817 réponses à ce sujet

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thousands of dead are NOT an acceptable price for mage freedom

Is it the same for Dalish ? Can you really think you can be right ? Can you really think that actual Chantry/Templar follow God's words and can NEVER be contradicted ?
Abrahamic's Churches in Earth have more blood on their hand than anything else (often in the name of being more civilised or in the name of progress), as Tevinter and Orlais (which are 2 tyrany for me) in Thedas. Never think about compromise and never hear someone else who ask for a better world, always arise a new war.

It's sure that begin a war that will cause several thousands death in all country is better than some abomination that will only make some death one time every centuries. Can you tell us about a story where 1 mage (without help) erase a lot of cities in all Thedas ?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
No, probably not. I once believed reality would be better off without humanity. I'm not allowed to think like that anymore.
Blood magic. Dig around in their head after training, look for signs of corruption. It would take time, but with trained "evalutors," which would remain in the Circle, many of the corruptible could be isolated.

Blood magic don't work like that.
Blood magic can't tell you how corruptable" someone is.
And why would anyone trust a blood mage to begin with?
There IS no guarantee that a mage wont' be corrupted. A mage that resist temptation today may fall tomorrow.

Uldred PASSED his Harrowing, remember?

Templars. These evaluators would be watched very closely and would have to demonstrate exemplar virtues before being allowed to undertake the study of blood magic, and only for this purpose.

Again, we can't even check for virtues today, in a democracy.
Just check out our governments.


Your ideas wont' work because they all hinge on the concept of Incorrutable Pure Pureness.

Yes, but it never shows a mage reject a demon. Never a "Alright, he doesn't need our help, let's go home." That wouldn't be any fun.

It doens't have to. Demons whisper to mages in dreams.
That pretty much implies that a mage rejects many a demon trought his life.
But they dont' stop offering. They don't stop whispering. Any defense, any mind, can be broken with time and circumstance.

I'm not saying he didn't and I'm not saying they can't. What I am saying is that not all do. For example, we have a morally bankrupt nation of mage that has not yet been destroyed by abominations, demonstrating that even if mages are completely free,(Which they wouldn't be, in my system) they don't all become abominations.

I never said they all do.

And historicly nations have been in a state of toal war for hunderds of years, endured many natural disasters - and are still standing. WW2 saw millions die. The countris are still standing.
By that logic, WW2 is not a big deal and all the death and destruction caused are fine.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

B.t.w. - no one said that every mage would become and bomination. Most wouldn't. But those few that do can cause more damage than an entire army.

Thousands of dead are NOT an acceptable price for mage freedom

Maybe this is gameplay and story segragation, but an abomination can't take an army. The abomination is still the body of the mage and phalacteries would still be on hand. Templars and mages could cooperate to hunt down abominations and maleficar.

It is. Fluff-wise, abominations are a LOT stronger than in-game.

And your system sucks

Should've seen this coming, I really should have. Never a reason, just "You're wrong, I'm right."

I already told you why several times. Do you bother reading.
It cannot work. It'is reactive insted of proactive. It fails at containment. It fails at properly protecting both mages and mundanes.

the only thing that will come of it is a greater body count.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: Or they could learn proper medicine.

I also noticed that Anders has a little mob of protectors. It's a fantastic little cover for his terrorist cell.

===

Destructive Forces of Magic: Demons, Blights, Darkspawn, Archdemons, Undead, Abominations,
Blood Magic, Spirits, Lyrium, Golems (though this could be under blood magic)...

Beneficial Forces of Magic: Creation School - "some" of the Spirit school in combating magic. - "some" spirits who don't interact with mortals for any length of time.

They should "show" beneficial magic... even if the game is "about" fighting evil forces of magic.

Thedas magic is inherently negative. I find it a compelling story concept if intended - and if it's intended, they should deal with that more.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thousands of dead are NOT an acceptable price for mage freedom

Is it the same for Dalish ? Can you really think you can be right ?

