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[MisterJB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
What if we accept historical beliefs about the relative value or quality of people of different skin colour?  Then the analogy might work better.  If we compare how minorites were treated, given their lesser value, then perhaps that can be relevant to comparing mages and mundanes (who do have markedly different characteristics).

I also find it interesting that this discussion is typically approached, particularly on the pro-mundane side, from a natural rights perspective.  It's as if the real-world belief that humans are somehow special and important is being transported to Thedas and being applied to mundanes, such that mages are then seen as a threat to that human-centric perception of value.

Your point being that since mages have acess to larger array of skills than mundanes, that they are more valuable, yes?

[thibaut72]

MisterJB wrote...

Why are europeans always painted as the racist group? No one ever talks about the moorish invasion of the Iberian Peninsula or the turkish invasion of the Balkans. As an european, this is quite distressing. (this is likely to turn into a flame fest of epic proportions if we go down this path)

Anyway, it is about what they can do. Mages can do lots of things mundanes can't do. Lots of dangerous things. This is not a superficial difference in skin color.
There are a number of situations in life that can make a person lose control. If a mundane gets home and sees his wife in bed with another man, he is likely to kill them both in rage.
Put a mage in the same situation and it can become catastrophic for the entire city because his potential for destruction is much greater.

I m european too (french). It's more easy to speak about the history i know, even if it's not pleasant to hear . I never think to say european are racist, and as you said, there are a lot of other exemples.

Anyway, you always told that a mage can erase a city and kill a thousand of people before be kill. So please, give exemple ! Give us the reference in codex / history of Thedas. You can't take your position with only suppositions.

[GodWood]

thibaut72 wrote...
Do you forget that you are talking about human ? It's the same blood, the same mind, and the same need... It's not a problem about someone can or can not do. Everyone can become an abomination (even if it's more easy for mage) or deal with demon.

Not everyone can fling fireballs with the flick of their wrist. Not everyone can conjure a tornado and level a town. Not everyone can brainwash a king to do their bidding.

Mages and non-mages are by nature not equals.

You're also seemingly ignoring the fact that many if not most mages are not only content to live their lives in the Circle but are actually better off than the majority of the population having access to free education, food, shelter, protection, job opportunities etc.

Indeed, I myself would much rather live comfortably in the Circle rather then as a poor peasant like the majority of the population.

[MisterJB]

thibaut72 wrote...
Anyway, you always told that a mage can erase a city and kill a thousand of people before be kill. So please, give exemple ! Give us the reference in codex / history of Thedas. You can't take your position with only suppositions.

"13 years have passed since a group of warriors led by the Templar Ravi banded together to prevent an abomination from destroying the Free Marches city of Kaiten in a hedonistic orgy of narcissism and opulence."


"Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history"

"A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world."


Redcliff is another example of a town that can be destroyed by an abomination.

Then there is "Dawn of the Seeker" where a Pride Abomination gains control of dragons through Blood Magic and almost destroys Val Royeaux.

Meredith's younger sister that killed over 70 people before being stopped. And she was a little peasant child.

There's blood magic which gives a mage a power to control others and even make them forget it ever happened.

Darkspawn which were, undoubtedly, created by magic even if it not because of the magisters.

There are also spells like this:

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...
@ L.S.
Actually, it's not exist, other than Chantry text, any codex/book that relate the origin of darkspawn. Corypheus says that the Gold city was corrupt before... Dalish have oral history, and dwarves loose a lot of their theigs and their history. So the truth is maybe not this you are thinking about.

I'm sorry, but I can't understand half of your posts. It like you seem to drift from topic to topic wihotu finishing a thought.
And the "historical documents" reffers to existance of various historical documens in TheDas. We don't have to see every one of them to know they exist.
Do you think that if we only ran across 5 books in the game, that those 5 books are the only ones that exist?
A notable event such like the darkspawn would have been recorded by historians ALL ACROSS THE WORLD.

