817 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

General User wrote...
No they wouldn't.  No matter how they might or might not be raised, in mainstream society, the incentives a mage would face to misuse their magic or use forbidden magic would be an order of magnitude more compelling than anything urging them to the contrary.  And, mage or not, people respond to incentives.

For any given person to consistently do the right thing and resist all incentives and urges to misbehave they must, by needs, be an exceptional individual.  And mages aren't, by nature, exceptional.  They are just ordinary people with extraordinary powers.

Well, then it's just a question of human nature. I, for one, adhere to Locke's belief that every human is a blank slate, capable of being molded. You believe otherwise. I doubt either of us will change the other's opinion on that.

[Shadow Fox]

Is it just me are do pro mages seem more extreme then the pro templars on this board?

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Step 2: Reach out to nobility, find sympathisers (we know there are some). Offer fealty and provision of magic based-services in exchange for aid in upcoming war, and land upon which the mages can build. Meanwhile...

And like that you've lost me.
First and foremost. Mages outside of the tower and owning land. No, never!
Too many happenstances in real life that can lead to mages losing control.

Second, mages swearing fealty to nobles. Terrible idea. Chantry oversight might have lead to abuses now and then but they, at least, were honest about what they were doing. They only used mages in wars that threatened the Chantry or humanity itself and there are no secret squads of blood mages serving the Divine. They are a multinational organization that actually worked in keeping the dangers of magic contained.
Give nobles control over mages and you'll turn a great portion of the peasant population into living batteries for when the nobles wish to wage war on each other.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
We allow certain people to carry some kinds of firearms while we would never, ever lose sight of a nuclear bomb.
Why? Because of the difference between each weapon's potential for destruction.

Yeah, it is forbidden to have a nuclear bomb in your house, that is a limitation imposed on everybody.

And the limitations on firearms are things like criminal history. If you've misused a gun in the past, then you've forfeited the right to own one again. That is also a limitation being imposed on everybody.

If the limitation was "you can keep a nuclear bomb in your house, but not if you're black, because black people are more likely to use nuclear bombs", that would be bigotry. Even if, somehow, legitimate statistics could be produced to support this assertion, it would still be bigotry, and unjust.

Disproportional "retribution". Punching harder is not the same as shooting fireballs from your hands or mind control.

So where do you draw the line? How much damage do you have to be capable of doing at one time in order to warrant pre-emptive incarceration?

If a fail-mage can only summon just enough fire to keep his hands warm, and just enough electricity to power a single lightbulb, should he be allowed to go free?

If a man has developed enough purely physical strength that he can topple a house in a single punch? Does that warrant his pre-emptive incarceratio?

Now, the Chantry has never, ever, encouraged people to rape mages.

Not in so many words, no. 

Their stance is more "pity them for they are cursed".

"But not too much OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL BURN"

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Step 2: Reach out to nobility, find sympathisers (we know there are some). Offer fealty and provision of magic based-services in exchange for aid in upcoming war, and land upon which the mages can build. Meanwhile...

And like that you've lost me.

I'll be sure to shed a tear over it later.

[The Elder King]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Is it just me are do pro mages seem more extreme then the pro templars on this board?

From what I read in the last months, both groups have peope with moderate view and people with a more extremist view.

[thibaut72]

For both side, can you think a little as human ? We are speaking about the right to enclose someone for the act they CAN do, and for most that they will never do. React to an action is normal way of thinking, but try to prevent an hypothetic evil act is abnormal (see minority report for exemple, even if it's fiction)

In DAO and DA2, there are some mages that did evil act and became abomination, but it's not the case of all mage. When some tell about the action of Anders, Orsino or Quentin, it's always the actions of a single mage. In the same way, we can tell about the actions of Meredith and Loghain. This 2 last one have more blood on their hands than the 3 before...

It's common easy to find a case or an evenment and make a generality for the rest of people. Don't forget that in DAO, you can obliterate the circle even if you can save some mage. The limit of freedom for everyone are fixed by those who have power. It's true in Tevinter (where mage have power) and it's also true in circle (where Chantry/Templar have power). In both case, there is a need of freedom (even a little). Oppression and never think about those you need to protect (from themselves or outside influence) always result a war, a revolution, as we can see in DA2.