Dalish have FAR fewer mages and they still pay the price. 2 clans destroyed by abomination. Many others dissapeared.
Teh Dalish aren't doing so well.

Can you really think that actual Chantry/Templar follow God's words and can NEVER be contradicted ?

I don't care if they follow hte Maker or not.
I don't support the circles because they are run by the Chantry - I support them because they are a logical step to take.

Abrahamic's Churches in Earth have more blood on their hand than anything else (often in the name of being more civilised or in the name of progress), as Tevinter and Orlais (which are 2 tyrany for me) in Thedas. Never think about compromise and never hear someone else who ask for a better world, always arise a new war.

You are wrong, but let's not go there...

It's sure that begin a war that will cause several thousands death in all country is better than some abomination that will only make some death one time every centuries. Can you tell us about a story where 1 mage (without help) erase a lot of cities in all Thedas ?

A single abomination can kill hunderds. Some really powerfull ones have decimated an entire citiy.
And there won't be ONE ever few centuries. They are more common than that.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I already told you why several times. Do you bother reading.
It cannot work. It'is reactive insted of proactive. It fails at containment. It fails at properly protecting both mages and mundanes.

the only thing that will come of it is a greater body count.

I do. I like reading. I'm out of books now, though. Very sad. Weren't you leaving anyway?
Proactive in education, reactive against the few that slip through the cracks. If mages weren't so desperate to escape the circle, fewer would be desperate enough to turn to demons or maleficar. If magic was treated as a dangerous gift that must be controlled and used for the betterment of all rather than a ticking time bomb that will destroy you and everyone you love, maybe some would decide they could use magic to be a good samaritan. Ander's clinic. Jowan's Intention.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: Or they could learn proper medicine.

I also noticed that Anders has a little mob of protectors. It's a fantastic little cover for his terrorist cell.

===

Destructive Forces of Magic: Demons, Blights, Darkspawn, Archdemons, Undead, Abominations,
Blood Magic, Spirits, Lyrium, Golems (though this could be under blood magic)...

Beneficial Forces of Magic: Creation School - "some" of the Spirit school in combating magic. - "some" spirits who don't interact with mortals for any length of time.

They should "show" beneficial magic... even if the game is "about" fighting evil forces of magic.

Thedas magic is inherently negative. I find it a compelling story concept if intended - and if it's intended, they should deal with that more.

He was being good until Justice's rage at the treatment of mages boiled over. Remove Justice, and your "terrorist cell" is gone too. The point is that the mage and the magic was good.

Demons are not magic, they are denizens of the Fade. Blights are the result of the taint, not magic. Archdemons are the same as the Blights. Undead are nasty pieces of work, I won't argue with that. The spirit healer spec shows what good a spirit can do, though the mage must be careful(Anders). Lyrium is a nautral stone, not magic. Golems are creations of the dwarves, utilizing lyrium, not magic.
Magic is not inherently negative. You can't have a dark fantasy game and let everything be rainbows and butterflies. If every problem could be solve with magic, we'd have no storyline. Most gameplay elements of magic are destructive, because it is used in combat. That doesn't mean that it has no good uses.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
No, probably not. I once believed reality would be better off without humanity. I'm not allowed to think like that anymore.
Blood magic. Dig around in their head after training, look for signs of corruption. It would take time, but with trained "evalutors," which would remain in the Circle, many of the corruptible could be isolated.

Blood magic don't work like that.
Blood magic can't tell you how corruptable" someone is.
And why would anyone trust a blood mage to begin with?
There IS no guarantee that a mage wont' be corrupted. A mage that resist temptation today may fall tomorrow.

Uldred PASSED his Harrowing, remember?

