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[Auintus]

General User wrote...
How much more can they have?  Wynne was let go largely on her own recognizance.

Wynne was an exception and under very special circumstances. I'm suggesting an integration into society. Let them have homes, families.
But the local Circle would retain their phalactery, transfering to the jurisdiction of a different Circle would have to be registered and approved, and a regiment(better word?) of templars outside of, but affiliated with, each Circle, and likely with mage allies, as an anti-maleficar, anti-abomination force.

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
How much more can they have?  Wynne was let go largely on her own recognizance.

Wynne was an exception and under very special circumstances. I'm suggesting an integration into society. Let them have homes, families.
But the local Circle would retain their phalactery, transfering to the jurisdiction of a different Circle would have to be registered and approved, and a regiment(better word?) of templars outside of, but affiliated with, each Circle, and likely with mage allies, as an anti-maleficar, anti-abomination force.

Letting mages fully integrate into society is just asking for trouble for all involved.  Afterall, mages are greatly feared and with good reason.  And, from the mage's perspective, the temptations to misuse magic out in the world would be simply too great.  Best for everyone to keep mages insulated from society and in an enviroment where they can be constantly monitored.  Best to keep them in the Circles.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[General User]

thibaut72 wrote...

By the way, why don't we try to copy the Dalish system ? Are humans too fierce to do this ? Dalish knew magic before humans ; even if Tevinter Empire need to be down (because of slavery, human's rights and Chantry's story, if it's true),  coexistance between mage and other humans (so in humans country) is possible or not without the circles ?

The Dalish are a small, simple, nomadic culture while the humans of Thedas have created a far larger, far more sophisticated, multi-national, multi-ethnic civilization.  Thus trying to copy the Dalish system of dealing with mages to human society on any appreciable scale does not promise to be a fruitful endeavor.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[thibaut72]

General User wrote...
How much more could they have?  Wynne was let go largely on her own recognizance.

All circle are not rule in the same manner. If Ferelden circle let Wynne to go outside the circle as she like, i don't think it was the same for Kirkwall and Meredith... it's the Chantry and Templar who made the rules in the circles.

I m ok with the idea to have a circle as school ; it's always more easy to educate in a single site than have random education. But when the education and the harrowing are done, circle are not need more, or only for mage who want continue study/teach, or have a safe haven.
For templars, they are magic police. with philacteries they can easily track mage that cause problem, and they can dispach their force is every city/village

General User wrote...
The Dalish are a small, simple, nomadic
culture while the humans of Thedas have created a far larger, far more
sophisticated, multi-national, multi-ethnic civilization.  Thus trying
to copy the Dalish system of dealing with mages to human society on any
appreciable scale does not have promise to be a fruitful endeavor.

You can be right, but if we don't try, we can't know ! We need have faith in human  (it's hard, i know !!! )

Modifié par thibaut72, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[General User]

Faith in humanity is hard enough.  Faith in humanity and elves is asking far too much!

[General User]

thibaut72 wrote...

General User wrote...
How much more could they have?  Wynne was let go largely on her own recognizance.

All circle are not rule in the same manner. If Ferelden circle think that Wynne can go as she like, i don't think it was the same for Kirkwall and Meredith... We always think about utopia... but it's the Chantry and Templar who made the rules in the circles.

Well... the rules were actually made by and at the behest of rebel mages protesting their pre-Circle lot in life. 

But anyway, that was really the problem with the Circles, wasn't it?  There was no enforcing of standards or any real system of recourse and redress.  The Chantry exercised far too little oversight over them, letting the local officials operate largely as they saw fit.  But those are flaws in the execution of the Circle system (and correctable ones at that), not in the concept behind them. 

I m ok with the idea to have a circle as school ; it's always more easy to educate in a single site than have random education. But when the education and the rite are done, circle are not need more, or only for mage who want continue study/teach, or have a safe haven.