Everything come on time, even if it's not easy to obtain, or need more time. Humans, mages, elves and Dwaves can coexist together, just need some concession to each other, and understanding about the other. If you always think the system is good and must not evolve, you can only see war and no peace.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
I'll be sure to shed a tear over it later.

I don't expect you to be distressed over my dislike of your plan. However, if you post in on the forums, I expect it is open to critique, no?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So... in other words you got nothing otehr than your UNSUPPORTED theories?

Commonsense?

Where?

If there were darkspawn before the magister thing, that would be good ammunition gainst the Chantry and anyone with a beef against them would have used it. And no one did. No one mentions it.

Because nobody knows. Any records that might provide confirmation either way may simply have not been found, or might have been destroyed, either deliberately, or accidentally, or simply by natural decomposition. In DA:O and Awakenings, the warden finds lost documents on a variety of subjects. There is no way of knowing what else is in there.

So in other words..you belive in your theory because there is no evidence to support it. At all. Not even a hint.

And you belive no one knows and no information on a VERY imporant, world-wide  and well-known event survived?
Even if you cannot exaplin how it could happen, given that books and historical records were kept before the Blight and the the Blight itself wasn't an apocalyptic event that destroyed civilization and wiped out all prior knowledge.

So you think the that no record survived, in any of the kingdoms of TheDas - even those further removed from the center of the blight.
And you call this common sense?
...
Riiiiiight.

You'd think that the dwarves might mention it - they would be the first to encounter darkspawn, they have a callender, they know how to count.

Tell me how the Dwarven calender records time then, and how their counting system works. Then tell me how it translates over to the Andrastian calender and counting system. Then show me a detailed chronology from both Dwarven and surface history, and we can see approximately where events match up.

 

I don't have to know. Dwarves and various schoolars of thedas wold know that stuff.
That's the whole point.

Even if there is well-preserved and dated documentation, so what? Just because something is written down doesn't make it true. The Bible is also well-preserved, and dated. However, history indicates that it has also been extensively editted at various times, and even were that not the case, there is little to no evidence that the events described within ever occurred at all.

Actually, quite a few events from the Bible have been confirmed.
But the Bible is more of a religious texts than a historical one. So nice attempt at a strawman.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't care that the mages did what they did - they're short sighted and deserve everything I imagine they're going to get.

The Templars, Chantry, and Thedas at large are bigots, and deserve everything I imagine they're going to get, and I'm willing to bet I can imagine a lot worse than you.

With the way your mind works, that doesn't surprise me.

If the "least" of the mages are fighting against obvious injustice and oppression, then the best of them must be nothing less than absolute paragons of virtue.

More like paragons of stupidity

The mages are perfectly aware of that fact. They fail to see where that justifies the blatant and obvious abuses inflicted upon them. And so do I, for that matter.

Then they are blind. And so are you.

Your declaration that debate with forumgoers provokes violent fantasies (and that you find pleasure in those fantasies) is disturbing to say the least. Most people with such an inclination at least have the self-awareness not to announce it publicly.

In that case you are not providing a good example....with all your talk of tamplar murdering nad Chantry burning and so forth..

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, it is forbidden to have a nuclear bomb in your house, that is a limitation imposed on everybody.

And the limitations on firearms are things like criminal history. If you've misused a gun in the past, then you've forfeited the right to own one again. That is also a limitation being imposed on everybody.

If the limitation was "you can keep a nuclear bomb in your house, but not if you're black, because black people are more likely to use nuclear bombs", that would be bigotry. Even if, somehow, legitimate statistics could be produced to support this assertion, it would still be bigotry, and unjust.

That is a fallacious argument and you know it. No particular group of mages is being discriminated, the templars take humans, elves, men and women to the Circle.
It is wise to keep nuclear bombs/magic away from cvillian because of their tremendous destructive power. Unfortunately, in Thedas people are the nuclear weapons and there is no way of separating the two without mutilating the person and destroying a valuable resource.

Honestly, I'm surprised the Chantry is so lenient. We burn people on the stake and there are no demons in our world. I expect that if these things existed, we would have commited genocide on the first day.

And BTW, limits on guns differ from country to country. Where I live, civillians can't get their hands on one through legal means. Period.
Should I start a revolution over this limitation of my freedoms? I'm a good person, I won't ever shoot anyone, you can trust me. Honest.

