817 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: I don't agree with you totally about morality. There are plenty of hardened criminals who have no "fear" of the law.

Aristotle once wrote of philosophy that: "I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

That being said - I do agree that relying only on a moral code to stop crime is ineffectual at best.

====

@Auintus:

I did write demonology - I should have written demon summoning.

Studying to survive the Harrowing alone should allow for a lot of room in how to counter demon influence - so I certainly agree with studying the demons, the Fade and spirits.

[Fast Jimmy]

Studying to survive the Harrowing alone should allow for a lot of room in how to counter demon influence - so I certainly agree with studying the demons, the Fade and spirits.

To be fair, the Harrowing is veiled in secrecy. Even after it is passed, it's exact nature and purpose is not explained.

In fact, it could be argued that the Mage Warden FAILED the Harrowing. After all, he spent time in the company of and working with a number of demons and spirits. It's even hinted that the Pride demon your companion turns out to be succeeded. After all, you entered the Fade, proved yourself, took down a Rage demon... all of these things would bolster confidence, perhaps even introduce a little... Pride? Your actions may have strengthened a Pride demon and, for all we know, tethered you to his command.

The vagueness of the Mage Warden's end to the Harrowing leaves the door wide open on what exactly the Harrowing teaches.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
So... what, mages are meant to be prisoners in towers with little to no contact with the outside world?

Treating the circles as anything but prisons is absurd. The only reform that mages would accept is schooling with freedom. Keeping them prisoner will only make the cycle of hate start all over again. You can't expect mages to simply sit down and give up after what's been done to them for centuries.

So, tell us what your solution is.

Yes, I do expect it.
If I were a mage I'd accept living in the Circle. It is only logical.

It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

[thibaut72]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Morality doesn't stop crimes. Fear of punishment does.
[/quote]

If you can think that !!!! It's only a dreams. Even punishment of death don't stop crimes (i m well place to know that )

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
It
means that it can and does happens if there aren't people to stop it.
Which takes great effort as well as loss of life. It's better to prevent
it.[/quote]

It's always happen, with or without reform
[quote]
[quote]Cataclysm ? Even the nature can do the same ! Will you blame a mage because of a tsunami ?[/quote]And just because nature can do the same, we should ignore there are people who can do it?[/quote]
I don't say ignore them, but you can also make lyrium bomb without knowing magic, and cause as much dommage as a cataclysm can do
[quote]
[quote]70 ? A warrior or a snipper can do the same with his weapon ![/quote]Over the course of a lifetime, maybe.[/quote]
Breivik, 69 deaths in less than one day ; Andrew Kehoe, 45 deaths, ... More easy to take real events
[quote]
[quote]A blood mage can also take the control of a psychopath who want to kill children in the street.[/quote]Unless the psychopath is a mage himself, the guardsman can take care of it just fine.[/quote]
True, foolish is not inherent to blood mage... as blood mage are not necessary evil (as can be Malcolm Hawke, your warden, ...)
[quote]
[quote]And we, for now, don't have any evidence of this.[/quote]The
evidence is the very nature of Darkspawn. They don't eat, sleep,
breathe or age and their reproduction system is entirely based on the
already existing races.
It's impossible for them to have developed naturally. They were created by magic. All it remains is to determine whose.[/quote]
Again, there is no evidence of this : corruption of the darkspawn is like plague and not necessary created by magic.
[quote][quote]But
with or without locking mages, this always happened sometimes, and i
don't believe that it ll happen more often if circles evolve.
[/quote]
Before
the Chantry and the Circles, Thedas went through a Dark Age where blood
mages and abominations roamed freely while innocent mages were hunted
and killed by the Inquisition. The Circle is the best option for everyone.
[/quote]
Tevinter Empire is not a reference (i always think Tevinter is evil and must be crushed down) but just confort that "Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him" and don't make the mystake of the past. The Circle can be necessary, but they need evolve. We need look forward, not backward :innocent:

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Which is why you strike first and mold them against those corruptive influences. As a child. While they are still being educated in the Circle.

The molding never stops.
You never will be the only influence on them if you let them into the world. Contact with others and the realities of the world will mold them differently than you want.

Your solution does not work. You will never get the "perfect mages" you think of.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"13 years have passed since a group of warriors led by the Templar Ravi banded together to prevent an abomination from destroying the Free Marches city of Kaiten in a hedonistic orgy of narcissism and opulence."

"Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history"

"A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world."

Redcliff is another example of a town that can be destroyed by an abomination.

Then there is "Dawn of the Seeker" where a Pride Abomination gains control of dragons through Blood Magic and almost destroys Val Royeaux.

Meredith's younger sister that killed over 70 people before being stopped. And she was a little peasant child.

You exemple are fine but "PREVENT", "CAN BE", "THREATEN" : don't you think that means nothing happen, or less than you expect, LS and you ?
Cataclysm ? Even the nature can do the same ! Will you blame a mage because of a tsunami ?
70 ? A warrior or a snipper can do the same with his weapon !

So now you argue against direct lore and quotes after you got them?

A sniper CANNOT take out a city. A mundane CANNOT raise an army of undead. A mundane CANNOT threaten an entire region alone.