For templars, they are magic police. with philacteries they can easily track mage that cause problem, and they can dispach their force is every city/village

From the mage's perspective you're right.  But remember, Circles also serve a social function in that they provide the general public with protection from dangerous mages and magic.  In order for the Circles to do that effectively, mages must remain there until and unless they have a positive reason to leave.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:52 .

[thibaut72]

You are right, and maybe tolerant toward mage, but even if we let the circle as they are now, don't you think we can let sometimes, mage to go and see their missing family, discover the world, even with the supervision of a Templar ?
Discover the world can be a good education too, and mage can understand the other side of their magic. Theorical teaching is always theoric. I don't look the problem of magic and the circle on the mage side, but as humanist (thinking about what it's best for all, and not only mage/templar).

When parents told us "be careful, it's bad to do this or that !", we never try to do it even if it's forbidden ? When we can act/see that something is dangerous, we learn better.
Magic can be dangerous, i agree, but it's not with the fear of magic and the fear of what a mage can do, that a society can evolve. Everyone can choose his future, even it's not always easy.

[Auintus]

General User wrote...
Letting mages fully integrate into society is just asking for trouble for all involved.  Afterall, mages are greatly feared and with good reason.  And, from the mage's perspective, the temptations to misuse magic out in the world would be simply too great.  Best for everyone to keep mages insulated from society and in an enviroment where they can be constantly monitored.  Best to keep them in the Circles.

If they believe that, then they can stay, but they're never given a choice in the matter.
Leyvn is proof enough that that fear is just of the unknown. The people he was protecting defend him when he gets nervous around you. The good they can do matches the evil.

[MisterJB]

thibaut72 wrote...
By the way, why don't we try to copy the Dalish system ?

The Dalish system. Where only mages are allowed in any positions of power and there is no way to influence the decisions of the Keepers other than outright disobeying them even if they are, clearly, prejudicial to the common good such as Marethari keeping her clan in the same spot for seven years because she couldn't let go of her adopted daugther?
No, thank you.

[Auintus]

I hate to admit it, but JB's got the right of it here. Mages shouldn't have political power.(Can it even be called that in the Dalish?) The keepers do fairly well, but try to apply the same principle to a modern, stationary civilization? You're asking for trouble. With Marethari, all that was needed was a more diplomatic system, magic or no magic.

Modifié par Auintus, 08 novembre 2012 - 11:58 .

[General User]

thibaut72 wrote...

You are right, and maybe tolerant toward mage, but even if we let the circle as they are now, don't you think we can let sometimes, mage to go and see their missing family, discover the world, even with the supervision of a Templar ?
Discover the world can be a good education too, and mage can understand the other side of their magic. Theorical teaching is always theoric. I don't look the problem of magic and the circle on the mage side, but as humanist (thinking about what it's best for all, and not only mage/templar).

I don't think anyone would really be against something like that.  Just bear in mind that there would be practical considerations that could easily make it unfeasible for many mages.

When parents told us "be careful, it's bad to do this or that !", we never try to do it even if it's forbidden ? When we can act/see that something is dangerous, we learn better.
Magic can be dangerous, i agree, but it's not with the fear of magic and the fear of what a mage can do, that a society can evolve. Everyone can chose his future, even it's not always easy.

I disagree people have their futures choosen for them.  Some people have the luxury of many options to choose from, and some people (often through no fault of their own) have only a few options.  Some (again often through no fault of their own) simply have obligations so important that society simply cannot in good conscience allow those people to shirk them.  Mages in Thedas belong to the latter two groups.

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
Letting mages fully integrate into society is just asking for trouble for all involved.  Afterall, mages are greatly feared and with good reason.  And, from the mage's perspective, the temptations to misuse magic out in the world would be simply too great.  Best for everyone to keep mages insulated from society and in an enviroment where they can be constantly monitored.  Best to keep them in the Circles.

If they believe that, then they can stay, but they're never given a choice in the matter.
Leyvn is proof enough that that fear is just of the unknown. The people he was protecting defend him when he gets nervous around you. The good they can do matches the evil.

I had to search the wiki to find out who the hell "Levyn" was.  But anyways...

