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[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Was there anything in the game or lore to indicate otherwise?

Is there ANYTHING at all to indicate the humans, elves and dwarves don't agree on the time of the frist apperance of darkspawn? Especially since it's so important a matter to all races.

It's kinda of a BIG thing to simply slip by without no one noticing.

Yes, plenty.

For starters, the very fact that it is referred to as "lore" indicates that it should be taken with a pinch of salt.

We're talking about mere scraps of ancient documents, we don't know when they were written, so to assume that they were all written even within the same century of each other is a massive leap of logic. Also, it is beyond unlikely that these documents have been preserved in perfect condition from the time they were written.

So... in other words you got nothing otehr than your UNSUPPORTED theories?

Funny how you think the Chantry pulled off a conspiracy to alter every historical record (even dwarven ones) in existence.

If there were darkspawn before the magister thing, that would be good ammunition gainst the Chantry and anyone with a beef against them would have used it. And no one did. No one mentions it.
You'd think that the dwarves might mention it - they would be the first to encounter darkspawn, they have a callender, they know how to count.

And no, we're not talking about SCRAPS - that is your own figment of immagination. Plenty of well-perserved and DATED documentation apparenlty exists.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Firstly, unless there are universal absolutes - people do not have a "right" to anything... in this world, or the Makers.

I don't hold only mages to that standard - the elves should also use civil resistance and not violence to achieve their ends. It is the only way a lesser group can achieve permanent success.

However - I do recognize a greater threat. When a normal man acts selfishly - usually they only damage their microcosm. When a mage acts selfishly - they destroy vast swaths of people not involved in their selfish act.

I don't care that the mages did what they did - they're short sighted and deserve everything I imagine they're going to get.

It's a shame they've followed the examples of the least among them - but that's what they've chosen.

===

And Anders and Jowan were acting out of their own selfish love - especially Jowan.

The fact that Anders masquerades as a civil rights advocate only makes him more repugnant to me.

That mages don't even recognize that they are a larger danger to ALL people (even other mages) than normal people - is the most egregious crime of ignorance the Circles have committed so far.

The fact that mage players on these threads insist on an "Us vs. Them" mentality - proves that mages hold themselves above normal people - and exactly why normal people should not tolerate the danger they represent.

====

I'm finding the idea of a mage Inquisitor stamping out the mage rebellion more and more excited - the more I read the mindsets on these forums.

[The Elder King]

I don't see the point in arguing about the Imperium and their involvment in the darkspawn's creation. The situation is unclear (though I think the magisters were the first darkspawn), so we'll have to wait and see if it'll be explained.
Regardless their involvment in the darkpawn, they're not a model any society or nation should imitate. For an idiotic goal (reach the Golden City and prove themselves to be gods) they sacrificed thousands of slaves (along with a third of the lyrium of the Imperium). This alone is a reason enough to not imitate this model. If the mages in DA3 will want to create a magocracy, I'll be against them in my canon playthrough. As I'll be against the templars is their goal is the annihilation of mages.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So... in other words you got nothing otehr than your UNSUPPORTED theories?

Commonsense?

Funny how you think the Chantry pulled off a conspiracy to alter every historical record (even dwarven ones) in existence.

I think nothing of the kind, and certainly never said anything to that effect. You are not actually reading my posts, whatever argument you think I'm making exists only in your own head.

If there were darkspawn before the magister thing, that would be good ammunition gainst the Chantry and anyone with a beef against them would have used it. And no one did. No one mentions it.

Because nobody knows. Any records that might provide confirmation either way may simply have not been found, or might have been destroyed, either deliberately, or accidentally, or simply by natural decomposition. In DA:O and Awakenings, the warden finds lost documents on a variety of subjects. There is no way of knowing what else is in there.

You'd think that the dwarves might mention it - they would be the first to encounter darkspawn, they have a callender, they know how to count.