It lets you inside their mind. Observe the structure of their Fade-realm. Let you see things they won't say. Interpretation would be difficult, but I think it would be doable.
The evaluator would volunteer from the ranks of senior enchanters. Someone who understands that even blood magic is a tool to be used to serve the greater good. These mages would be watched much more closely. Deviations in their studies or misuse of magic on their part would be addressed immediately.
Then Wynne drove a clearly reclusive man nuts. Again, they must be understood as people.

Templars. These evaluators would be watched very closely and would have to demonstrate exemplar virtues before being allowed to undertake the study of blood magic, and only for this purpose.

Again, we can't even check for virtues today, in a democracy.
Just check out our governments.


Your ideas wont' work because they all hinge on the concept of Incorrutable Pure Pureness.

We can't dig inside people's minds today. Otherwise, corruption would be easy to detect.
You misunderstand the human mind if you think that one cannot be raised dogmatic. Teach mages that their powers are a gift to be used for the greater good, from a very young age. The little ones are easily indoctrinated.

Yes, but it never shows a mage reject a demon. Never a "Alright, he doesn't need our help, let's go home." That wouldn't be any fun.

It doens't have to. Demons whisper to mages in dreams.
That pretty much implies that a mage rejects many a demon trought his life.
But they dont' stop offering. They don't stop whispering. Any defense, any mind, can be broken with time and circumstance.

Not any mind. Humans are capable of understanding and absolute wrong. Accepting such an offer would be treated as such. Something to die before accepting.

I'm not saying he didn't and I'm not saying they can't. What I am saying is that not all do. For example, we have a morally bankrupt nation of mage that has not yet been destroyed by abominations, demonstrating that even if mages are completely free,(Which they wouldn't be, in my system) they don't all become abominations.

I never said they all do.

And historicly nations have been in a state of toal war for hunderds of years, endured many natural disasters - and are still standing. WW2 saw millions die. The countris are still standing.
By that logic, WW2 is not a big deal and all the death and destruction caused are fine.

I never said fine. More "acceptable," Better than imprisoning anyone capable of causing anyone harm, no matter if they have or not.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dalish have FAR fewer mages and they still pay the price. 2 clans destroyed by abomination. Many others dissapeared.
Teh Dalish aren't doing so well. 1

I don't support the circles because they are run by the Chantry - I support them because they are a logical step to take. 2

Abrahamic's Churches in Earth have more blood on their hand than anything else (often in the name of being more civilised or in the name of progress)

You are wrong, but let's not go there... 3

A single abomination can kill hunderds. Some really powerfull ones have decimated an entire citiy.
And there won't be ONE ever few centuries. They are more common than that. 4

1 - It's the same proportion than everywhere (10% i guess). It's not because we can see more mage in cities that there is more human mage than commoners... I don't say Dalish don't have problem, but they don't have circle and it's work well.

2 - I never say that circles need to be erase and are not a good thing ; i just say that circles can be adjust for the need of the mage, and not for the need/fear of Templar

3 - inquisition, Cathary, Lutherian, anglican, djiad, shoah, eradicate american natives, destroy human patrimony, slavery, and so on... There are a lot of exemple than can be similar to what's happened in Thedas, all in the name of God (whatever his name...). If we can explain religion, we can explain what we are thinking about and choice we are made. In their origin, religion are always nice and preach for the good, but they have too often an excuse to made wars and rule over humans. I respect religion if we can talk together, even if we don't have the same vision;). In DA3, i think it'll be an important plot about the story.

4 - As you said, CAN !! But there is not a single case in history of Thedas (other than Tevinter tyrany...). Templar have their role, but they need to relax their mind...

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you round up all the Dalish mages in existance, you probably still wouldn't even have enough to popualte a single Circle. There are 14 Circles filled with human (and elven) mages. There are far more Circle Mages than Dalish.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you round up all the Dalish mages in existance, you probably still wouldn't even have enough to popualte a single Circle. There are 14 Circles filled with human (and elven) mages. There are far more Circle Mages than Dalish.