First of all I don't think that good and evil work that way; one can't take X units of good and stack them against X units of evil and say that they "balance out."  One act of evil can overshadow and counter a lifetime of good, while a single act of good might serve to redeem a person in the eyes of some... but not others.  Too much is relative.

Besides the "good" that mages could do can only ever remotely be said to match the "evil" in terms of potential.  The flawed nature of human beings being what it is, and the nature of magic in Thedas being what it is, the scales will be inevitably weighted far and away towards the "evil" side.

And, hanging over it all is the concept of a rational societal reaction to danger.  It doesn't matter how many desperately needed jobs it might bring, setting up a fireworks factory in the middle of a residential community is a bad idea.

[iSignIn]

What's wrong with a model like the old Tevinter Imperium? It was one of the greatest civilizations in Thedas, if not THE greatest.

[Auintus]

General User wrote...

I had to search the wiki to find out who the hell "Levyn" was.  But anyways... 

First of all I don't think that good and evil work that way; one can't take X units of good and stack them against X units of evil and say that they "balance out."  One act of evil can overshadow and counter a lifetime of good, while a single act of good might serve to redeem a person in the eyes of some... but not others.  Too much is relative.

Besides the "good" that mages could do can only ever remotely be said to match the "evil" in terms of potential.  The flawed nature of human beings being what it is, and the nature of magic in Thedas being what it is, the scales will be inevitably weighted far and away towards the "evil" side.

And, hanging over it all is the concept of a rational societal reaction to danger.  It doesn't matter how many desperately needed jobs it might bring, setting up a fireworks factory in the middle of a residential community is a bad idea.

Sorry about that. I prefer to call him Levyn. I think he's earned it by that point. But that's probably biased.

A well-trained and morally sound mage would do much more good than ill to any community. If mages and templars cooperated than any maleficar and abominations could be hunted and neutralized much more quickly and with fewer casualties. The mages that turn to dark arts as their only way out of the Circle would have no reason to do so. And, in addition, you gain the opportunity to show people that a mage is not automatically an abomination if not shackled. Yes, abominations would still come to be, but with fewer templars necessary to watch the mages, more could be employed in hunting them down.

[EmperorSahlertz]

thibaut72 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you round up all the Dalish mages in existance, you probably still wouldn't even have enough to popualte a single Circle. There are 14 Circles filled with human (and elven) mages. There are far more Circle Mages than Dalish.

I m not sure about that even if there is less Dalish than humans. But they are as numerous as Orlais, if not more (Orlais need the help of other nation to made his war against Dalsih). As i said, their system to trade with mage work and they don't have templar to regulate the power of their keepers.

Keeper respect the fact that "Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him". For this time, Dalish are more civilised than human !

That was several hundred, close to a thousand, years ago, at the peak of Dalish society. Since then the Dlaish has not flourished, on the contrary, they have dwindled. There are far fewer Dlaish now, than even City Elves. They are not a world power, they are hardly even a power.

[TheJediSaint]

iSignIn wrote...

What's wrong with a model like the old Tevinter Imperium? It was one of the greatest civilizations in Thedas, if not THE greatest.

You mean besides it being a brutal slave state that sacificed slaves by the thousands every day to augment the power of the Magisters who controled it?  And as a result of their quest for more and more power, started the First Blight?

[Auintus]

TheJediSaint wrote...

iSignIn wrote...

What's wrong with a model like the old Tevinter Imperium? It was one of the greatest civilizations in Thedas, if not THE greatest.

You mean besides it being a brutal slave state that sacificed slaves by the thousands every day to augment the power of the Magisters who controled it?  And as a result of their quest for more and more power, started the First Blight?

I think he was joking. Dumat's blood, I hope he was joking.

[Dr. Doctor]

I always took "magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him" as being a warning about how power can corrupt. Magic can be used to heal the sick and to build wonders of engineering like the Imperial Highway but lust for power can lead to the atrocities of blood magic and the corruption of the Tevinter Imperium.