I just want to say that even an event like the darkspawn can be forgotten / delated or altered with centuries. I read another post that author of DA series don't tell too much about the history of Thedas, so we can easily misunderstand the different codex we read in the game. As long as there is not evidence of the origin of the darkspawn, the truth is maybe elsewhere

[Medhia Nox]

And why does it have to be so extreme as a city?

The fact that a mage can even cast Mage Bolt - is too dangerous to not be regulated.

If you want to see where mages have destroyed city (with examples provided by MisterJB) - then I want to see where mages were shown trying their hand as civil resisters - instead of just flying off with a knee jerk reaction of "Use magic to destroy everything and hope people believe magic is good afterward!"

I do not disagree with reform - I vehemently disagree with revolution.

I really don't know what I'll think if mages are suddenly accepted after this war... if this war does anything but make the mage position worse - I think I'm going to have a disconnect.

Not because I have stake in that happening - this is a game, I couldn't really care less - but as I've stated before - small minorities that don't have support of the populace (and I haven't seen where they do) cannot hope to achieve any sort of victory - and violent acts have almost universally worked against those groups.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 novembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[thibaut72]

GodWood wrote...
Mages and non-mages are by nature not equals.

You're also seemingly ignoring the fact that many if not most mages are not only content to live their lives in the Circle but are actually better off than the majority of the population having access to free education, food, shelter, protection, job opportunities etc.

Indeed, I myself would much rather live comfortably in the Circle rather then as a poor peasant like the majority of the population.

I don't ignore them, and it's their choice. I don't make difference between mages and templars. As i m not pro mage or pro templar or pro Chantry, or pro XXXX. I just see the confict as sapiens being, without prejudices toward this or this one. As i told in my past post, circle can still exist, for those mage like you and as "modern" school...

[Adanu]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And why does it have to be so extreme as a city?

The fact that a mage can even cast Mage Bolt - is too dangerous to not be regulated.

If you want to see where mages have destroyed city (with examples provided by MisterJB) - then I want to see where mages were shown trying their hand as civil resisters - instead of just flying off with a knee jerk reaction of "Use magic to destroy everything and hope people believe magic is good afterward!"

I do not disagree with reform - I vehemently disagree with revolution.

I really don't know what I'll think if mages are suddenly accepted after this war... if this war does anything but make the mage position worse - I think I'm going to have a disconnect.

Not because I have stake in that happening - this is a game, I couldn't really care less - but as I've stated before - small minorities that don't have support of the populace (and I haven't seen where they do) cannot hope to achieve any sort of victory - and violent acts have almost universally worked against those groups.

So... what, mages are meant to be prisoners in towers with little to no contact with the outside world?

Treating the circles as anything but prisons is absurd. The only reform that mages would accept is schooling with freedom. Keeping them prisoner will only make the cycle of hate start all over again. You can't expect mages to simply sit down and give up after what's been done to them for centuries.

So, tell us what your solution is.

[Auintus]

General User wrote...
Then you missed my point entirely, for I daresay that the fact that people are capable of being molded is the problem! 

The nature of daily life in Thedas carries with it innumerable, powerful, built-in incentives to use unsavory magic for unsavory ends. Therefore, if mages were to be allowed to integrate to any significant degree into mainstream Thedan society, mages would tend dramatically (even inexorably) to be molded into a bane on their fellow man. 

The only way mages in general can ever be a productive part of Thedan society is if they are kept at arms length (at least) from it.  For most all mages, that means living in Circles for the near entirety of their natural lives.

Which is why you strike first and mold them against those corruptive influences. As a child. While they are still being educated in the Circle.

[thibaut72]

MisterJB wrote...

"13 years have passed since a group of warriors led by the Templar Ravi banded together to prevent an abomination from destroying the Free Marches city of Kaiten in a hedonistic orgy of narcissism and opulence."

"Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history"

"A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world."

Redcliff is another example of a town that can be destroyed by an abomination.

Then there is "Dawn of the Seeker" where a Pride Abomination gains control of dragons through Blood Magic and almost destroys Val Royeaux.

Meredith's younger sister that killed over 70 people before being stopped. And she was a little peasant child.