Yes, with a proportional number of abominations/maleficar.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: I'm fairly certain you're not understanding what I'm saying.

By "Magic" I mean - any fantastic element that does not exist in the real world. That covers everything I said. Everything I listed comes from a "magical" element present in Thedas.

As a note - Cariden states that a form of blood magic (that also uses molten lyrium) is used to create the golems - I just re-played that part two days ago.

"Justice" fits my "Spirits are destructive" commentary - they're simply incapable of acting outside of their "programming" and being absolutes - they are absolutely destructive forces.

Demons/Spirits can't seem to possess normal people unless they're allowed through the Veil first - and the only way they're allowed through the Fade is through a mage's actions. ((We're told a lot of death - but we're not shown it. Ostagar - for example - should be wide open to the Fade - and it is not.)) Mages - can be possessed from childhood - and almost laughably easy. Demons are LOOKING for mages constantly... and we are shown that.

And I am deaf to any attempt to exonerate Anders - only the most imbecilic person allows something to possess them and "share" their free will.

The "magical elements" of Thedas are wholly destructive - with only a handful of beneficial elements.

How is that not "Dark Fantasy" by the way? Sounds like the very essence of Dark Fantasy. Trying to say that magic is "just a tool" seems far more anti-Dark Fantasy than anything I've said.

[thibaut72]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you round up all the Dalish mages in existance, you probably still wouldn't even have enough to popualte a single Circle. There are 14 Circles filled with human (and elven) mages. There are far more Circle Mages than Dalish.

I m not sure about that even if there is less Dalish than humans. But they are as numerous as Orlais, if not more (Orlais need the help of other nation to made his war against Dalsih). As i said, their system to trade with mage work and they don't have templar to regulate the power of their keepers.

Keeper respect the fact that "Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him". For this time, Dalish are more civilised than human !

[thibaut72]

Medhia Nox wrote...
By "Magic" I mean - any fantastic element that does not exist in the real world. That covers everything I said. Everything I listed comes from a "magical" element present in Thedas.

As a note - Cariden states that a form of blood magic (that also uses molten lyrium) is used to create the golems - I just re-played that part two days ago.

"Justice" fits my "Spirits are destructive" commentary - they're simply incapable of acting outside of their "programming" and being absolutes - they are absolutely destructive forces.

Demons/Spirits can't seem to possess normal people unless they're allowed through the Veil first - and the only way they're allowed through the Fade is through a mage's actions. ((We're told a lot of death - but we're not shown it. Ostagar - for example - should be wide open to the Fade - and it is not.)) Mages - can be possessed from childhood - and almost laughably easy. Demons are LOOKING for mages constantly... and we are shown that.

And I am deaf to any attempt to exonerate Anders - only the most imbecilic person allows something to possess them and "share" their free will.

The "magical elements" of Thedas are wholly destructive - with only a handful of beneficial elements.

Ther is not black/white magic, there is magic. You don't have demon/spirit, there is just Fade inhabitant.
Grass is always more green in the next meadow, and demon/spirit just want to find a ways to go in the mortal world. Of course, as human being, it's not the values i can agree with, but they just want to live.

Golems save the Dwarves for a time, and in the beginning it was only volonteers ; Justice can be a good value but it can cold and emotionless ("dura lex, sed lex"). Mage are connected to the Fade, but it's always their own choice to trade with demon.

As you, i can't accept that Anders/Justice do, even if i stand with the mage, and i always kill him ! When someone become insane (mage or not), this people need to be judge and receive punishment, even if punishment is death.

Magic CAN be destructive (as fire, electricity, water, wind,...) but this can be benefical too. Everything is dual, yin/yang, in equal proportion

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: I'm fairly certain you're not understanding what I'm saying.

By "Magic" I mean - any fantastic element that does not exist in the real world. That covers everything I said. Everything I listed comes from a "magical" element present in Thedas.