[Plaintiff]

TheJediSaint wrote...
And as a result of their quest for more and more power, started the First Blight?

We still have no proof that this is the case.

We know that Corypheus and others broke into the Black City and caused themselves to be tainted, there is no evidence that they spread the taint to anyone else, or that they triggered the first Blight, and it's equally possible that Darkspawn existed prior to this event.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
I do. I like reading. I'm out of books now, though. Very sad. Weren't you leaving anyway?

I left any discussion of real life religions.

Proactive in education, reactive against the few that slip through the cracks. If mages weren't so desperate to escape the circle, fewer would be desperate enough to turn to demons or maleficar. If magic was treated as a dangerous gift that must be controlled and used for the betterment of all rather than a ticking time bomb that will destroy you and everyone you love, maybe some would decide they could use magic to be a good samaritan. Ander's clinic. Jowan's Intention.

CURRENT CIRCLE SYSTEM
- control of magic taught
- damger of demons taught
- mages located centraly
- tight control
- templar response time: immediate

YOUR SYSTEM
- control of magic taught
- danger of demons taught
- mages spread everywhere
- loose control
- templar response time: hours/days


Yeah, I don't see it working.
Logisticly it can't.
Any mages that goes abomination will do so in a public area (because they live otuside the cirice, in vilalges/town). They will imediately burn it to the ground. Redcliffe scenario. Only without the Warden.
By the time the templars hear about it, the village will be gone, the people will be dead and the abomination will have moved on.

Your "solution" predisposes that almost no mages will fall (which is false and usupported) and that there will alaways be an entire squad of templars near every single mage (also false and a even bigger logistical nightmare).

Not only do you need a lot more tempalrs for this to work that have to be fed, paid and equipped.. and SOMEONE has to pay for it. This solution is about as popular as a tax increase), but those tempalrs also have to be practicly chained to one mage for this system to work.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Blood magic don't work like that.
Blood magic can't tell you how corruptable" someone is.
And why would anyone trust a blood mage to begin with?
There IS no guarantee that a mage wont' be corrupted. A mage that resist temptation today may fall tomorrow.

Uldred PASSED his Harrowing, remember?

It lets you inside their mind. Observe the structure of their Fade-realm. Let you see things they won't say. Interpretation would be difficult, but I think it would be doable.
The evaluator would volunteer from the ranks of senior enchanters. Someone who understands that even blood magic is a tool to be used to serve the greater good. These mages would be watched much more closely. Deviations in their studies or misuse of magic on their part would be addressed immediately.
Then Wynne drove a clearly reclusive man nuts. Again, they must be understood as people.

As I said before - it wont' work. It can't work.
And you need to read a bit more on blood magic.

And more handwave?

Again, we can't even check for virtues today, in a democracy.
Just check out our governments.

Your ideas wont' work because they all hinge on the concept of Incorrutable Pure Pureness.

We can't dig inside people's minds today. Otherwise, corruption would be easy to detect.
You misunderstand the human mind if you think that one cannot be raised dogmatic. Teach mages that their powers are a gift to be used for the greater good, from a very young age. The little ones are easily indoctrinated.

So you propose bainwashing as an ideal? Cute.

Also, what part of "no incorruptable pure pureness" are you having trouble grasping?
Even if blood magic could be used the way you describe (which I seriosuly doubt) it still hingest on trusting a blood mage and the idea that he is incorruptable.
Won't happen.

It doens't have to. Demons whisper to mages in dreams.
That pretty much implies that a mage rejects many a demon trought his life.
But they dont' stop offering. They don't stop whispering. Any defense, any mind, can be broken with time and circumstance.

Not any mind. Humans are capable of understanding and absolute wrong. Accepting such an offer would be treated as such. Something to die before accepting.

Any mind.
No one is unbreakable.
No one. No excpetions.

And historicly nations have been in a state of toal war for hunderds of years, endured many natural disasters - and are still standing. WW2 saw millions die. The countris are still standing.
By that logic, WW2 is not a big deal and all the death and destruction caused are fine.