So where do you draw the line? How much damage do you have to be capable of doing at one time in order to warrant pre-emptive incarceration?

If a fail-mage can only summon just enough fire to keep his hands warm, and just enough electricity to power a single lightbulb, should he be allowed to go free?

See, now. That is a more valid question.
On this, I'm actually going to agree with you. Laws must apply to everyone equally. And yes, I'm sticking to a distinction between mages and mundanes. They are not equal.

Besides, a weak mage can still be possessed.

If a man has developed enough purely physical strength that he can topple a house in a single punch? Does that warrant his pre-emptive incarceratio?

That's a physical impossibility.

Not in so many words, no.

Never! In no way imaginable!

"But not too much OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL BURN"

"Pity them for they are cursed but keep them contained because their curse is dangerous."
I don't see what's so wrong with that. It's the smart thing to do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...

As it is, though, people have offered solutions. I myself have a detailed plan for Circle reform.

Well than, what is it?

Handwave with 1/4 of Deus Ex Machina nad a handfull of wishfull thinking and HOPE!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

We limit our freedoms everyday so we can live in society. We do this because we have the potential to harm others.

Yeah, we make laws forbidding people from abusing others, we do not pre-emptively punish them on the offchance that they might commit a crime.

There is nothing inherently unjust about limiting freedoms, provided the same limits are imposed on everybody. When you impose extra limitations on a group for any reason, you are being a bigot.

You lack of logic confoundms me. Mages are NOT like others.

Applying hte exact same standards to everyone, regardless of any difference...ti's ..assine. It makes no sense.

Two things that are not the same in ability or makup or major properties cannot be approached completely the same. How about we treat men and women COMPLETLEY the same - NO exceptions. Like no maternal leave for women. Men don't get it, so it's not fair.

That isnt' equality or political correctness. That is insanity. And what you are saying is equally redicolous.

Mages who have an even greater potential to harm others, must have their freedoms even more limited. That is not an abuse.

Yeah, it is, and it's bigotry as well.

No it's not.
 

If "greater potential to cause harm" is a legitimate reason to lock people up, then I submit that we build a special containment facility for everyone whose muscle mass is above a certain threshold, because those individuals can punch harder than the rest of the population.

Unfortunately for you, the difference not significant enough nor is the danger presented by such peopel to warrrant such an action.
But keep grapsing for straws. It's fun watching you squirm trying to defend your own collapsing logic.

[thibaut72]

@ L.S.
Actually, it's not exist, other than Chantry text, any codex/book that relate the origin of darkspawn. Corypheus says that the Gold city was corrupt before... Dalish have oral history, and dwarves loose a lot of their theigs and their history. So the truth is maybe not this you are thinking about.

It's the same on Earth, there are fact that we only know in this recent years, and even this, it's not 100% sure. One fact can be true until we can prove it's not. Gravity was only considered as an absolute law in physics until relativity. The Earth was in the center of the universe until it was proven it was false.

I hope we can know more about the origin of darkspawn, and some past hiding in the shade (history of Dalish, origin of magic, ...) in DA3. Inquisition can be a good way to find the truth...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Step 2: Reach out to nobility, find sympathisers (we know there are some). Offer fealty and provision of magic based-services in exchange for aid in upcoming war, and land upon which the mages can build. Meanwhile...

Nice dreams...how about something real.
There are very few nobles who would ever risk their positions and lands for mages. Even fewer who would give them lands.

Step 3: Reach out to dwarves, break Chantry monopoly on lyrium by dealing with them directly. Make the same offer being made to surface nobility.

Aha... how would they break that monopoly?
With pretty words? I'm quite sure they can't offer the dwarves more money.

Step 4: Post-war, assuming victory, develop land received from nobles into premises for lodging and schooling. The more facilites, the better. Isolation and alienation from the rest of humanity is a major flaw in the current system.

Actual it's a major plus point for the system. More dreams.

Step 6: (really, this should run concurrently with all previous steps) Combat the stigma associated with mages and magic by spreading mage-friendly propoganda to counter the messages of the Chantry. Foster a sense of unity between the Circle and the non-magical community. The ultimate goal is to create a fundamental shift in the way that society sees mages and magic. If nothing else, when the public is provided with an alternate view, they will at least then be able to make up their own minds.

