817 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
You've used [loaded] terms that fail to depict what the Circle is actually like.

I think it's you that has no idea what a prison is like. Do you think the inmates are starved, or somehow deprived of education opportunities? Because that's not true.

In fact, there are prisons in our world that are much nicer than the Circle system. 

http://www.cracked.c...l-problems.html

Click that link and check out Bastoy Prison and Halden Prison of Norway, in section #3 of that article. Keep in mind that the people staying in these facilities have actually commited crimes, terrible ones, whereas most mages have not. Pay special attention to the incredible drop in their crime rate.

Turns out that when you treat people humanely, they're more likely to act humanely. Funny how that works.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 novembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Adanu]

Death_Acolyte wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You've used [loaded] terms that fail to depict what the Circle is actually like.

I think it's you that has no idea what a prison is like. Do you think the inmates are starved, or somehow deprived of education opportunities? Because that's not true.

In fact, there are prisons in our world that are much nicer than the Circle system. 

http://www.cracked.c...l-problems.html

Click that link and check out Bastoy Prison and Halden Prison of Norway, in section #3 of that article. Keep in mind that the people staying in this facility have actually commited crimes, terrible ones, whereas most mages have not. Pay special attention to the incredible drop in their crime rate.

Turns out that when you treat people humanely, they're more likely to act humanely. Funny how that works.

Too bad this concept isnt really grasped by lots o people to this day

Here or in Thedas it seems. You treat mages like animals, and then you're surprised when they revolt and start a global war. Seriously.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You've used [loaded] terms that fail to depict what the Circle is actually like.

I think it's you that has no idea what a prison is like. Do you think the inmates are starved, or somehow deprived of education opportunities? Because that's not true.

In fact, there are prisons in our world that are much nicer than the Circle system. 

http://www.cracked.c...l-problems.html

Click that link and check out Bastoy Prison and Halden Prison of Norway, in section #3 of that article. Keep in mind that the people staying in this facility have actually commited crimes, terrible ones, whereas most mages have not. Pay special attention to the incredible drop in their crime rate.

Turns out that when you treat people humanely, they're more likely to act humanely. Funny how that works.

What does an irl 21st century prison system have to do with DA which is a high fantasy seting inspired by medieval europe, and what does crime rates have to do with mages being prone to demonic possessions 24/7 regardless of their mental condition?

@ the bolded - does that apply to all the victims of the Imperium too?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 novembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
What does an irl 21st century prison system have to do with DA which is a high fantasy seting inspired by  medieval europe

Everything. People are people and will act like people. Time and location are irrelevent.

and what does crime rates have to do with mages being prone to demonic possessions 24/7 regardless of their mental condition.

Not every mage who behaves badly is possessed, and it's well-established that individuals with fragile mental or emotional states are more susceptible to possession. There is no "regardless of mental condition". Mental condition is a major contributing factor.

Treat mages better, and the mage "crime rate" will likely drop, even if all other factors stay the same.

@ the bolded - does that apply to all the victims of the Imperium too?

We have virtually no information about the Imperium, so it's hard to say. However, the few examples we have seen so far do support the bolded statement.

Fenris is a prime example. He was not treated humanely, so he does not behave humanely. The fact that Danarius was a mage is irrelevent, he would've treated Fenris badly regardless. Fenris himself does not understand this fact, because he is blinded by his hatred, and so lashes out at mages and magic generally, even though they are not responsible for his poor treatment.

Orana, on the other hand, behaves humanely despite her poor treatment, but there will always be exceptions.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 novembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[BlueMagitek]

Adanu wrote...

Here or in Thedas it seems. You treat mages like animals, and then you're surprised when they revolt and start a global war. Seriously.

If you treat mages like people, they pull an Atlantis on the cultures of others, abuse & mutilate thousands of innocent people and deplete a vast majority of natural resources to break into another plane.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
If you treat mages like people, they pull an Atlantis on the cultures of others,

There's no proof that this has happened, and even if it did, said "other culture" was also full of mages. All it shows is that humans can be dicks generally. 

abuse & mutilate thousands of innocent people

Mundane civilizations are just as capable of the same feat, and indeed, have performed it. 

and deplete a vast majority of natural resources to break into another plane.