You exemple are fine but "PREVENT", "CAN BE", "THREATEN" : don't you think that means nothing happen, or less than you expect, LS and you ?
Cataclysm ? Even the nature can do the same ! Will you blame a mage because of a tsunami ?
70 ? A warrior or a snipper can do the same with his weapon !

There's blood magic which gives a mage a power to control others and even make them forget it ever happened.
Darkspawn which were, undoubtedly, created by magic even if it not because of the magisters.

A blood mage can also take the control of a psychopath who want to kill children in the street...
And we, for now, don't have any evidence of this.

I know that i m playing words with you, and as you, i m aware about a mage can do . But with or without locking mages, this always happened sometimes, and i don't believe that it ll happen more often if circles evolve.

[GodWood]

Adanu wrote...
Treating the circles as anything but prisons is absurd.

A prison that provides free education, food, shelter, protection and job opportunities. A prison where all within are allowed free range over an entire tower, are largely safe from the dangers of the outside world and where you live a life more comfortable than 95% of the population.

Really, the term "prison" carries connotations of a small, unsafe, dangerous environment that's much worse than the outside world, and as such doesn't really fit how the Circle is in reality.

[MisterJB]

thibaut72 wrote...
You exemple are fine but "PREVENT", "CAN BE", "THREATEN" : don't you think that means nothing happen, or less than you expect, LS and you ?

It means that it can and does happens if there aren't people to stop it. Which takes great effort as well as loss of life. It's better to prevent it.

Cataclysm ? Even the nature can do the same ! Will you blame a mage because of a tsunami ?

And just because nature can do the same, we should ignore there are people who can do it?

70 ? A warrior or a snipper can do the same with his weapon !

Over the course of a lifetime, maybe.

A blood mage can also take the control of a psychopath who want to kill children in the street.

Unless the psychopath is a mage himself, the guardsman can take care of it just fine.

And we, for now, don't have any evidence of this.

The evidence is the very nature of Darkspawn. They don't eat, sleep, breathe or age and their reproduction system is entirely based on the already existing races.
It's impossible for them to have developed naturally. They were created by magic. All it remains is to determine whose.

But with or without locking mages, this always happened sometimes, and i don't believe that it ll happen more often if circles evolve.

Before the Chantry and the Circles, Thedas went through a Dark Age where blood mages and abominations roamed freely while innocent mages were hunted and killed by the Inquisition.
The Circle is the best option for everyone.

[Medhia Nox]

@Adanu:

- Mage "Circles" would be required to be located outside of cities.

- Within those "Circles" a village/town/city would be allowed to arise from the families of mages that work/live/study in the "Circle". Those citizens would work closely with the Lucrosians in selling 1) Lyrium 2) Enchanted items 3) Contracted magical services.

- All mages MUST attend a Circle (of their choosing).

- During their years as an apprentice all mages must stay within the confines of the school, but the relationship would be more like a boarding school. Of course - families could visit and holidays could be taken within the confines of the village/town/city that grows up around the Circle.

- The Harrowing must still be taken - but mages will spend their time studying how to pass as well as learning spells and theory.

- Upon passing the Harrowing - mages can choose to either 1) Serve the Circle or 2) Submit to a phylactery and become a Free-Mage.

- Militant spells - including Primal, Spirit and Entropy spells would be restricted to only mages who serve the Circle. It would be unlawful for Free-Mages to learn militant spells (the proper license could countermand this - but it would be severely restrictive)

- The Circle has a police force made up of mages trained in the Anti-Mage lines of the Spirit School.

- Templars are no longer allowed to police the mages. They would become a secular organization designed to be another line of checks and balances from mage abusal.

- Blood Magic is death or Tranquility.

- Criminal use is considered pre-meditated and there is a zero tolerance policy. Depending on the severity of the spell in use - fines, incarceration, Tranquility and death are all possibilities.

- The Creation school would receive the most funding - with programs for Hospitals.

- Demonology is strictly prohibited - as are abominations. Both are death or Tranquility.

