Circles are far better than the Qunari's method, but they still treat mages first as a threat, second as a person. It can be done better.

Yes they are. Find me a mundane child that cna destroy a town- then, and only then, can we talk.
They are treated how any sensible governemnt would.
Preventions/safety first.

No they aren't. A mage isn't going to erupt into flames during a midday stroll through the town. Control is possible. Capability is not inevitability. A mage could, that doesn't mean they will.

And yet many do. That SOME will fall is inevitable.
Yet you do not know which. So you round them all up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Life is full with meoments and opportunities for deamon deals.
Life is rife with desperation, especially in TheDas. Desease and sickneses were common, as is death and a hard work. Desire for changing things for the better, desire to get people to listen to you, a better station in life, etc, etc...

"A trained man would never do that". Yes, yes they would.
And you don't need a game to tell you that. Real Lfie is rife with examples.

Not trained in use of magic, but trained in it's effects. "Educated" may be a more accurate word. Understanding the hell that an abomination poses to the world. No rational human being would deal with a demon.
If any real person would willingly become a threat to a city for one wish, then humanity as a whole is beyond redemption and should be burned to ash, so the world may start again. But I don't believe that, I can't

Educated fall too.
Rational human beings fall and make mistakes, because no human EVER is 100% rational all the time. Never was, never will be.

If that was hte case we would NEVER have drunk drivers. Educate them and they will never do it, right?

If your dream was reality we would never have 99% of the s*** that goes on in the world.
The best of us fall and falter. All the time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
I wrote out a system for this earlier. Once again, I refuse to believe that every single mage, if not bound to the Circle, would become an abomination.

And your system sucks.

B.t.w. - no one said that every mage would become and bomination. Most wouldn't. But those few that do can cause more damage than an entire army.

Thousands of dead are NOT an acceptable price for mage freedom

[The Hierophant]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yet they still do.
You cannot simply categorize every mage that falls as "stupid" and "evil" just because it serves your agenda.
Smart and educated poeple make mistakes ALL THE TIME.

Part of being educated is not making those mistakes. Not ones that result in the deaths of thousands, anyway. ONe mage wound up possessed due to an experiment in the Fade, but had the sense of mind to imprison himself in a barrier in case he was possessed. Someone had to bail him out, but he didn't kill anyone.

Despite his education Uldred a senior enchanter was overpowered, and possessed, Merril was tricked by Wyrme, Marethari was possessed,  Anders assimilated and couldn't control Justice. The problem is that not every mage will have the same, and necessary common sense, will power, magical aptitude needed to resist demons.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really? What about Connor?
What abotu every abomination event that happened? Hunderds, thousands died.

The invincible palyer with plot shields dealth with Mouse (not that you CANNOT fail that conversation). Bit deal.

Connor accepted. I'd need more information about other circumstances.

Any intelligent mage knows that the birth of an abomination is never worth what they give you. If mages were made to understand the implications of that, no one would turn to demons, unless they were evil. Use blood magic, under very controlled circumstances. Dig around in their heads, search for corruption. These "evaluators" would never be able to leave the Circle, but I'm sure some mages would be content to remain if it meant rooting out the evil and the weak.

There just is no getting through to you, is there?

I keep repating that not only do inteligent and good poepel fall and make mistakes, but that you also cannot tell good from bad on sight.
Most mages (if not all) DO understand the implactions. Heck ,evne pesants know that demons = bad. Even an apostate mage knows this.

No, probably not. I once believed reality would be better off without humanity. I'm not allowed to think like that anymore.
Blood magic. Dig around in their head after training, look for signs of corruption. It would take time, but with trained "evalutors," which would remain in the Circle, many of the corruptible could be isolated.

You do. you admited that yourself earlier.

I handwaved a statement that was less an argument and more that I am off in cloudcuckooland somewhere. I handwaved your comment, not a legitamate arguement.

All ills that you tie to magic are the result of lack of training or misjudging human nature, something an appropriate use of blood magic could check.

No it can't. No you can't.
And who check the checker?

Templars. These evaluators would be watched very closely and would have to demonstrate exemplar virtues before being allowed to undertake the study of blood magic, and only for this purpose.

I can't prove it. The series has, so far, only shown mages who fall, because, honestly, it would be boring otherwise. Word of God is enough for me, if you could point me in the right direction. But if it is merely your interpretation of events...