And wtf you on about tsunamis? "Cataclysm" refers to mage-induced feats of destruction.

Also, a "warior" might be able to kill 70 poeple. Maybe.
But he will be qickly found and stopped. He cna be diasrmed. Heavy weaponry can be restricted.
And a warrior is not a danger agaisnt his own will.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So now you argue against direct lore and quotes after you got them?
A sniper CANNOT take out a city. A mundane CANNOT raise an army of undead. A mundane CANNOT threaten an entire region alone.
And wtf you on about tsunamis? "Cataclysm" refers to mage-induced feats of destruction.
Also, a "warior" might be able to kill 70 poeple. Maybe.
But he will be qickly found and stopped. He cna be diasrmed. Heavy weaponry can be restricted.
And a warrior is not a danger agaisnt his own will.

I was just joking, because this events deserve mage, of course, and it's a fact you can barely use. But it's not a reason to not try to evolve the condition of everyone. that's happened, it's fate!  I m open minded, and i always hope that other people can discuss about a solution in the problem of Thedas. Do nothing is not a solution, so don't you think it's time to evolve ?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, a "warior" might be able to kill 70 poeple. Maybe.
But he will be qickly found and stopped. He cna be diasrmed. Heavy weaponry can be restricted.
And a warrior is not a danger agaisnt his own will.

QFT .. but who listens?

[PorcelynDoll]

I never understood exactly what the saying meant. Is it use your magic for good not evil?

[thibaut72]

PorcelynDoll wrote...

I never understood exactly what the saying meant. Is it use your magic for good not evil?

If you can define good/evil
My vision is if you have the gift of magic, you need help the community and have an altruist view, have the virtue of generosity, compassion, .... You must not use your gift to rule the community against its will, or oppress people.

In this tread, the discussion turns into the rights of the mage/oppression and if mage are dangerous because of their gift or not

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...
So... what, mages are meant to be prisoners in towers with little to no contact with the outside world?

Treating the circles as anything but prisons is absurd. The only reform that mages would accept is schooling with freedom. Keeping them prisoner will only make the cycle of hate start all over again. You can't expect mages to simply sit down and give up after what's been done to them for centuries.

So, tell us what your solution is.

Yes, I do expect it.
If I were a mage I'd accept living in the Circle. It is only logical.

It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

All you need to do is listen to Anders describe the circles. If you think people are going to accept those conditions in any way but grudgingly (which will lead to a revolt one day, like the current war), you're a bit out of touch with reality.

Modifié par Adanu, 09 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MisterJB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

What if we accept historical beliefs about the relative value or quality of people of different skin colour?  Then the analogy might work better.  If we compare how minorites were treated, given their lesser value, then perhaps that can be relevant to comparing mages and mundanes (who do have markedly different characteristics).

I also find it interesting that this discussion is typically approached, particularly on the pro-mundane side, from a natural rights perspective.  It's as if the real-world belief that humans are somehow special and important is being transported to Thedas and being applied to mundanes, such that mages are then seen as a threat to that human-centric perception of value.

Your point being that since mages have acess to larger array of skills than mundanes, that they are more valuable, yes?

My point is that if mages perceive themselves as superior, it makes sense for mages to resist being held down to the standard of mundanes.  Just as it made sense for people in history to refuse to be judged the same standard as those who they saw as inferior to them.

Now, we look back and perceive no difference in value between the oppressors and the oppressed, so their treatment of one another appears unacceptable.  But to them, it wasn't, because they perceived a relevant difference.

With mages, there absolutely is a difference.  The question remains whether it is relevant.

[Sylvius the Mad]

GodWood wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage.

And fortunately the Circle is neither a prison nor a cage.

If the mages perceive it as a prison, does it matter?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

News-flash. Mages are also part of humanity as we understand it.

That's the position you need to justify.  As it is, you're simply asserting it to be true with no justification offered.  You hold it to be self-evident.

That's a natural rights position.

[Adanu]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage.

And fortunately the Circle is neither a prison nor a cage.

If the mages perceive it as a prison, does it matter?

The sky is falling. I agree with Sylvius for once.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"13 years have passed since a group of warriors led by the Templar Ravi banded together to prevent an abomination from destroying the Free Marches city of Kaiten in a hedonistic orgy of narcissism and opulence."

"Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history"

"A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world."

Redcliff is another example of a town that can be destroyed by an abomination.

Then there is "Dawn of the Seeker" where a Pride Abomination gains control of dragons through Blood Magic and almost destroys Val Royeaux.

Meredith's younger sister that killed over 70 people before being stopped. And she was a little peasant child.

You exemple are fine but "PREVENT", "CAN BE", "THREATEN" : don't you think that means nothing happen, or less than you expect, LS and you ?
Cataclysm ? Even the nature can do the same ! Will you blame a mage because of a tsunami ?
70 ? A warrior or a snipper can do the same with his weapon !

So now you argue against direct lore and quotes after you got them?

A sniper CANNOT take out a city. A mundane CANNOT raise an army of undead. A mundane CANNOT threaten an entire region alone.