As a note - Cariden states that a form of blood magic (that also uses molten lyrium) is used to create the golems - I just re-played that part two days ago.

"Justice" fits my "Spirits are destructive" commentary - they're simply incapable of acting outside of their "programming" and being absolutes - they are absolutely destructive forces.

Demons/Spirits can't seem to possess normal people unless they're allowed through the Veil first - and the only way they're allowed through the Fade is through a mage's actions. ((We're told a lot of death - but we're not shown it. Ostagar - for example - should be wide open to the Fade - and it is not.)) Mages - can be possessed from childhood - and almost laughably easy. Demons are LOOKING for mages constantly... and we are shown that.

And I am deaf to any attempt to exonerate Anders - only the most imbecilic person allows something to possess them and "share" their free will.

The "magical elements" of Thedas are wholly destructive - with only a handful of beneficial elements.

How is that not "Dark Fantasy" by the way? Sounds like the very essence of Dark Fantasy. Trying to say that magic is "just a tool" seems far more anti-Dark Fantasy than anything I've said.

I see. Yes, I misunderstood your meaning of "magic".

Really? But dwarves cannot perform magic, so how can...?

They are not absolutely destructive. They are bent to a particular cause, a virtue. The spirit of valor does nothing but make weapons. Wynne's spirit of faith keeps her(spoiler: and later Evangeline) alive as well as augmenting Wynne's healing magic. Absolutes, certainly, but not absolutely destructive.

Ostagar was one battlefield. Enormous amounts of death over centuries is what damages the veil.

He didn't count on their merging so completely, couldn't have predicted Justice's corruption. He was trying to help. Everyone seems to forget that he was the shining light of Darktown for years before the incident at the Chantry.

You can't say wholly destructive and then say that their are good elements. It's contradictory. Besides, most of the elements you mentioned simply exist. The anvil involves transmutation, not destruction. Spirits are no more inherently destructive than humans, though that isn't saying much. Lyrium is raw power, it can be harnessed, but must be treated carefully. Unless you've forgotten how it can help save Connor.

It is dark fantasy. I'm saying that if magic had no negative aspects than it wouldn't be. Magic is a tool. It is raw power, but it can be controlled. It is only dangerous when wielded by the evil and the inexperienced.

[Medhia Nox]

What I'm saying is - it can't be Dark Fantasy - if there is nothing inherently "dark" about the fantasy.

If magic is "neutral" - it certainly isn't "dark".

And people being "dark" - isn't fantasy at all - so that description is horrible.

I find it FAR more compelling to consider the idea that magic IS inherently destructive - with only a few means to actually "make good" on an otherwise terrible power.

Magic (especially the way I'm using it) is beloved by fantasy enthusiasts - and the notion that it could be evil is alien to them - which is why I find it a compelling idea. We've got plenty of stories where magic is special and awesome and whimsical... but very few where it is actually a terrible corrupting power.

I'd actually be happier to learn that the Chantry is "mostly" right - than to find out the secular hedonism of the mages is "mostly" right. Freedom for all mages is FAR less dark fantasy.

[Auintus]

So lyrium is poisonous, mages have to keep their wits about them or risk possession, and occasionally the darkspawn raze a country to the ground. I don't think it'd be any less dark if mages aren't shut up in a prison for the crime of existing.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: See - I only see one thing you mentioned as possible "dark" fantasy. And even that can be avoided by refusal.

To me - the fantasy element must be "more" antagonistic than it is "enchanting" (ENCHANTMENT!) - for it to be "dark fantasy".

And I still feel that the concept that mages are factually dangerous to the rest of the population as far more compelling - while the whole "the world just doesn't understand" - isn't dark at all.

Warhammer Fantasy (and definately Warhammer 40K) - are dark fantasy to me. Dracula and FRankenstein (the novels) are dark fantasy to me.  D&D horror worlds like Ravenloft are dark fantasy to me. 