Tell me how the Dwarven calender records time then, and how their counting system works. Then tell me how it translates over to the Andrastian calender and counting system. Then show me a detailed chronology from both Dwarven and surface history, and we can see approximately where events match up.

Even if Corypheus's affliction and the emergence of the Darkspawn occurred at roughly the same time (and there is still no proof that this is the case) it could easily be coincidence. The Darkspawn could have tunnels that extend far beyond the borders of Thedas, as evidenced by recorded sightings of Ogres, long before the Kossith ever made first contact with Thedas. It's possible that the Darkspawn originated in some other corner of the world entirely and gradually tunneled their way through to the Deep Roads, and thus Thedas by extension.

For all we know, the rest of the world is a twisted blightland where no life can grow, and has been for millenia. Perhaps Thedas is the last scrap of land that has managed to stave off Darkspawn corruption.

And no, we're not talking about SCRAPS - that is your own figment of immagination. Plenty of well-perserved and DATED documentation apparenlty exists.

Like what? Where is it? In the Codex? Nothing in the codex is very long, and much of it is recently recorded history. We barely know anything about the details of any of the previous Blights, let alone the first one.

Even if there is well-preserved and dated documentation, so what? Just because something is written down doesn't make it true. The Bible is also well-preserved, and dated. However, history indicates that it has also been extensively editted at various times, and even were that not the case, there is little to no evidence that the events described within ever occurred at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Seems to me that the solution would be to stop pushing them, then.

Alrighty, then. You'll just have to change the natural laws of time so that Quentin's wife does not die, he is not pushed and doesn't mutilate and kill several women.
Well, chop chop.

People have the absolute right to protect their freedom and their lives with every single tool at their disposal. If the mages happen to have more effective tools than everyone else, well then that's just too damn bad.

Probrably dangerously close to Magister mentality.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Firstly, unless there are universal absolutes - people do not have a "right" to anything... in this world, or the Makers.

Then non-mages don't have a right to live without fear of magical threats, or indeed, a right to live at all.

I don't hold only mages to that standard - the elves should also use civil resistance and not violence to achieve their ends. It is the only way a lesser group can achieve permanent success.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

"I don't just hold one minority to an unfair standard, I hold all minorities to that unfair standard!"

However - I do recognize a greater threat. When a normal man acts selfishly - usually they only damage their microcosm. When a mage acts selfishly - they destroy vast swaths of people not involved in their selfish act.

So what? I thought we agreed that nobody has a right to life anyway.

I don't care that the mages did what they did - they're short sighted and deserve everything I imagine they're going to get.

The Templars, Chantry, and Thedas at large are bigots, and deserve everything I imagine they're going to get, and I'm willing to bet I can imagine a lot worse than you.

It's a shame they've followed the examples of the least among them - but that's what they've chosen.

If the "least" of the mages are fighting against obvious injustice and oppression, then the best of them must be nothing less than absolute paragons of virtue.

And Anders and Jowan were acting out of their own selfish love - especially Jowan.

Anders spent seven years of his life squatting in a sewer, healing the sick people that the Chantry was ignoring. I don't see how that relates to his perosnal relationships at all.

Jowan does a lot of different things at differnt times. You're going to have to specify, if you can avoid talking in such massively sweeping generalizations for even one moment.

The fact that Anders masquerades as a civil rights advocate only makes him more repugnant to me.

Anders wasn't "masquerading" as anything. He was active in civil rights, which makes him a civil rights activist. You can quibble about his motivations and his methods; they are irrelevent to that fact.

That mages don't even recognize that they are a larger danger to ALL people (even other mages) than normal people - is the most egregious crime of ignorance the Circles have committed so far.

The mages are perfectly aware of that fact. They fail to see where that justifies the blatant and obvious abuses inflicted upon them. And so do I, for that matter.

The fact that mage players on these threads insist on an "Us vs. Them" mentality - proves that mages hold themselves above normal people - and exactly why normal people should not tolerate the danger they represent.