And wtf you on about tsunamis? "Cataclysm" refers to mage-induced feats of destruction.

Also, a "warior" might be able to kill 70 poeple. Maybe.
But he will be qickly found and stopped. He cna be diasrmed. Heavy weaponry can be restricted.
And a warrior is not a danger agaisnt his own will.

Then become a spirit warrior and stop being a worthless mundane if you are so concerned about the powers of mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
I was just joking, because this events deserve mage, of course, and it's a fact you can barely use. But it's not a reason to not try to evolve the condition of everyone. that's happened, it's fate!  I m open minded, and i always hope that other people can discuss about a solution in the problem of Thedas. Do nothing is not a solution, so don't you think it's time to evolve ?

Improvements can be almost always made.

But these perfect sunshine "solutions" that people propose are about as realistic a goal as is building a Dyson sphere in a year.

Mages roaming free and living with mundanes in cities and villages is a step backwards.

Oversight can be increased to reduice tempalr abuse - but it will never go away compeltely. No perfect oversight method exists and it can't exist - especially not in a medieval world. You are caught in the struggle between control and efficiency. You can't have both.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
In this tread, the discussion turns into the rights of the mage/oppression and if mage are dangerous because of their gift or not

That is not debatable. They are.

Even DG thinks so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
All you need to do is listen to Anders describe the circles. If you think people are going to accept those conditions in any way but grudgingly (which will lead to a revolt one day, like the current war), you're a bit out of touch with reality.

Anders the emo whineboy? Yeah..too bad his experiences are directly contradicted with experiences from others.
Some mages hate it because they desire more.
Others are happy in there.

As long as you keep obssesing over what you don't have or what you could have, you will never be happy in life anyway. Anders is too focused on what he doesn't have instead of what he does have.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Then become a spirit warrior and stop being a worthless mundane if you are so concerned about the powers of mages.

Good thing it's completely reasonable to expect every single mundane in the world to become a capable mage hunter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I wish to respectfully disagree. A prison is a cage.

And fortunately the Circle is neither a prison nor a cage.

If the mages perceive it as a prison, does it matter?

Do all mages agree that it's a prison?
No?
Then who cares.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

News-flash. Mages are also part of humanity as we understand it.

That's the position you need to justify.  As it is, you're simply asserting it to be true with no justification offered.  You hold it to be self-evident.

That's a natural rights position.

I'm not gonna get into semantics and the definition of "what makes a human a human".
It will lead to nowhere.

Yes, I consider what I said self-evident. What, you want me to prove to you that humans breathe too or that the sun rises each morning?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

News-flash. Mages are also part of humanity as we understand it.

That's the position you need to justify.  As it is, you're simply asserting it to be true with no justification offered.  You hold it to be self-evident.

That's a natural rights position.

I'm not gonna get into semantics and the definition of "what makes a human a human".
It will lead to nowhere.

Yes, I consider what I said self-evident. What, you want me to prove to you that humans breathe too or that the sun rises each morning?

I want you to show that it matters.  I'm not asking you to define what makes a human a human.  I'm asking you to define what makes a human valuable.

Until we get that, we can't go anywhere in the mage discussion, because we just talk past each other.

You're working from an initial premise that all humans are equally valuable, even when some humans are markedly different.  Why?

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Improvements can be almost always made.
But these perfect sunshine "solutions" that people propose are about as realistic a goal as is building a Dyson sphere in a year.
Mages roaming free and living with mundanes in cities and villages is a step backwards.
Oversight can be increased to reduice tempalr abuse - but it will never go away compeltely. No perfect oversight method exists and it can't exist - especially not in a medieval world. You are caught in the struggle between control and efficiency. You can't have both.

There is not perfect solution, but there are some better solution than other, to evolve the status of the mage. (I think your Dyson sphere is a little too crazy !!! )

I think mage can live with mundanes if there are templar in this cities and village. This ll not result a new tevinter empire, because templar didn't exist in this time.

I don't say that we don't need templar, and i can agree that we could need more, but they must do the same job, and follow the same rules (no more and no less), regardless of Chantry prescriptions in every Circle (and city/village if we accept this).
We are in medieval world, but also a fantastic/fantasy world, everything is possible, just believe in it !

That is not debatable. They are.
Even DG thinks so.

For the 70 death that a mage did, do you read the post in which i told that firearm (because some relate magic to firearm) can do the same as magic ? In danmark, Breivik killed 69 commoners in less than one day, and he is still alive !
You don't need magic do be dangerous, and if you are lucky or use the right tool, you can even erase a city without knowing magic (blackpowder courtesy quest, and the saar-qamek for exemple)

Modifié par thibaut72, 09 novembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
 Rigid morals shoud be instilled regarding when to use it.

You and your morals.
Morality doesn't stop crimes. Fear of punishment does.

So, humanity sucks and must be held in fear for their own good? A person can't be good without fear? I had a similar discussion over morality in the absence of religion. All I gained was the fear of the faithful.
Humanity isn't that bad and morality is simply a base for decision-making. If one has been taught from day one that demon-dealing is acceptable under no circumstances, that can be called a part of their morals. Similar beliefs can be instilled over the proper use of magic.