- The Chantry no longer has any control over mages - or templars (which seems to have come to fruition)

=======

As for "how" all this should come about? Slowly - and in the right way.

Not only do I believe what Anders and his Libertarian cohorts have done is not "the right way" - I think they've damned mages for centuries.

We're I writing the story after this... it would truly be a dark age for mages - with the most terrible cruelties being brought out on both sides.

I personally would not have too many more spirits/demons doing major things on Thedas... I think it's becoming a little more high fantasy than it ought to.

[Auintus]

GodWood wrote...

Adanu wrote...
Treating the circles as anything but prisons is absurd.

A prison that provides free education, food, shelter, protection and job opportunities. A prison where all within are allowed free range over an entire tower, are largely safe from the dangers of the outside world and where you live a life more comfortable than 95% of the population.

Really, the term "prison" carries connotations of a small, unsafe, dangerous environment that's much worse than the outside world, and as such doesn't really fit how the Circle is in reality.

I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage, it restricts freedom. Prison may be worse for some in the outside world, but one could see that prisoners are given food, shelter, a degree of education, should they seek it. Templar abuse of power is by no means unheard of, so they aren't even completely safe.
The Circles must always remain as a source of mandatory education for mages, but it needn't be a lifelong prison.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Adanu:

- Mage "Circles" would be required to be located outside of cities.

- Within those "Circles" a village/town/city would be allowed to arise from the families of mages that work/live/study in the "Circle". Those citizens would work closely with the Lucrosians in selling 1) Lyrium 2) Enchanted items 3) Contracted magical services.

- All mages MUST attend a Circle (of their choosing).

- During their years as an apprentice all mages must stay within the confines of the school, but the relationship would be more like a boarding school. Of course - families could visit and holidays could be taken within the confines of the village/town/city that grows up around the Circle.

- The Harrowing must still be taken - but mages will spend their time studying how to pass as well as learning spells and theory.

- Upon passing the Harrowing - mages can choose to either 1) Serve the Circle or 2) Submit to a phylactery and become a Free-Mage.

- Militant spells - including Primal, Spirit and Entropy spells would be restricted to only mages who serve the Circle. It would be unlawful for Free-Mages to learn militant spells (the proper license could countermand this - but it would be severely restrictive)

- The Circle has a police force made up of mages trained in the Anti-Mage lines of the Spirit School.

- Templars are no longer allowed to police the mages. They would become a secular organization designed to be another line of checks and balances from mage abusal.

- Blood Magic is death or Tranquility.

- Criminal use is considered pre-meditated and there is a zero tolerance policy. Depending on the severity of the spell in use - fines, incarceration, Tranquility, and death are all possibilities.

- The Creation school would receive the most funding - with programs for Hospitals.

- Demonology is strictly prohibited - as are abominations. Both are death or Tranquility.

- The Chantry no longer has any control over mages - or templars (which seems to have come to fruition)

I like this idea. I only have a few concerns.
-free mages should be allowed to learn militant spells, if only for self-defense. Rigid morals shoud be instilled regarding when to use it.
-The study of demons is the best way to learn to resist and counter them, though it should be undertaken with great caution and supervision.
-Phylacteries should be made for all mages, even those in the Circle. Circles are large places and if a mage goes rogue...
-I envisioned templars and mages cooperating as a policing force against maleficar and abominations, but that is only a recommendation.
Beyond that, I like this system very much.

Modifié par Auintus, 09 novembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[GodWood]

Auintus wrote...
I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage.

And fortunately the Circle is neither a prison nor a cage.

[Auintus]

GodWood wrote...

Auintus wrote...
I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage.

And fortunately the Circle is neither a prison nor a cage.

Did you read the rest? Would you deny that it restricts freedom to the nth degree, depending on the Circle? It is a cage, unless you can offer a compelling counter arguement.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
 Rigid morals shoud be instilled regarding when to use it.

You and your morals.
Morality doesn't stop crimes. Fear of punishment does.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trying to compare them to any historical minority or race group is pointless, because no such comparable group exists. The difference between a mage and mundane isn't something silly like skin color.