And who says that travelling to another dimension is always an objectively terrible thing?

We deplete natural resources every goddamn day, and we're not doing anything like as impresive as that

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Everything. People are people and will act like people. Time and location are irrelevent.

Intellectually, philosophically, and technologically there's no comparison.

Not every mage who behaves badly is possessed, and it's well-established that individuals with fragile mental or emotional states are more susceptible to possession. There is no "regardless of mental condition". Mental condition is a major contributing factor.

Treat mages better, and the mage "crime rate" will likely drop, even if all other factors stay the same.

This ignores the fact that not every mage has the same level of magical aptitude, common sense nor will power to resist demons like the Warden, Morrigan, Bethany, and Hawke.

On the other hand mages like Merrill lacked the will power and common sense to resist Wryme's offer, Marethari lacked logic and common sense, Anders lacked the common sense needed to realize that merging with Justice might not be such a good idea, Feynriel being a rare type of mage with every demon in the fade gunning for him, or Meredith's sister along with Thrask's daughter and Connor lacking circle training. All of the above examples didn't have a templar kicking dirt in their face while calling them names as a catalyst for their possession or episode of stupidity in Merrill's case. 

Orana, on the other hand, behaves humanely despite her poor treatment, but there will always be exceptions.

She was a brainwashed psychophant who felt more sympathy towards Hadriana who moments earlier killed her father, and friends to empower her lame blood magic. It seems tthe Qunari might have a rival in the brainwashing department.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[The Hierophant]

oops

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You've used [loaded] terms that fail to depict what the Circle is actually like.

I think it's you that has no idea what a prison is like. Do you think the inmates are starved...

Strawmanning.

In fact, there are prisons in our world that are much nicer than the Circle system. 

http://www.cracked.c...l-problems.html

Click that link and check out Bastoy Prison and Halden Prison of Norway, in section #3 of that article. Keep in mind that the people staying in these facilities have actually commited crimes, terrible ones, whereas most mages have not.

I'm well aware of the prisons of Norway and how if I commited mass scale murder there I'd aquire a better standard of living than what I have now.

Obviously prisons such as this one are exceptionally rare and not the norm so saying "this is what REAL prison is like" is pretty silly.
 

Pay special attention to the incredible drop in their crime rate.

Turns out that when you treat people humanely, they're more likely to act humanely. Funny how that works.

That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Death_Acolyte wrote...
Too bad this concept isnt really grasped by lots o people to this day

Why am I seeing idealism and naivety being spouted by an Azula avatar?

Modifié par GodWood, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
Intellectually, philosophically, and technologically there's no comparison.

Of course there's a comparison. Our brains didn't work any differently in the Middle Ages than they do now. Changes in philosophy can occur any time.

Technological comparisons are irrelevent. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval bigotry. Technology and morality have no connection to each other.
 

This ignores the fact that not every mage has the same level of magical aptitude, common sense nor will power to resist demons like the Warden, Morrigan, Bethany, and Hawke.

I'm not ignoring those factors, they are irrelevent. Basic sociology and commonsense dictates that if mages are treated better, they will behave better, even if all other factors remain equal.

On the other hand mages like Merrill lacked the will power and common sense to resist Wryme's offer

All the other party members, bar Anders, succumb to demonic influence in the Fade. Holding Merrill to a higher standard of behaviour just because she's a mage is total hypocrisy.

Feynriel being a rare type of mage with every demon in the fade gunning for him,

What does that have to do with anything? 

All of the above examples didn't have a templar kicking dirt in their face while calling them names as a catalyst for their possession or episode of stupidity in Merrill's case.

This argument is seriously obtuse. The Templars have everything to do with most of the cases you listed. 

Ending the abuses of the was Circle Ander's sole motivation for allowing Justice to merge with him. Not to mention that he was constantly being hounded by Templars in his personal life.