"Mage players"? I play every class at least once, but I am predominantly a Rogue, so I dunno what the hell you're talking about. 

The fact that you hold up the supposed "attitudes" of forum posters as proof of anything proves only that you're not arguing rationally. The fact that you again use such an incredibly broad brush to paint everyone who disagrees with you proves that you're incredibly biased, and probably incapable of approaching the debate in a reasonable manner.

Mages should not tolerate the danger that normal people represent to them, either. Nobody should have to tolerate danger, but punishing people for crimes thay have yet to commit is never an appropriate response.

I'm finding the idea of a mage Inquisitor stamping out the mage rebellion more and more excited - the more I read the mindsets on these forums.

Your declaration that debate with forumgoers provokes violent fantasies (and that you find pleasure in those fantasies) is disturbing to say the least. Most people with such an inclination at least have the self-awareness not to announce it publicly.

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...

But that's just it.  Being "morally sound" might be sufficient for a non-mage to become a fine and upstanding member of Thedan society, but being morally sound is simply not enough for a mage.  If one expects any good to come of granting mages any major degree of freedom in society, mages need to be (no dwarven reference intended) paragons of integrity, titans of will, pillars of virtue, and models of restraint.  The nature of their powers, and the natural advantages such would give them in mainstream Thedan society, would leave no room for anything else.

Mages wouldn't completely take control unless society let them.

Taking complete control is only the worst case scenario (one that must be prevented from even being attempted, much less carried out).  Thedan society also has an imperative to prevent mages from misusing their magic in any number of ways. 

And if raise properly in the Circle, they would treat magic more as a duty to serve others rather than a tool with which to serve themselves.

No they wouldn't.  No matter how they might or might not be raised, in mainstream society, the incentives a mage would face to misuse their magic or use forbidden magic would be an order of magnitude more compelling than anything urging them to the contrary.  And, mage or not, people respond to incentives.

For any given person to consistently do the right thing and resist all incentives and urges to misbehave they must, by needs, be an exceptional individual.  And mages aren't, by nature, exceptional.  They are just ordinary people with extraordinary powers.

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...



I'm finding the idea of a mage Inquisitor stamping out the mage rebellion more and more excited - the more I read the mindsets on these forums.

Which I doubt it'll be forced on the player, and we don't even know if the mage (and templars) rebellion will be the main plot of the game.

[GodWood]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages happen to have more effective tools than everyone else, well then that's just too damn bad.

Probrably dangerously close to Magister mentality.

It's a bit silly that so many mage folk use some kind of pseudo-social-darwinism rational to justify mage hegemony but when non-mages use their own power to prevent being ruled over by the mages it's seen as "not fair".

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Alrighty, then. You'll just have to change the natural laws of time and nature so that Quentin's wife does not die, he is not pushed and doesn't mutilate and kill several women.

Quentin's actions were inexcusable, but they did not occur in a vacuum. We have no knowledge of the events that preceeded them, or the abuses that he may or may not have suffered during his time in the Circle, or the state of his mind prior to his partner's death. Unlike you, I am not going to leap to conclusions.

But for every Quentin you hold up, I can hold up an Alain, who turned to blood mage specifically because he was suffering repeated sexual abuse by templars and saw no other way out of his unimaginably horrific situation. We will never know how he would've turned out if he had not been abused, and he may've eventually turned to blood magic regardless, but I think anyone who suffers such trauma in their life deserves the benefit of the doubt.
 
I have never suffered the emotional trauma of being torn from my family at a young age, nor have I suffered imprisonment, beatings or rape at the hands of zealots, so I am not going to judge the actions of those who have.

Probrably dangerously close to Magister mentality.

I didn't realise self-defense counts as subjugation. Herpderp.

If you don't want to be immolated, don't bully people who can set you on fire with their mind. I don't see how such a  request is unreasonable. Anyone who can't come to this conclusion on their own is going to die anyway, when they inevitably forget how breathing works.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 novembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If the mages happen to have more effective tools than everyone else, well then that's just too damn bad.