What if we accept historical beliefs about the relative value or quality of people of different skin colour?  Then the analogy might work better.  If we compare how minorites were treated, given their lesser value, then perhaps that can be relevant to comparing mages and mundanes (who do have markedly different characteristics).

Not really.
The crux of the matter with mages never was any percieved value of a race or individual.
It was the very nature of their gift and the danger it presents.

I also find it interesting that this discussion is typically approached, particularly on the pro-mundane side, from a natural rights perspective.  It's as if the real-world belief that humans are somehow special and important is being transported to Thedas and being applied to mundanes, such that mages are then seen as a threat to that human-centric perception of value.

What are you talking about?
Humans special and important? Who said that?

News-flash. Mages are also part of humanity as we understand it.
They are a threat to themselves and others. This isn't some made-up fear.

[GodWood]

Auintus wrote...
Did you read the rest? Would you deny that it restricts freedom to the nth degree, depending on the Circle?

We don't know enough about other Circles to make a judgement on them all.

So far we've seen two and from what I saw of the Fereldan Circle they have sufficient freedoms. There could be a few minor changes here and there but as a whole it's reasonable. 

It is a cage

Again, loaded words that don't in any shape or form represent reality are being used.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
Except that limitations are given by law, and law are the same for everyone, policeman, commoners, or priest. Limitations are done with the common sense.
UDHR : "The ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and
freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are
created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as
well as his social, economic and cultural rights." even if it's a modern right.

You tell about a mage can do. Firearms do the same as mage : Colombine in US, Breivik in Danemark, ... Do we need to locked everyone who detain a firearm ?

*sigh*

If it were up to me firearms would be WAY more restricted than they are now.

And no, a mage does not compare to a gun. This has been mentioned a bajillion times alreads.

[Fast Jimmy]

I really don't know what I'll think if mages are suddenly accepted after this war... if this war does anything but make the mage position worse - I think I'm going to have a disconnect.

The stated purpose by the devs a while back was to get the Mages out of the Circle for good.

The problem was having to design situations or reasons for a Mage to NOT be locked in a tower. They wanted to have a good reason why the player could be walking down the street and have a random fight where a Mage was one of the enemies and either have to explain why (mercenary group and maleficarum seem to be the most often used excuse in the games so far) or make the player suspend their disbelief.

I doubt they would come this far down the path and NOT have an outcome that results in tons of mages being free to roam the countryside and cities without fear or reprisal (so that in future games, players can kill them).

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
I just want to say that even an event like the darkspawn can be forgotten / delated or altered with centuries. I read another post that author of DA series don't tell too much about the history of Thedas, so we can easily misunderstand the different codex we read in the game. As long as there is not evidence of the origin of the darkspawn, the truth is maybe elsewhere

It may.
It's just that isn't very likely.
It would require a lot of things to fall into place exactly right all over the world.

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...
Then you missed my point entirely, for I daresay that the fact that people are capable of being molded is the problem! 

The nature of daily life in Thedas carries with it innumerable, powerful, built-in incentives to use unsavory magic for unsavory ends. Therefore, if mages were to be allowed to integrate to any significant degree into mainstream Thedan society, mages would tend dramatically (even inexorably) to be molded into a bane on their fellow man. 

The only way mages in general can ever be a productive part of Thedan society is if they are kept at arms length (at least) from it.  For most all mages, that means living in Circles for the near entirety of their natural lives.

Which is why you strike first and mold them against those corruptive influences. As a child. While they are still being educated in the Circle.

That wouldn't work.  Magic is too extreme a factor.   It's misuse cannot be prevented through roughly the same methods used to teach children table manners or prevent them from using curse words. 

Out in the wide open of Thedas, the incentives to misuse magic would simply be too powerful and pervasive.  All mages must be monitored constantly throughout their lives to insure (for their own good and for everyone else's) that they stay on the straight and narrow, and the most practical and humane way to do that is to consign them to Circles.

Modifié par General User, 09 novembre 2012 - 08:58 .