It didn't. The game shown normal mages too.

And yes, DG clearly stated that even the best-intentioend and learned mage cna fall prey to demons.

Yes, but it never shows a mage reject a demon. Never a "Alright, he doesn't need our help, let's go home." That wouldn't be any fun.
I'm not saying he didn't and I'm not saying they can't. What I am saying is that not all do. For example, we have a morally bankrupt nation of mage that has not yet been destroyed by abominations, demonstrating that even if mages are completely free,(Which they wouldn't be, in my system) they don't all become abominations.

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:29 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yet many do. That SOME will fall is inevitable.
Yet you do not know which. So you round them all up.

Any person could be a serial killer, any person could be a terrorist.

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Educated fall too.
Rational human beings fall and make mistakes, because no human EVER is 100% rational all the time. Never was, never will be.

If that was hte case we would NEVER have drunk drivers. Educate them and they will never do it, right?

If your dream was reality we would never have 99% of the s*** that goes on in the world.
The best of us fall and falter. All the time.

True, but we mostly have to neutralize the threat of abominations. The understanding that demons are never to be dealt with under any circumstances. Most mistakes can be fixed. A team of templars, who would no longer be wasting time watching innocent mages, and mages would be able to neutralize abomination threat before too long.

Drunk drivers are idiots. One can be educated to a high moral standard. The problem is that your average individual simply fails to learn. Mages who did that would not be allowed to "graduate" and leave the Circle.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

B.t.w. - no one said that every mage would become and bomination. Most wouldn't. But those few that do can cause more damage than an entire army.

Thousands of dead are NOT an acceptable price for mage freedom

Maybe this is gameplay and story segragation, but an abomination can't take an army. The abomination is still the body of the mage and phalacteries would still be on hand. Templars and mages could cooperate to hunt down abominations and maleficar.

And your system sucks

Should've seen this coming, I really should have. Never a reason, just "You're wrong, I'm right."

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As far as I'm concerend you can think that souls are also part of the natural world.[/quote]
I don't. Magic is part of the natural world of Thedas. It is not a "mockery" of anything, it occurs naturally, like rain.[/quote]

Except it doens't.
Case closed.

dont' even talk to me about it anymore,



[quote]
It is standard, and it occurs today. Religions derive their authority from the holy texts that form the basis for their doctrine, if research produces knowledge that contradicts those holy texts, as Heliocentrism did, then they're going to try to suppress it or denounce it as false. The Catholic Church did it, The Chantry does it. Modern churches do it.[/quote]

As usual, you know nothing.
Especially given that some of the things there are definately, provably false.



[quote]
So when the church sold ignorant peasants scraps of paper that would absolve them of their sins, it was being helpful.[/quote]

Corrupt priests? Corruption happens.

[quote]
When it goaded them to sail halfway across the world to die in a strange land for no good reason, it was being helpful.[/quote]

Yes. The goal was to save europe form the muslims. By that point several christian kingdoms and holdings have fallen, and the mulims made it clear they had the same planed for the whole europe.
The Cursades SAVED europe


[quote]
Poor, poor religion, why doesn't anybody understand you?[/quote]

Because it actually requires reason and understanding and a braoder view?

You can go on over-inflating nad listing everything wrong that happened in the history or religion and at the same time ignore everything good.
You can go on and put dark movies and some over-arching planned conspiracies and world dominations plans on what is basicly basic human failings of individuals.

All that it proves is how little you know and how blind you are.
You know, I've met a lot of fanatics of all kinds...but the zeal, bile, bias and hate of some religion-haters puts the craziest religious fundies to shame.



[quote]
Well they sure as hell weren't sharing it. Where are the schools that the medieval church established? That's right they didn't exist! The only way to access the knowledge was to become a member of the religious order itself, an option that only existed for the children of nobility, who could afford the requisite donations in order to join the club.[/quote]

No, it was not restricted to nobility.
Also, why didn't the church build schools everywhere? Why didn't the GOVERNMENT do it?

You seem to forget that the Chuch is primarily a spiritual instituations. It's mandate isn't to build schools.