Probrably dangerously close to Magister mentality.

It's a bit silly that so many mage folk use some kind of pseudo-social-darwinism rational to justify mage hegemony but when non-mages use their own power to prevent being ruled over by the mages it's seen as "not fair".

That would be a bit silly, if I had said anything of the kind. It's a good thing I didn't!

I specifically said that people, all people, have a right to defend themselves. I do not excuse or advocate mages, or anyone else, for that matter, acting violently without clear provocation.

The Circle system is not defensive, it is offensive. It is an attack. The Chantry and the Templars are striking an unnecessary preemptive blow against every single mage child, on the ridiculous and bigoted presumption that these children are going to do something bad in the future.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 novembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Paragon Caridin seems to beleive that the Darkspawn were something the humans unleashed upon Thedas..

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
That would be a bit silly, if I had said anything of the kind. It's a good thing I didn't!

Please quote where I said you supported such a position.

It is an inevitable outcome of the quote I quoted from you (hence why I followed on from there) however I never said you directly supported such a decision, only that some do.

The Circle system is not defensive, it is offensive. It is an attack. The Chantry and the Templars are striking an unnecessary preemptive blow against every single mage child, on the ridiculous and bigoted presumption that these children are going to do something bad in the future.

Your solution?

I've yet to hear one from the mage side, or at least I've yet to hear one that simultaneously protects the interests of the many and accounts for the inherent dangerousness of mages and how they are not equal to everyone else.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Quentin's actions were inexcusable, but they did not occur in a vacuum. We have no knowledge of the events that preceeded them, or the abuses that he may or may not have suffered during his time in the Circle, or the state of his mind prior to his partner's death. Unlike you, I am not going to leap to conclusions.

Of course, it must always be the templars. It couldn't be that Quentin simply loved his wife above everything and would do anything to regain her.
The point is that people don't need abuse to "snap". it can be caused by something as natural as the loss of a loved one or even something as banal as a sideways glance from someone.
But while a mundane in Thedas might punch a person or two or, worse of all, grab a knife and cut some throats, a mage can cause unimaginable destruction by themselves or with the help of demons.

I didn't realise self-defense counts as subjugation. Herpderp.

If you don't want to be immolated, don't bully people who can set you on fire with their mind. I don't see how such a  request is unreasonable.

Then stop calling the Circle subjugation. We limit our freedoms everyday so we can live in society. We do this because we have the potential to harm others. Mages who have an even greater potential to harm others, must have their freedoms even more limited. That is not an abuse.
Templars can and have abused mages but their deplorable actions do nothing to undermine the logic behind the Circle.

What you also don't seem to realize is that devalorization of those without magic (" too bad for them") is exactly what happens in Tevinter.
You can't possibly believe that all murders commited in the history of humanity were retaliation for "bullying" or that no mage would ever hurt a mundane for any other reasons.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2012 - 03:58 .

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Paragon Caridin seems to beleive that the Darkspawn were something the humans unleashed upon Thedas..

The elves agree but, then again, they blame the humans for everything bad that ever happened or will happen.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
Your solution?

Cut it the **** out.

I've yet to hear one from the mage side, or at least I've yet to hear one that simultaneously protects the interests of the many and accounts for the inherent dangerousness of mages and how they are not equal to everyone else.

I see no reason why I or anyone else should be obligated to provide such a solution?

As it is, though, people have offered solutions. I myself have a detailed plan for Circle reform that I've outlined in past threads on this topic. So if you haven't seen them, then you've either not been paying attention, or you're one of those who automatically declares every solution to be unacceptable because it doesn't offer "perfect" prevention, which the Circle didn't do anyway. No system ever will. That some people will slip through the cracks is inevitable.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Cut it the **** out.

The mage's heart? Well, that is a solution even if a bit extreme

I see no reason why I or anyone else should be obligated to provide such a solution?

If you want to destroy the solution we have in effect right now; and yes, it is a solution; then you better have a good one ready.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2012 - 04:14 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
I see no reason why I or anyone else should be obligated to provide such a solution?

Because tearing down the current system with nothing to replace it with will result in countless deaths and anarchy.

As it is, though, people have offered solutions. I myself have a detailed plan for Circle reform.

Well than, what is it?

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: My point was that you (and several others) seem to be arguing from a personal position... perhaps a minority yourself. Feel free to inform me that I'm incorrect there.

Mages are NOT the same as a real world minority - nor are they the same as the fictional minority of the elves.

Yet forum goers insist on using their real world morals toward minorities to make their cases against the "oppression" of mages.

And you could try not being so narcissistic to assume I was talking only about you.

If you condone violence for change - that's your prerogative. I do not. Anders is a terrorist and every Libertarian is in collusion with him.

He has used terror as his form of teaching - and it will work - and the people of Thedas will never forget what he and his fellows have done. ((Well - I suppose the writers can say they're just cool with it - that's up to them. I don't think real history supports that sort of reaction - so I'd suggest that such a reaction truly is "fantasy"))

Spartacus may have been doing the "right" thing (he was - but in the worst possible way) - but the Romans loathed him and celebrated his inevitable failure.  I believe the mage rebellion will go VERY much this way. 

And seeing as how we've only shown rebel mages using blood magic - summoning demons - and otherwise terrorizing mundanes... I DO find that a compelling story to play. A mage who turns against his rebel comrades for the greater good of protecting defenseless masses. Yeah, sorry - rebel terrorist isn't my thing.

Mages who are only so self-serving as to worry about their rights - while destroying the rights of others - do not interest me at all. It's a hypocrisy.

If the mages wanted to be "equal" - then they would use the tools at their disposal that all men possess.

Instead - the game constantly shows mages using their grossly unbalancing powers to serve their own selfish needs.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 novembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Of course, it must always be the templars.

That's not what I said at all.

It couldn't be that Quentin simply loved his wife above everything and would do anything to regain her.
The point is that people don't need abuse to "snap". it can be caused by something as natural as the loss of a loved one or even something as banal as a sideways glance from someone.

Yes, it can be, but I'm not going to assume that. It is the height of arrogance to see a brief snapshot of an individual's life and think that you know them.

You challenged me to go back in time and prevent the death of Quentin's partner, but who says that was the sole motivation for his action, or the sole cause of his fragile mental state? Who says that my action would accomplish anything? Other external pressures might cause him to snap regardless.

Your point, as you say, was that some mages do not need much provocation (or any at all) in order to behave badly, and yes, that is true. Some mages will behave badly. So will some non-mages, but you don't excuse the abuse they suffer at the hands of others, while you completely fail to address the fact that Alain turned to blood magic because he was being raped, repeatedly.

Yes, some mages will act out no matter what, but if the Circle wasn't so ****ty, if the tempalrs weren't so violent and provocative, then maybe less of them would. Don't you think it's worth at least trying?

But while a mundane in Thedas might punch a person or two or, worse of all, grab a knife and cut some throats, a mage can cause unimaginable destruction by themselves or with the help of demons.

So because a mundane will cause less damage, it's okay for them to misbehave?

No, that's hypocrisy, everyone should be held to the same standards of behavour, all the time.

Then stop calling the Circle subjugation.

That's what it is. It is not self-defense. The Circle system is the first punch, it is an act of aggression.

We limit our freedoms everyday so we can live in society. We do this because we have the potential to harm others.

Yeah, we make laws forbidding people from abusing others, we do not pre-emptively punish them on the offchance that they might commit a crime.

There is nothing inherently unjust about limiting freedoms, provided the same limits are imposed on everybody. When you impose extra limitations on a group for any reason, you are being a bigot.

Mages who have an even greater potential to harm others, must have their freedoms even more limited. That is not an abuse.

Yeah, it is, and it's bigotry as well.
 
If "greater potential to cause harm" is a legitimate reason to lock people up, then I submit that we build a special containment facility for everyone whose muscle mass is above a certain threshold, because those individuals can punch harder than the rest of the population.

Templars can and have abused mages but their deplorable actions do nothing to undermine the logic behind the Circle.

They don't need to, the logic of the Circle undermines itself by being moronic.

But as it is, the abuse of the Templars is a direct symptom of the way the institution functions. The Chantry, which oversees the Circle and the Templars, deliberately promotes zealotry among Templar recruits, and it also deliberately ebforces the view that mages are "inhuman", and responsible for the great evils of the world.

Of course a bunch of Templars turn out to be rapists, I would expect nothing less. According to their twisted worldview, which the Chantry has fostered and actively encouraged, the mages "deserve" it due to the inherent evil of their mere existence, and their feelings don't matter, because they "aren't human".

What you also don't seem to realize is that devalorization of those without magic (" too bad for them") is exactly what happens in Tevinter.

No it's not, in point of fact.

Tevinter may in fact be the least bigoted of all the nations in Thedas. Plenty of mages suffer under the yoke of slavery there, alongside non-magical humans, elves and dwarves.

Status in Tevinter is based on power. Not magic, power. Non-magical individuals are at a disadvantage, to be sure, just as people who lack strength or intelligence are at a disadvantage. But they are not barred from positions of power. All they have to do is earn it and keep it, by outwitting and outfighting their opponents, and being utterly ruthless.

Don't get me wrong, it sucks, but it's an entirely different kind of suck. and it would still suck in the exact same way if all the magic in Thedas sudddenly disappeared overnight.

You can't possibly believe that all murders commited in the history of humanity were retaliation for "bullying" or that no mage would ever hurt a mundane for any other reasons.

Of course not.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
If you want to destroy the solution we have in effect right now; and yes, it is a solution; then you better have a good one ready.

The system's destruction was inevitable. It destroyed itself without any help from me.

As it is, I think the situation post-DA2 is already vastly preferable to what went before.

GodWood wrote...
Well than, what is it?

I suspect my words fall on deaf ears, but if you insist, I'll try to give it to you in shorthand.

Step 1: Break from Chantry, use violence if necessary (accomplished).

Step 2: Reach out to nobility, find sympathisers (we know there are some). Offer fealty and provision of magic based-services in exchange for aid in upcoming war, and land upon which the mages can build. Meanwhile...

Step 3: Reach out to dwarves, break Chantry monopoly on lyrium by dealing with them directly. Make the same offer being made to surface nobility.

Step 4: Post-war, assuming victory, develop land received from nobles into premises for lodging and schooling. The more facilites, the better. Isolation and alienation from the rest of humanity is a major flaw in the current system.

Step 5: Work with nobility to establish a secular Templar order that includes mages among its ranks. Make sure, in training, to emphasize policing over pre-emptive aggression.

Step 6: (really, this should run concurrently with all previous steps) Combat the stigma associated with mages and magic by spreading mage-friendly propoganda to counter the messages of the Chantry. Foster a sense of unity between the Circle and the non-magical community. The ultimate goal is to create a fundamental shift in the way that society sees mages and magic. If nothing else, when the public is provided with an alternate view, they will at least then be able to make up their own minds. A few suggestion on how this can be done, just for starters:

- Emphasizing the few positive aspects of the Circle, and creating a few more. Make it a place where people would be happy to send their children.
- Establishing free clinics and learning facilities for the non-magical peasantry. They can't learn spells, but they can learn to read and write, a net benefit for the entire community.
- Establish a live-in tutor program for those that desire/can afford it. The fewer parents that have to worry about losing their children, the better.

Step 7: If it isn't obvious, work on internal policies. Harsher punishments for abusive Templars, and a better system for reporting those abuses. Less restrictions on magical research and experiments. The Harrowing is completely stupid and needs to be scrapped. Instead, work on developing effective techniques to ward off demons, that can be taught and practiced, so that mages have something to rely on other than sheer dumb luck. Enough mages have survived the Harrowing and other demonic encounters in the past that they should be able to get together and compare notes. There must be some common elements. If necessary, the Harrowing can be kept as a final exam, and it can even be a surprise, but the students should've already been furnished with the tools to combat such a situation, and it should not be the only element of the final exam, and it certainly should not be their first encounter with a demon ever.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: A mage rebellion is going to destroy any chance of doing Step 6 for a few hundred years.

And on a purely storytelling angle - you want Thedas to be like every other fantasy story?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:29 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
If you condone violence for change - that's your prerogative. I do not.

I condone it when it's clear that no other option will work. Ever since Origins, it has been clear to me that the only way the mages would acheive any lasting change was through violence.

Ironically, Anders disagreed with me when I voiced this opinion to Wynne in Awakenings, but even then, his opposition, and Wynne's, for that matter, was due to a fear of retribution and not due to any dislike of violence. Neither Anders nor Wynne were ever pacifists. Wynne might prefer a non-violent path, but she was ready to kill the Warden in Origins, when she thought he might harm the child mages in her care, and she was ready and willing to fight the templars in Asunder, when they threatened her son.

Anders is a terrorist and every Libertarian is in collusion with him.

Please. "Terrorism" and "terrorist" are such incredibly subjective terms that they're rendered basically meaningless. People just toss them around to describe any action they disapprove of, because they want to play on people's emotions. It's a dirty debate tactic, and a cheap one to boot. Hell, I can say that the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism. Prove that it wasn't.

"Terrorism" is not always a bad thing. If you commit an act of "terror" against a legitimately abusive and oppressive power, then you haven't done anything wrong.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Yes, it can be, but I'm not going to assume that. It is the height of arrogance to see a brief snapshot of an individual's life and think that you know them.

You challenged me to go back in time and prevent the death of Quentin's partner, but who says that was the sole motivation for his action, or the sole cause of his fragile mental state? Who says that my action would accomplish anything? Other external pressures might cause him to snap regardless.[/quote]
We have acess to what the game suggests is the cause and effect of Quentin's madness. Loses his wife, uses his magic to get her back regardless of who he hurts.
Could there be other influencing factors that we know not about? Perhaps, perhaps not.
The point stands. Quentin is a mage who, as the game suggests, lose his wife and abused his powers because of it. It doesn't take abuse of any kind for a mage to do the same.
They are people like you and me and there have been many times in my life where I wouldn't have trusted myself with acess to magic.

[quote]Your point, as you say, was that some mages do not need much provocation (or any at all) in order to behave badly, and yes, that is true. Some mages will behave badly. So will some non-mages, but you don't excuse the abuse they suffer at the hands of others, while you completely fail to address the fact that Alain turned to blood magic because he was being raped, repeatedly.[/quote]
What is there to adress? Yes, Alain was raped. It shouldn't have happened and Karas should be punished.
Alain seems like a decent enough mage. Unlike Quentin, he didn't hurt anyone.

[quote]Yes, some mages will act out no matter what, but if the Circle wasn't so ****ty, if the tempalrs weren't so violent and provocative, then maybe less of them would. Don't you think it's worth at least trying?[/quote]
Absolutely.
Of course, many templars aren't violent or provocative.

[quote]So because a mundane will cause less damage, it's okay for them to misbehave?

No, that's hypocrisy, everyone should be held to the same standards of behavour, all the time.[/quote]

No, because a mundane has less potential for destruction, it's okay to be more lenient. We allow certain people to carry some kinds of firearms while we would never, ever lose sight of a nuclear bomb.
Why? Because of the difference between each weapon's potential for destruction.

[quote]
That's what it is. It is not self-defense. The Circle system is the first punch, it is an act of aggression.[/quote]
It's no more agression than a security officer forbiding me from driving on the wrong side of the road.
I'm an excellent driver. Chances are I won't hit anyone. But what if I do?
In order to protect the other drivers, my freedoms are limited, regardless of my good intentions or exceptional skills. Same thing for mages.

[quote]
Yeah, we make laws forbidding people from abusing others, we do not pre-emptively punish them on the offchance that they might commit a crime.[/quote]
We're not punishing mages. We're imposing restrictions upon them just like we have our own restrictions on how to behave in society.

[quote]There is nothing inherently unjust about limiting freedoms, provided the same limits are imposed on everybody. When you impose extra limitations on a group for any reason, you are being a bigot.[/quote]
That is assuming everyone is equal. Mages and mundanes are not equal and pretending otherwise is naive and irresponsible.
Mages are much more powerful than mundanes with a much greater potential for death and destruction. That is a fact.
Since we've already extablished mages and mundanes are not equal, then the restrictions of each group must be different in order to reflect the differences in power.

 [quote]
If "greater potential to cause harm" is a legitimate reason to lock people up, then I submit that we build a special containment facility for everyone whose muscle mass is above a certain threshold, because those individuals can punch harder than the rest of the population.[/quote]
Disproportional "retribution". Punching harder is not the same as shooting fireballs from your hands or mind control.

[quote]
They don't need to, the logic of the Circle undermines itself by being moronic.[/quote]
The logic is quite sound.

[quote]But as it is, the abuse of the Templars is a direct symptom of the way the institution functions. The Chantry, which oversees the Circle and the Templars, deliberately promotes zealotry among Templar recruits, and it also deliberately ebforces the view that mages are "inhuman", and responsible for the great evils of the world.

Of course a bunch of Templars turn out to be rapists, I would expect nothing less. According to their twisted worldview, which the Chantry has fostered and actively encouraged, the mages "deserve" it due to the inherent evil of their mere existence.[/quote]
Zealotry does not equal abuse. It can lead to it but that's different. Yes, the Chantry does prefer people who will follow orders and do their jobs to bleeding hearts who will question everything. But, you will notice the same thing applies to nearly every single organization in the world.

Now, the Chantry has never, ever, encouraged people to rape mages. Their stance is more "pity them for they are cursed".

[quote]
No it's not, in point of fact.

Tevinter may in fact be the least bigoted of all the nations in Thedas. Plenty of mages suffer under the yoke of slavery there, alongside non-magical humans, elves and dwarves.

Status in Tevinter is based on power. Not magic, power. Non-magical individuals are at a disadvantage, to be sure, just as people who lack strength or intelligence are at a disadvantage. But they are not barred from positions of power. All they have to do is earn it and keep it, by outwitting and outfighting their opponents, and being utterly ruthless.

Don't get me wrong, it sucks, but it's an entirely different kind of suck. and it would still suck in the exact same way if all the magic in Thedas sudddenly disappeared overnight.[/quote]
Yes, it is, in point of fact.
It's not about bigotry but about valorization of power above everything which leads to the opression of weak mages and mundanes(not unique to tevinter) since in Tevinter, power equals magic. Even their interpretation of the Chant states that magic must serve man...in positions of power.
If all magic suddenly dissapeared overnight, I expect a revolution in Tevinter.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: A mage rebellion is going to destroy any chance of doing Step 6 for a few hundred years.

No it's not. Plenty of people were already sympathetic to the mage plight well before the war started, and plenty of people will continue to be sympathetic.

And for the people that aren't sympathetic, well... the less scrupulous and more intelligent among them will recognise that being on friendly terrms with the mages could reap significnat rewards in the long term.

And on a purely storytelling angle - you want Thedas to be like every other fantasy story?

It won't be. There are plenty of other unique aspects to the world of Thedas, and while the lot of mages can be drastically improved, the issue will never truly be resolved, as long as the Chantry continues to spread its cancerous influence.