HAHAhahahahahahahahaha :lol::lol::lol:

Step 7: If it isn't obvious, work on internal policies. Harsher punishments for abusive Templars, and a better system for reporting those abuses

And I assume you have an idea how that system would work? No?



Oh boy.....your plan is a list of wishes and not an actual plan. No real idea on how to put it in practice. I've seen election campaign promises with more substance and thought put into them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Please. "Terrorism" and "terrorist" are such incredibly subjective terms that they're rendered basically meaningless. People just toss them around to describe any action they disapprove of, because they want to play on people's emotions. It's a dirty debate tactic, and a cheap one to boot. Hell, I can say that the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism. Prove that it wasn't.

If you claim that "terrorism" is subjective, I claim that "subjugation" and "abuse" are too.

Therefore, mages are not subjugated and abused.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 novembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
No they wouldn't.  No matter how they might or might not be raised, in mainstream society, the incentives a mage would face to misuse their magic or use forbidden magic would be an order of magnitude more compelling than anything urging them to the contrary.  And, mage or not, people respond to incentives.

For any given person to consistently do the right thing and resist all incentives and urges to misbehave they must, by needs, be an exceptional individual.  And mages aren't, by nature, exceptional.  They are just ordinary people with extraordinary powers.

Well, then it's just a question of human nature. I, for one, adhere to Locke's belief that every human is a blank slate, capable of being molded. You believe otherwise. I doubt either of us will change the other's opinion on that.

Then you missed my point entirely, for I daresay that the fact that people are capable of being molded is the problem! 

The nature of daily life in Thedas carries with it innumerable, powerful, built-in incentives to use unsavory magic for unsavory ends. Therefore, if mages were to be allowed to integrate to any significant degree into mainstream Thedan society, mages would tend dramatically (even inexorably) to be molded into a bane on their fellow man. 

The only way mages in general can ever be a productive part of Thedan society is if they are kept at arms length (at least) from it.  For most all mages, that means living in Circles for the near entirety of their natural lives.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Is it just me are do pro mages seem more extreme then the pro templars on this board?

Nope, it's not you.


I talked with extremist bible humpers who couldn't shut up about God for 5 seconds.
I've talked with members of sects and cults that creep the hell out of me (some of them switch religion/cult every years)
I've talked with militant atheists who want ot see all religion destroyed and thing everyone religions is a mornon that is beneath them.
I've talked with fanatical muslims (the kind that always keep a loaded AK-47 near them..and let me tell you, it's is very, very unnerving.)

And frankly, I see little difference between the above groups and most pro-mage supporters here.

[thibaut72]

For what i can read for MisterJB, and LS (i hope i m wrong), you have the same speech as colonialist in past of Europe. They (the mage) are not the same as us, commoners ; for colonialist, they (Africans or incas or....) are not the same as us, white (and civilized) people.

Do you forget that you are talking about human ? It's the same blood, the same mind, and the same need... It's not a problem about someone can or can not do. Everyone can become an abomination (even if it's more easy for mage) or deal with demon. Prevent criminality with locking someone is not and will never be a solution.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
We allow certain people to carry some kinds of firearms while we would never, ever lose sight of a nuclear bomb.
Why? Because of the difference between each weapon's potential for destruction.

Yeah, it is forbidden to have a nuclear bomb in your house, that is a limitation imposed on everybody.

And the limitations on firearms are things like criminal history. If you've misused a gun in the past, then you've forfeited the right to own one again. That is also a limitation being imposed on everybody.

If the limitation was "you can keep a nuclear bomb in your house, but not if you're black, because black people are more likely to use nuclear bombs", that would be bigotry. Even if, somehow, legitimate statistics could be produced to support this assertion, it would still be bigotry, and unjust.

Except, of course, that you are wrong.

Limitations are NOT the same for everyone.
Police and military have different limiatiosn that others, do they not?

Or are you allowed to drive around in a tank?

Also ,comparing mages to blacks is idiotic. Mages are not blacks. Mages are mages.
It's neither unjust nor bigotry.

So where do you draw the line? How much damage do you have to be capable of doing at one time in order to warrant pre-emptive incarceration?

Common sense and damage assesment is where you draw the line. A thousand restricted mages vs. the hunderds of thousands of probable deaths caused by them?