[quote]
Indulgences and tithing were widespread practices, endorsed by the Pope, they were not the actions of a single corrupt priest.[/quote]

And the later Pop said it was crap and abolished it. Many, many priests never followed that example.
Again, anything big organization led by humans is prone to human failings.
Your point?


[quote]
[quote]Crusade - surely the ONLY reason why anyone would go to war is pure evil. The fact that there is an enemy that's conquering and subjugating and clearly wants to end your culture surely has ntohing to do with it.[/quote]
The stated goal of the Crusades was to "restore Christianity to Jerusalem". That is the official reason, as announced by the Catholic Church itself.

The actual reason was because the Byzantine Empire had asked for aid in its war with the Seljuk Turks, a war that had virtually nothing to do with the Catholic Church, or the people of Western Europe, except that it was occuring in the general vicinity of a city they held to be sacred, which most of them had never even seen. [/quote]

Learn history.
Jerusalem was christian kingdom before hte Turks took over. Severl other western holding fell.
The Turks plan and intended goal was to conquer the whole europe. They wuldn't stop.

Tell me - do you hold USA guilty for entering war with Germany? After all, Germany hadn't attacked the US directly.

[quote]
The Seljuk Turks never invaded Western Europe, and there's no evidence that they had any plans to do so.[/quote]

Again, learn history.



[quote]
[quote]You see event A and immediatly claim dark motives behind them. You do not care how event  A came
to be. You do not care waht caused it, what sequence of events and
actions brought it into place. You do not care if htere can be multiple
explanations or reasons for action A.[/quote]
No, actually, it's the exact opposite, I see dark motives because I research the history behind specific events, and because I have a basic grasp of logic. People are rarely altruistic, and greed has been a common motivation throughout history.[/quote]

You know nothing, you see nothing and logic is the furest thing from your mind. If oyu ever researched history you wouldnt' be saying crap like that.


[quote]
[quote]You only care for how it
falls into your narrow view of the world and you only accept the
explanations that reinforces it, dismissing all others and not even
considering them for a second.
Truly sad.[/quote]
How can I dismiss alternate explanations? You haven't provided any. You tell me they exist, but you don't tell me what they are. I have actually asked you to share them, and you haven't.[/quote]

I did. you dont' bother to see or read. Not do oyu try to come up with them.


Tell you what. You give 1000$ to a beggar. He gets mugged.
I call you evil.
You planed for tihs all along.
You gave it to him hoping he will get mugged for it. Or you knew he will spend it all - being unused ot a lot of money - and then be even more miserable knowing what he had.

There is nothing alturistic about your action. You are motivated by pure evil. That is the only explantion and only reason.

This is your line of reasoning.

****

And seeing how this has now grown into a real religious debate.... great job.
You HAD to bring in real religion?
You just HAD to bash real religion, didn't you?

Great job. I expect this thread to be closed soon.


Please, Don't bother replying to me.

I won't bother reading.
You have nothing of value to say and there is nothing you have to say that I want to read. And at this poitn I doubt whatever you say wont' only escalate this further.

Moderatos, pls close this thread. It has run it's course.
I'm sorry for takign the bait and helping to de-rail it. I should have known better that to ever get into such discussion.

[Medhia Nox]

I have yet to see - in any Dragon Age game - how magic hasn't has done anything but destroy Thedas.

In the Dragon Age universe magic is almost totally a destructive force.

I truly think they should work on showing how it's helpful.

====

If I were a king of Thedas - the Circle in my nation would be given more freedom, but they'd all be trained in the anti-magic schools of magic... and they would be paid well by the state to keep outside mages at bay.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Moderatos, pls close this thread. It has run it's course.
I'm sorry for takign the bait and helping to de-rail it. I should have known better that to ever get into such discussion.

Some of us are capable of having a civil disagreement. If you can't, please remove yourself. There is no need for all of us to lose this because you can't disagree without running away with it.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I have yet to see - in any Dragon Age game - how magic hasn't has done anything but destroy Thedas.

In the Dragon Age universe magic is almost totally a destructive force.

I truly think they should work on showing how it's helpful.

====

If I were a king of Thedas - the Circle in my nation would be given more freedom, but they'd all be trained in the anti-magic schools of magic... and they would be paid well by the state to keep outside mages at bay.

They've shown good uses of magic, but they don't provide the conflict that makes an intriguing story. Remember Ander's clinic? He did a lot of good.