I never said fine. More "acceptable," Better than imprisoning anyone capable of causing anyone harm, no matter if they have or not.

How is million dying "more acceptable". I dont' get it.
You postulate that abominatiosn are "not a big deal" because the kigdoms/countries still exist and haven't fallen.
And I just showed you why such lines of thinking are redicolous.
Humans are ressilient.
Loosing half a population of a country, and it will still go on. That doesn't make such large scale death and destruction irrelevant.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
1 - It's the same proportion than everywhere (10% i guess). It's not because we can see more mage in cities that there is more human mage than commoners... I don't say Dalish don't have problem, but they don't have circle and it's work well.

Far lower actually.. Mages are a very small minority.

And no, the Dalish system doens't work well. Unless your definition of "well" is entire clans lost to abominations (and with them entire parts of dalish culture)

2 - I never say that circles need to be erase and are not a good thing ; i just say that circles can be adjust for the need of the mage, and not for the need/fear of Templar

Small changes here and there would be a good thing. But people seem to forget that these are the middle ages and many of their "ideas" simply do not work as they prequisites for them are simply not there.
Also, many people seem to think that many of the rules of the circles are there just for s***s and giggles. But teye aren't. DG pretty much confirmed that there is a very good reason for all the rules.

4 - As you said, CAN !! But there is not a single case in history of Thedas (other than Tevinter tyrany...). Templar have their role, but they need to relax their mind...

Vigilance.
Templars dont' need relaxing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

General User wrote...
But anyway, that was really the problem with the Circles, wasn't it?  There was no enforcing of standards or any real system of recourse and redress.  The Chantry exercised far too little oversight over them, letting the local officials operate largely as they saw fit.  But those are flaws in the execution of the Circle system (and correctable ones at that), not in the concept behind them. 

I wouldn't be quick to call giving the Knight-Commander decision making authority a bad decision. Within the context of hte world, it makes perfect sense.

Who would know better than the knigh-Commander if the mage is trustworthy? Surely not the Divine.

We also operate in a mediavely society. There are no cell-phones, cars or airplanes. Travel takes days/weeks, evne months. Messages and news travel at the speed of horse. There are no security cammeras to see whata templar has done. There is no CSI to gather clues.

"Lack of oversight" is intrinsic to the world.
ANY organization in TheDas will face similar problem. The prequisities for such fundamental changes simply aren't in place.

People complained about templars on the field deciding the fate of a fugitive mage - but nothing short of granting the highest ranking templar decision-making autohority could work with any sort of effectiveness.
Who knows the situation on the field better than the poeple on the field?
How do you make any effective decision making or policing if you have to wait weeks for a replay, from a person who has no idea what's actually going on?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

A well-trained and morally sound mage would do much more good than ill to any community. If mages and templars cooperated than any maleficar and abominations could be hunted and neutralized much more quickly and with fewer casualties.

I don't see how is this possible.
Unless mages devised a magical spell that temeports and entire army of templars right to the locatio nof every corrupt or turned mage.

No way mages roaming free can result in anything other than the opposite - maleficr/abominatiosn would be hunted down much more SLOWLY and with MORE casualties.

The mages that turn to dark arts as their only way out of the Circle would have no reason to do so.

Good. What about the other 999 reasons?

Yes, abominations would still come to be, but with fewer templars necessary to watch the mages, more could be employed in hunting them down.

Opposite. Without mages being centralized, you'd need MORE templars (a LOT more) to mainain a similar level of oversight. And even then the threat level to the populace at large is still larger.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...
And as a result of their quest for more and more power, started the First Blight?

We still have no proof that this is the case.

We know that Corypheus and others broke into the Black City and caused themselves to be tainted, there is no evidence that they spread the taint to anyone else, or that they triggered the first Blight, and it's equally possible that Darkspawn existed prior to this event.

So where were they and what were they doing?

If they existed prior to that, how come no one ever mentioned or run into them (not even the dwarves)?
How comes they appreaed EXACTLY at the time the magisters did their thing?