How hard is to to identify and stop a mage the ngoes berserk? How much damage can he do before you stop him?
Those factor in.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

@ L.S.
Actually, it's not exist, other than Chantry text, any codex/book that relate the origin of darkspawn. Corypheus says that the Gold city was corrupt before... Dalish have oral history, and dwarves loose a lot of their theigs and their history. So the truth is maybe not this you are thinking about.

I'm sorry, but I can't understand half of your posts. It like you seem to drift from topic to topic wihotu finishing a thought.

And the "historical documents" reffers to existance of various historical documens in TheDas. We don't have to see every one of them to know they exist.
Do you think that if we only ran across 5 books in the game, that those 5 books are the only ones that exist?

A notable event such like the darkspawn would have been recorded by historians ALL ACROSS THE WORLD.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

For what i can read for MisterJB, and LS (i hope i m wrong), you have the same speech as colonialist in past of Europe. They (the mage) are not the same as us, commoners ; for colonialist, they (Africans or incas or....) are not the same as us, white (and civilized) people.

Do you forget that you are talking about human ? It's the same blood, the same mind, and the same need... It's not a problem about someone can or can not do. Everyone can become an abomination (even if it's more easy for mage) or deal with demon. Prevent criminality with locking someone is not and will never be a solution.

No, we aren't forgetting anything.
The mages AREN'T the same as everoyne else (in abiltiy and danger they present). Yes, they are human, but they cannot be treated exactly the same - because they are not.
If they were exactly the same, they wouldnt' be able to fling fireball, now would they?

Trying to compare them to any historical minority or race group is pointless, because no such comparable group exists. The difference between a mage and mundane isn't something silly like skin color.

And no, mundanes require special circumstances to be possesed, and even then are FAR less dangerous than mages.

[MisterJB]

thibaut72 wrote...

For what i can read for MisterJB, and LS (i hope i m wrong), you have the same speech as colonialist in past of Europe. They (the mage) are not the same as us, commoners ; for colonialist, they (Africans or incas or....) are not the same as us, white (and civilized) people.

Do you forget that you are talking about human ? It's the same blood, the same mind, and the same need... It's not a problem about someone can or can not do. Everyone can become an abomination (even if it's more easy for mage) or deal with demon. Prevent criminality with locking someone is not and will never be a solution.

Why are europeans always painted as the racist group? No one ever talks about the moorish invasion of the Iberian Peninsula or the turkish invasion of the Balkans. As an european, this is quite distressing. (this is likely to turn into a flame fest of epic proportions if we go down this path)

Anyway, it is about what they can do. Mages can do lots of things mundanes can't do. Lots of dangerous things. This is not a superficial difference in skin color.
There are a number of situations in life that can make a person lose control. If a mundane gets home and sees his wife in bed with another man, he is likely to kill them both in rage.
Put a mage in the same situation and it can become catastrophic for the entire city because his potential for destruction is much greater.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trying to compare them to any historical minority or race group is pointless, because no such comparable group exists. The difference between a mage and mundane isn't something silly like skin color.

What if we accept historical beliefs about the relative value or quality of people of different skin colour?  Then the analogy might work better.  If we compare how minorites were treated, given their lesser value, then perhaps that can be relevant to comparing mages and mundanes (who do have markedly different characteristics).

I also find it interesting that this discussion is typically approached, particularly on the pro-mundane side, from a natural rights perspective.  It's as if the real-world belief that humans are somehow special and important is being transported to Thedas and being applied to mundanes, such that mages are then seen as a threat to that human-centric perception of value.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Limitations are NOT the same for everyone.
Police and military have different limiatiosn that others, do they not?

Or are you allowed to drive around in a tank?

Also ,comparing mages to blacks is idiotic. Mages are not blacks. Mages are mages.
It's neither unjust nor bigotry.

Common sense and damage assesment is where you draw the line. A thousand restricted mages vs. the hunderds of thousands of probable deaths caused by them?

How hard is to to identify and stop a mage the ngoes berserk? How much damage can he do before you stop him?
Those factor in.

Except that limitations are given by law, and law are the same for everyone, policeman, commoners, or priest. Limitations are done with the common sense.
UDHR : "The ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and
freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are
created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as
well as his social, economic and cultural rights." even if it's a modern right.

You tell about a mage can do. Firearms do the same as mage : Colombine in US, Breivik in Danemark, ... Do we need to locked everyone who detain a firearm ?