Fear of the Templars was what caused Feynriel to run away from home. If you choose to send him to the Circle, he continues to be plagued by demons regardless, so having theTemplars around makes no appreciable difference to his situation.

Knowledge of the abuses committed in the Circle (by men he worked with, no less) is why Thrask allowed his daughter to escape in a moment of weakness.

Fear of losing her child was what motivated Isolde to conceal Connor's talents, and the same goes for Meredith's parents.

The actions of these individuals are all perfectly justified. They were trying to protect the freedom and lives of themselves and others, from people who would abuse them. Knowing what they might've suffered, what Connor might still suffer, I cannot and will not condemn them.

She was a brainwashed psychophant who felt more sympathy towards Hadriana who moments earlier killed her father, and friends to empower her lame blood magic. It seems tthe Qunari might have a rival in the brainwashing department.

Yes, and Fenris was much the same prior to his encounter with the Fog Warriors. What's your point?

Orana and Fenris were both raised as slaves from birth. Prior to her encounter with Hawke and co., Orana knew no other way to live. That's to be expected, and only proves that you don't need magic to have effective control over someone else's mind.

But none of that is relevant to the point I was making before, which was that people who are abused are likely to become abusers themselves, mage or no.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

It would be, except it applies to every single aspect of society, not just to Norwegian prisons and the Circle. It's common knowledge, commonsense, and a lesson so incredibly simple to grasp that it's routinely taught on the first day of Kindergarten.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

It would be, except it applies to every single aspect of society, not just to Norwegian prisons and the Circle.

No, in the case of Norwegian prisons, assuming that the drop in crime is because of the fact that they're "treated humanely" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's entirely possible but you'd need much more evidence to back up that claim.

As for Circle, what exactly about it is "inhumane"? As I've pointed out so many times in this thread (and others) the standard of living is better than the majority of the population and quite luxurious and liberal considering the pseudo-medieval setting.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Plaintiff wrote...

Turns out that when you treat people humanely, they're more likely to act humanely. Funny how that works.

lol humans maybe ... potentially monsterous blood mages, NO! 

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Of course there's a comparison. Our brains didn't work any differently in the Middle Ages than they do now. Changes in philosophy can occur any time.

Technological comparisons are irrelevent. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval bigotry. Technology and morality have no connection to each other.

You're imposing irl western 21st values on a Medieval society who's yet to reach any sort of Renaissance type era, and Industrial age.
 

I'm not ignoring those factors, they are irrelevent. Basic sociology and commonsense dictates that if mages are treated better, they will behave better, even if all other factors remain equal.

I doubt it because it ignores  personalities, temperments, reactions to stressors, their beliefs, experiences, etc. and it implies that every mage is abused but it lacks the evidence to support the assertion.

Based on what your implying mages like Irving, Wynne Niall, Bethany, Morrigan, Alain are all anomalies in the mage community.

All the other party members, bar Anders, succumb to demonic influence in the Fade. Holding Merrill to a higher standard of behaviour just because she's a mage is total hypocrisy.

 
There's no excuse as Merril uses blood magic that drastically increases her chances of contact with demons. If she succumbed to Wryme's influence that easily then what's stopping a another demon from doing the same?

What does that have to do with anything?

Feynriel wasn't prone to possession soley on his mental state of being as it's implied that the demons were actively hunting him.

This argument is seriously obtuse. The Templars have everything to do with most of the cases you listed. 

Ending the abuses of the was Circle Ander's sole motivation for allowing Justice to merge with him. Not to mention that he was constantly being hounded by Templars in his personal life.

What does this have to do with Anders unwittingly merging with Justice out of a misguided sense of comraderie?

Fear of the Templars was what caused Feynriel to run away from home. If you choose to send him to the Circle, he continues to be plagued by demons regardless, so having theTemplars around makes no appreciable difference to his situation.

Same thing happens if Feynriel is sent to the Dalish, meaning that the  Templars are not the catalyst but the demons who were clamoring to possess a Fade Walker.