Worlds where social reform are going to happen?  Not dark fantasy at all to me. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
Education is not a panacea.  You also need an institutional enforcement mechanism in place that not only makes sure that the education takes place but is also capable of dealing with cases where "education" either fails or proves to be insufficient and/or irrelevant.  Hence the Templar Order.

Oh, definately. I'm not saying that education would solve every problem. The templars would still remain a policing force and would likely have mages cooperating to bring down maleficar and abominations. Regulations would still be in place, phalacteries would still be made and templars would still exist in the system I suggested.

And, in this system you suggest, would mage education be both universal and compulsory, as it is in the Circles?

[Auintus]

General User wrote...

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
Education is not a panacea.  You also need an institutional enforcement mechanism in place that not only makes sure that the education takes place but is also capable of dealing with cases where "education" either fails or proves to be insufficient and/or irrelevant.  Hence the Templar Order.

Oh, definately. I'm not saying that education would solve every problem. The templars would still remain a policing force and would likely have mages cooperating to bring down maleficar and abominations. Regulations would still be in place, phalacteries would still be made and templars would still exist in the system I suggested.

And, in this system you suggest, would mage education be both universal and compulsory, as it is in the Circles?

Absolutely. Mages must be trained and contained while they do so. A "graduated" mage would have more freedom than the current system.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: See - I only see one thing you mentioned as possible "dark" fantasy. And even that can be avoided by refusal.

To me - the fantasy element must be "more" antagonistic than it is "enchanting" (ENCHANTMENT!) - for it to be "dark fantasy".

And I still feel that the concept that mages are factually dangerous to the rest of the population as far more compelling - while the whole "the world just doesn't understand" - isn't dark at all.

Warhammer Fantasy (and definately Warhammer 40K) - are dark fantasy to me. Dracula and FRankenstein (the novels) are dark fantasy to me.  D&D horror worlds like Ravenloft are dark fantasy to me. 

Worlds where social reform are going to happen?  Not dark fantasy at all to me. 

So the social structure has to suck in a dark fantasy? That seems to be going a bit to far. The world is still replete with demons, darkspawn, the taint, I don't know that social extremes are needed as well.

[TheButterflyEffect]

The Dalish elves coexist with their mages just great. Why can't humans?

Humans are stupid and dumb.

[Auintus]

Very, very productive. Thank you for your unique and complex insight on this matter. We will take your reccomendation to heart and apply it to all that we know and do.

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[thibaut72]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

The Dalish elves coexist with their mages just great. Why can't humans?

Humans are stupid and dumb.

You are right and humans always think they are better than other race, in every games. It's because they are so sensitive to demons, always fear that they can't understand and try to overrule everthing they touch !

Auintus wrote...

Very, very productive. Thank you for your
unique and complex insight on this matter. We will take your
reccomendation to heart and apply it to all that we know and do.

By the way, why don't we try to copy the Dalish system ? Are humans too fierce to do this ? Dalish knew magic before humans ; even if Tevinter Empire need to be down (because of slavery, human's rights and Chantry's story, if it's true),  coexistance between mage and other humans (so in humans country) is possible or not without the circles ?

Modifié par thibaut72, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
Education is not a panacea.  You also need an institutional enforcement mechanism in place that not only makes sure that the education takes place but is also capable of dealing with cases where "education" either fails or proves to be insufficient and/or irrelevant.  Hence the Templar Order.

Oh, definately. I'm not saying that education would solve every problem. The templars would still remain a policing force and would likely have mages cooperating to bring down maleficar and abominations. Regulations would still be in place, phalacteries would still be made and templars would still exist in the system I suggested.

And, in this system you suggest, would mage education be both universal and compulsory, as it is in the Circles?

Absolutely. Mages must be trained and contained while they do so. A "graduated" mage would have more freedom than the current system.

How much more could they have?  Wynne was let go largely on her own recognizance.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .