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[Knight Templar_]

The Chantry doesn't and should not try to make the mages serve others, what they are willing able and obligated to do is make sure the second part isn't being broken.
What mages do, within certain boundaries of course, is their own business.

Or at least, such is my impression.

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

The best service a mage could provide for humanity was to become disciplined and judicious in the use of their powers. The job of the Chantry and the Circles was to make sure mages did just that. And, failing that, to remove the threat posed by mages who could not do so.

I disagree. The Chantry already used mages to stop the qunari invasion or the Blight. Mages could help common people greatly.

You're not wrong.  I only meant that, Blights and qunari invasions aren't really everyday things... even in Thedas.  Meanwhile abominations and bloodmages are dangers much closer to home, dangers that mages can best combat simply by not becoming abominations or practicing bloodmagic.

Plus, you're forgetting that mages help nobles when they're seriously ill. Of course, in this case the ill person have both political power and enough money to pay.

I'm not forgetting.  I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people.  Not even magic can ever change that.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2012 - 01:11 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not forgetting. I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people. Not even magic can ever change that.

Ah, so you have no faith in the Qun changing that either?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not forgetting. I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people. Not even magic can ever change that.

Ah, so you have no faith in the Qun changing that either?

In a society without money, the very concept of rich and poor is meaningless.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not forgetting. I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people. Not even magic can ever change that.

Ah, so you have no faith in the Qun changing that either?

In a society without money, the very concept of rich and poor is meaningless.

Hardly. It's just that wealth is now determined solely by rank, so far as we can tell. Kossith aren't a hiveminded race and seem to possess the capacity for personal desire still, and the Qun grabs other races too, so it can't be perfect. There's definitely some kind of underground exchange system going.

[Zeta42]

The Chantry's thesis about magic serving, not ruling is the biggest hipocrisy in the DA universe. While it sounds noble, it is used to enslave people born with magic and offer them three options: death, Tranquility or prison. As Uncle Ben said, "with great power comes great responsibility" - that's how mages should be treated, with the authority teaching them to be responsible, not punishing them before they even do anything bad. And when the Chantry says that magic is the mark of Maker's hatred, it makes me cheer every time I see Anders blow up Kirkwall's Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hitenchi wrote...

While i do tend to be pro-mage, i must say i do agree that mages are extremely dangerous people, however, someone who controls armies and the lives of many can be considered more dangerous.

Different kind of danger.
The power of the king relies on thousands of people obeying him. He is nothing without them.

The power of a mage is intrinsic and fully contained in a single person.

Also the elves seem to be able to live fine with their mages without much problem, and even blood magic to an extent.

Two clans destroyed by their mage Keepers and other clans dissapearing.
Doesn't look like fine to me.

[Xilizhra]

Two clans destroyed by their mage Keepers and other clans dissapearing.

They were attacked by spirits, and neither clan was automatically destroyed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

All mages shall become one...

...with my sword.

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

You're not wrong.  I only meant that, Blights and qunari invasions aren't really everyday things... even in Thedas.  Meanwhile abominations and bloodmages are dangers much closer to home, dangers that mages can best combat simply by not becoming abominations or practicing bloodmagic.

I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people. We know that the Chantry could send mages to do a certain mission (Varric's lie in the second ser Thrask's quest in Act 1). I don't see why they wouldn't send one or two mages to help people, with a group of templars and for short period of time. Of course, mages might be against being used like this, but my example was from the Chantry's point of view.

I'm not forgetting.  I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people.  Not even magic can ever change that.

I know that, but the risk of mages becoming abominations exists even in this case. So the "mages are dangerous" isn't the reason for mages not helping people. Either the Chantry or the mages (since I don't know who will take nobles's money for heal them) don't want to help people, if they don't have the money for pay their services.

[DaHeadVampire]

Well  DA:O was focused more on the blight and DA2 ended with an all out warfare between mages and templars , I picked mage in da2 because I love the mages , i did pick mage in origins but their combat sucked so I picked rouge... But  I don't like the mages being enslaved because they aren't like everyone else and  a lot of people are brain washed or in denial about their oppression . Anders strongly hates templars for this very same reason and he helped cause the war between the two , or make it worse by blowing up the chantry.... he even said that templars often abuse and rape the mages in the circle and people turn their heads to that!

Whatever I love mages and I will continue to pick them in next dragon age games  

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

You're not wrong.  I only meant that, Blights and qunari invasions aren't really everyday things... even in Thedas.  Meanwhile abominations and bloodmages are dangers much closer to home, dangers that mages can best combat simply by not becoming abominations or practicing bloodmagic.

I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people. We know that the Chantry could send mages to do a certain mission (Varric's lie in the second ser Thrask's quest in Act 1). I don't see why they wouldn't send one or two mages to help people, with a group of templars and for short period of time. Of course, mages might be against being used like this, but my example was from the Chantry's point of view.

There are as many reasons not to do something like that as there are to do it.  Not enough Templars on hand, not enough trained mages on hand, not to mention the 1001 different factors that might or might not be at work in the local community.  Besides I'm not so sure that sort of thing didn't happen in the first place.  Afterall, even Meredith kept the Gallows potion shop open for business.

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not forgetting.  I'm just keeping in mind that rich people will always have nicer stuff than poor people.  Not even magic can ever change that.

I know that, but the risk of mages becoming abominations exists even in this case. So the "mages are dangerous" isn't the reason for mages not helping people. Either the Chantry or the mages (since I don't know who will take nobles's money for heal them) don't want to help people, if they don't have the money for pay their services.

Think of it in terms of risk vs. benefit.  There are potential benfits to extending extraordinary magical services to the wealthy and powerful that simply would not exist when dealing with those whose personal resources and/or social standing are more meager.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...
]There are as many reasons not to do something like that as there are to do it.  Not enough Templars on hand, not enough trained mages on hand, not to mention the 1001 different factors that might or might not be at work in the local community.  Besides I'm not so sure that sort of thing didn't happen in the first place.  Afterall, even Meredith kept the Gallows potion shop open for business.

Potions haven't the same effects of healing magic. Plus, not everyone can afford the potion's price.
And I doubt that mages are sent to help/heal people, considering how much important is Anders for common people in Kirkwall.

Think of it in terms of risk vs. benefit.  There is a benfit to extending extraordinary magical services to the wealthy and powerful that simply does not exist when dealing with those whose personal and social standing and/or resources are more meager.

The  benefits are the huge quantity of money that the Chantry and/or the mages receive in exchange for the mage's service, and maybe avoiding problems in the succession, if the noble rules over a nation/region and he/she doesn't have children. It's not like having the favour of the nobles will change the situation in the Circle.
The benefit in curing common people is decreasing the chance of riots and rebellions, and decreasing the chance of triggering an epidemy (in the case of certain illness).

[cowoline]

From the Chantry's point of view it is simply "pest-control". As much as the Chantry is a religous organisation it is also a political institution.
Mages= power

No one can turn against the Chantry and they see themselves as being above everyone, even the sovereigns of the different countries. Mages are some of the most powerful forces in an army and imagine if a king would not heed the chantry and had mages as their disposal.

Why do yout think that Wardens are forbidden for involving themselves in politics?

The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

/sigh isn't it sad when history repeats itself? Shows that no one has learned anything from mistakes made in the past.

Edit: error

Modifié par cowoline, 06 novembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...
I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people.

Who's to say they don't?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cowoline wrote...
The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

Nice theory... but how about some evidence?

[The Elder King]

cowoline wrote...

From the Chantry's point of view it is simply "pest-control". As much as the Chantry is a religous organisation it is also a political institution.
Mages= power

No one can turn against the Chantry and they see themselves as being above everyone, even the sovereigns of the different countries. Mages are some of the most powerful forces in an army and imagine if a king would not heed the chantry and had mages as their disposal.

Why do yout think that Wardens are forbidden for involving themselves in politics?

The Wardens aren't under the Chantry's control. And they are forbidden in involving in politics because the last time they did it went horribly wrong.

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people.

Who's to say they don't?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In Kirkwall they didn't send mages to help common people, even considering the fact that the town was full of refugees. Though I think Kirkwall isn't the best city to use as example, so I wouldn't consider this a definite proof.
From the info I know about the Circle, the mages and their condition and the Chantry, I don't think the Chantry sends mages to help people, or the mages themselves agree on helping people. I could be wrong, of course, but that's the opinion I have on the matter. I'll be glad to be proven wrong (though considering the fact that the Circle system is broken for now, the evidence would be either some codex entry or some comics, games or books set before Asunder).

Modifié par hhh89, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

There are as many reasons not to do something like that as there are to do it.  Not enough Templars on hand, not enough trained mages on hand, not to mention the 1001 different factors that might or might not be at work in the local community.  Besides I'm not so sure that sort of thing didn't happen in the first place.  Afterall, even Meredith kept the Gallows potion shop open for business.

Potions haven't the same effects of healing magic.  Plus, not everyone can afford the potion's price.

So what?  My point was that even Meredith allowed the Circle to offer some of it's services to the general public.

And I doubt that mages are sent to help/heal people, considering how much important is Anders for common people in Kirkwall.

First of all, Ferelden refugees and the people in Darktown are not the "common people" of Kirkwall.  They are the desperate and destitute of that city.  But more to the point, when even the strictest Circle in Thedas allows mages to offer a selection of their services, I see no reason to think other Circles would not make even more liberal allowances.

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

Think of it in terms of risk vs. benefit.  There is a benfit to extending extraordinary magical services to the wealthy and powerful that simply does not exist when dealing with those whose personal and social standing and/or resources are more meager.

The  benefits are the huge quantity of money that the Chantry and/or the mages receive in exchange for the mage's service, and maybe avoiding problems in the succession, if the noble rules over a nation/region and he/she doesn't have children.

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a financial incentive for the Chantry to allow mages to offer a wider selection of their services to the general public, just that (in most cases) the financial and other incentives wouldn't really be sufficient to override the various social, political, and practical incentives not to.

It's not like having the favour of the nobles will change the situation in the Circle.

You are aware that the nobility are very much the ruling class in Thedas, yes?

The benefit in curing common people is decreasing the chance of riots and rebellions, and decreasing the chance of triggering an epidemy (in the case of certain illness).

There are lots of ways to decrease "the chance of riots and rebellions" (or to put them down should they happen) that don't involve utilizing outside parties who may or may not have their own agendas.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

It's not like having the favour of the nobles will change the situation in the Circle.

You are aware that the nobility are very much the ruling class in Thedas, yes?

And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.
You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.

The benefit in curing common people is decreasing the chance of riots and rebellions, and decreasing the chance of triggering an epidemy (in the case of certain illness).

There are lots of ways to decrease "the chance of riots and rebellions" (or to put them down should they happen) that don't involve utilizing outside parties who may or may not have their own agendas.

Of course riots and rebellions could be put down. My point was avoiding them.
And you didn't respond abou the epidemy.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...


So what?  My point was that even Meredith allowed the Circle to offer some of it's services to the general public.

I never said that this doesn't happen. It's only logical to sell the products of the Circle. It's not the same as leading mages to help people.

And I doubt that mages are sent to help/heal people, considering how much important is Anders for common people in Kirkwall.

First of all, Ferelden refugees and the people in Darktown are not the "common people" of Kirkwall.  They are the desperate and destitute of that city.  But more to the point, when even the strictest Circle in Thedas allows mages to offer a selection of their services, I see no reason to think other Circles would not make even more liberal allowances.

I doubt that if a Kirkwaller went to Daktown asking for help, Anders would've refused. I think he helped people of Lowtown which weren't Ferelden refugees too.
Regardless, it's obvious to sell the Circle's products. Why would Meredith forbid this, when a part of the profit goes in the Chantry/templar's hands?

General User wrote...


I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a financial incentive for the Chantry to allow mages to offer a wider selection of their services to the general public, just that (in most cases) the financial and other incentives wouldn't really be sufficient to override the various social, political, and practical incentives not to.

You misunderstood me. When I talked about the benefits of huge quantity of money, I was talking strictly about the nobles who pay for the mage's services. It was a benefit of curing nobles, not a benefit for curing common people.

[Sibu]

cowoline wrote...

From the Chantry's point of view it is simply "pest-control". As much as the Chantry is a religous organisation it is also a political institution.
Mages= power

No one can turn against the Chantry and they see themselves as being above everyone, even the sovereigns of the different countries. Mages are some of the most powerful forces in an army and imagine if a king would not heed the chantry and had mages as their disposal.

Why do yout think that Wardens are forbidden for involving themselves in politics?

The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

/sigh isn't it sad when history repeats itself? Shows that no one has learned anything from mistakes made in the past.

Edit: error

Be Quiet!

The Chantry is weak, the Templars are even weaker, too many of them care too much for the abominations. If we truly want to get rid of the magocracy, we need the Inquisition.

[EmperorSahlertz]

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

It's not like having the favour of the nobles will change the situation in the Circle.

You are aware that the nobility are very much the ruling class in Thedas, yes?

And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.

You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.
Templars often come from noble families. If said noble families have a more positive view of mages, it would rub off on the Templars of the next generation.

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

The benefit in curing common people is decreasing the chance of riots and rebellions, and decreasing the chance of triggering an epidemy (in the case of certain illness).

There are lots of ways to decrease "the chance of riots and rebellions" (or to put them down should they happen) that don't involve utilizing outside parties who may or may not have their own agendas.

Of course riots and rebellions could be put down. My point was avoiding them.
And you didn't respond abou the epidemy.

It will always be more favorable to cater to the rich and abbandon the poor, it is the way of life in a commercial society, probably even more so in a feudal one.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[cowoline]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cowoline wrote...
The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

Nice theory... but how about some evidence?

There is this book given to Wynne that has an interresting theory.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Search_for_the_True_Prophet


Then there is the case with the elves. According to Shartan. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shartan
Andraste promised the elves their own lands, a promise that the Chantry has failed to honour, despite they say that they preach her teachings. Instead the cities now have alienages, so it would seem that their fortunes have not improved much.

It is not conclusive proof, but it does suggest that at least in some way the chantry pulled away from what was initially Andraste's intention... unless she was a lying and manipulating fraud of course.