Knowledge of the abuses committed in the Circle (by men he worked with, no less) is why Thrask allowed his daughter to escape in a moment of weakness.

If she had circle training she would've fried the slavers without turning into an abomination.

Fear of losing her child was what motivated Isolde to conceal Connor's talents, and the same goes for Meredith's parents'

The actions of these individuals are all perfectly justified. They were trying to protect the freedom and lives of themselves and others, from people who would abuse them. Knowing what they might've suffered, what Connor might still suffer, I cannot and will not condemn them.

Isolde and Meredith's parents unwittingly deprived their children of the proper training needed to combat demons. There's no justification for Redcliffe having the majority of it' residents killed nor is there for 70 villagers being killed. 

Yes, and Fenris was much the same prior to his encounter with the Fog Warriors. What's your point?

Calling slavery and blatant brainwashing humane is laughable as there's nothing humane about Orana's ordeal.

Orana and Fenris were both raised as slaves from birth. Prior to her encounter with Hawke and co., Orana knew no other way to live. That's to be expected, and only proves that you don't need magic to have effective control over someone else's mind.

But none of that is relevant to the point I was making before, which was that people who are abused are likely to become abusers themselves, mage or no.

None of this changes the fact that demons actively hunt mages and will try to possess them even if they're mentally sound.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 novembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[ledod]

hhh89 wrote...

Agreed on Anders's naivety (and probably Justice, since no matter how much I dislike it, I don't think it wanted to became a demon). About Justice turning into a demon, it became a demon a few moments after it merged with Anders, I believe. It wasn't Justice's intention to become a demon. It was corrupted and changed by Anders's negative emotions. In Act 1, it was already Vengeance. Neither Justice and Anders had control on Justice's transformation.
Vengeance went against Anders's will only in the rivarly path (with great success, since Anders had no change to stop it), and it might have influenced (or mold) Anders in the friendship path. But that's after he became a demon, a transformation that happened agaisnt both Ander's and Justice's intentions.

'Demon' is charged with real-world connotation. Our interpration of demons are as specific enties that are sadistic/malevolent. Demons of Thedas, however, are simply a designation for spirits that attach themselves to specific realms of the human experience. Whether or not there is a literal tangible difference between spirits of different colors is yet to be determined- there seems to be a universal malleability characteristic of all spirits of the fade. An entirely alchemical potential to undergo an ego metamorphosis is a very interesting observation one becomes aware of with the characer 'Vengeance'; Vengeance represents a paradigm shift from a compulsion to vindicate to an obessesion with revenge. Most striking is the apparent lack of egotistical context upon the 'birth' of Vengeance; Vegeance lacks any really concept of his former self.

An intriguing question arises: if a demon posseses an especially willful mage, can the mage reform the demon?

[ledod]

Rojahar wrote...

Mages serve the chantry, but mages are meant to serve man. Pretty sure the OP means the chantry's screwed things up because its run by women.

lol, was with you until I got to the word "women."

[Adanu]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Here or in Thedas it seems. You treat mages like animals, and then you're surprised when they revolt and start a global war. Seriously.

If you treat mages like people, they pull an Atlantis on the cultures of others, abuse & mutilate thousands of innocent people and deplete a vast majority of natural resources to break into another plane.

Presumptions based on a select group fo people living in another time. You, nor I, can tell the future... but we can predict that acting like a dick to other people generally makes people lash back at said people.

Kick the dog enough, and it bites back.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with exploration. The intent of said event is the problem here. Don't cloud the issue with strawmen. The issue here is that treating every single mage like they are lucky to be alive and kicking them for being what they are is what caused the war. This is not opinion, it's fact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
Presumptions based on a select group fo people living in another time. You, nor I, can tell the future... but we can predict that acting like a dick to other people generally makes people lash back at said people.

And I can also predict that letting mages roam free will result in death and destruction.

Kick the dog enough, and it bites back.

And a rabbid an/ord dangerous dog should be held on a leash.

The issue here is that treating every single mage like they are lucky to
be alive and kicking them for being what they are is what caused the
war. This is not opinion, it's fact.

No. Mages being unreasonable and wanting always more is what caused the war.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 novembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
What does an irl 21st century prison system have to do with DA which is a high fantasy seting inspired by  medieval europe

Everything. People are people and will act like people. Time and location are irrelevent.

Only an idiot can claim that.

Things don't exist in a vacuum. Time and location DO matter.

For one, neither Circle nor prisons in TheDas can work like modern ones, because they lack not only modern socoilogical and cultural changes, but also technological ones that made the whole thing possible in the first place.

Treat mages better, and the mage "crime rate" will likely drop, even if all other factors stay the same.

Treat mages better DOES NOT EQUAL letting them run around free.

[DKJaigen]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

It would be, except it applies to every single aspect of society, not just to Norwegian prisons and the Circle.

No, in the case of Norwegian prisons, assuming that the drop in crime is because of the fact that they're "treated humanely" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's entirely possible but you'd need much more evidence to back up that claim.

As for Circle, what exactly about it is "inhumane"? As I've pointed out so many times in this thread (and others) the standard of living is better than the majority of the population and quite luxurious and liberal considering the pseudo-medieval setting.

One evil makes the other one right does it? But it does not matter what you point out the mages disagree with your assesment. But mages are not as well treated as you make it out to be as you can see in both fereldan , orlais and especially kirkwall. But the biggest logic failure of yours is that the mages are the ones that keep the the tevinter imperium qunuari and the darkspawn at bay. So treat them with the respect they deserve. Furthermore  this also the people that can destroy nations when provoked and yet templars seem hell bent on pissing the mages of. We all know that the templars where marching to andorhals reach at the end of Asunder . Yet a few years later its confirmed by Varric that the mages are waging a succesful and destructive war.This because most templars have likely have sufferd an accute case of death. 

If a system does work and blow  up in your face then why so eager to put in back into place. Thedas cannot afford this and the consequenses of that war are enormous. So in my opinion is this: give the mages what they want.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...
Intellectually, philosophically, and technologically there's no comparison.[/quote]
Of course there's a comparison. Our brains didn't work any differently in the Middle Ages than they do now. Changes in philosophy can occur any time.

Technological comparisons are irrelevent. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval bigotry. Technology and morality have no connection to each other.[/quote]

They do.
You cannot implement social changes of today directly into the middle ages.
It is just not possible. THE PREQUISITES ARE NOT THERE.

You fail at history.
You fail at basic psychology and understanding if you claim otherwise.
 

Aslo, if 100 years from now future generations think of us as backwards and totally wrong and the middle age morality right, what then?
What happens then to your ultimate moral standards?
Wouldnt' they be even more advanced and developed making them more right?


[quote]
This argument is seriously obtuse. The Templars have everything to do with most of the cases you listed. [/quote]

But of course.. I bet they killed JFK and faked the moon landing.
And they are keepign Elvis prisoner because he's a mage.


[quote]
The actions of these individuals are all perfectly justified. They were trying to protect the freedom and lives of themselves and others, from people who would abuse them. Knowing what they might've suffered, what Connor might still suffer, I cannot and will not condemn them. [/qutoe]

And the action of the templars and the Chantry are even MORE perfectly justified.

The actions of the individuals you mentions are nothing but self-serving. Trying to avoid loss to themselves even if it means endagering thousands of others.
Isolde was a tool. Anders was a tool.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

It would be, except it applies to every single aspect of society, not just to Norwegian prisons and the Circle.

No, in the case of Norwegian prisons, assuming that the drop in crime is because of the fact that they're "treated humanely" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. It's entirely possible but you'd need much more evidence to back up that claim.

As for Circle, what exactly about it is "inhumane"? As I've pointed out so many times in this thread (and others) the standard of living is better than the majority of the population and quite luxurious and liberal considering the pseudo-medieval setting.

The problem is that Plaintiff and those like him/her, do not care what are the standards of the wrold or how others are threated OR what makes sense withing the contexyt of the setting.
Only how much mages can get.