817 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
One can teach a basis for decision-making. If they are taught to put the good of the whole above themselves, the problem is not only solved, but you have mages doing good deeds for the fun of it. That base for their decisions must be set early and then the problem solves itself.

Yeah, parents have been trxying to do that since the begining of time.
Society at large has been trying to do that.
Schools have been trying to do that.

Not much sucess, since we still have an endless sea of bad and stupid people.

So how exactly is your education plan different that it guarantees sucess?
Don't just tell me it will work, when every single hisotorical example proves you wrong.

Even the mages that are currently in the Circle. Do you really think that every single one of them would turn to blood magic and demons if they were released? You think they don't understand the potential danger of their powers?

Strawman. No one ever said theat every single mage would turn.

And wether or not they understand the danger of their powers is not really relevant.
Humans understand the danger of firearms. They understand the danger of fire. They understand the danger of speeding and driving while drunk.
Yet all of those things still happen and cause death.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The molding never stops.
You never will be the only influence on them if you let them into the world. Contact with others and the realities of the world will mold them differently than you want.

Your solution does not work. You will never get the "perfect mages" you think of.

Sure it does. Look at us right now. You are so set in your thoughts that you refuse to see my side. I'm so set in mine that I refuse to accept yours. Pages of interaction and not the slightest sway in either opinion.
Teach a mage to be equally stubborn in refusing demons, refusing to put himself before others. You think it can't be done, but you and I are proof that it can.

No, it can't be done.
For one, I formed my oppionion based on evidence presented. Different evidence can change my oppinion (but not likely given that no such evidence was presented).

People change. People are influenced by the world. This is one of the basic sociological principles.

And b.t.w - I do see your side. It's just that it's so totally wrong in it's basic concepts that I'd have to be drunk to accept it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The thing is that the offenders in your examples had a choice to commit those crimes in contrast to every mage potentially being worn like a meat suit against their will by some carnivorous entity that enjoy's destruction, and misery.

It sounds like you think that every free mage will become an abomination. The Circle doesn't protect against demons, so mages can still be contacted. They are no safer in the Circle than out, except outside the Circle they have one less reason to take the deal.

And this shows you do no understand the purpose of the Circles at all.

If a mage falls inside a Circle, there are templars around to bring it down quickly - and there are no mundanes around to butcher.

If a mage falls outside the Cirlce...death and destruction. And abominatiosn love attacking other mages and brining them into the fold.

If oyu cna't see the difference here, I cna't help you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

I don't believe unwilling possession is possible, but the rage demon in the mage origin suggested that he could simply(try to) overwhelm you. Which is why the Harrowing is designed as it is. Fight a weaker demon, reject a stronger one.

Bloody hell. This again.

Look, DG confirmed that demons can take over by force.
This is not up for debate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Nothing of what you said changes the fact that every mage is a conduit/gateway to the fade making them all potential prey for demons regardless if they passed the Harrowing or not. When you have people like that scattered all over the country side or in densely populated areas instead pre determined locations it would take longer for the authorities to stop the destruction during the former as there is no horses in Thedas whatsoever, and the potential death toll increases in the later.

I never said that it did. But abominations result from mages dealing with demons, with fewer reasons to do so, you have fewer abominations, in addition to more templars who don't have to watch good mages and can instead focus on defending local populations from maleficar and abominations.

You fail at logistical planing here.
You'd need A LOT more templars, not less. And it would still not be enough.

Fewer reason? No, you just think that. You removed 1 reason, added a dozen others. Mages living with mundanes will have whole NEW reasons to turn abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Besides, a weak mage can still be possessed.[/quote]
Everyone can be possessed. Your non-mage party companions fall under demonic influence when taken into the Fade, in both games. The Harriman family fell under demoinc influence even though none of them apparently had any magical talent prior to the release of the demon. Templars were possessed in Origins, and forcibly possessed in DA2. Viscount Khedra was possessed and I'm pretty sure he wasn't a mage, though I can't confirm it. Meredith allowed herself to be manipulated by voices in her head that may or may not have been demonic in origin.[/quote]

....

Tehre is no comparions.
Mundanes CAN be possesed, but it requires SPECIAL and RARE circumstances.
The resulting possesion is FAR WEAKER than a possesed mage

A mage abomination can tear open the veil, summon more demons and force them into others. Like what Uldred tried to do in thetower.
which is why mages are so dangerous.


You insist on arguming the point long after you have been proven wrong.

Do some searching, you fill find that DG confirms it. Demons barely even register mundanes, while mages are like huge, shiny beacons.
Demons can only rarely interact with mundanes at all, while they can almost always reach out to a mage.





[quote]
"We'll just recruit and brainwash a bunch of violent douchebags and then unleash them on a population that we've taught them to view as subhuman. What could possibly go wrong?"[/qutoe]

Except that's not what happens.
Youre sellisious are fun, but the strawmen is so redicolous it falls part during construction.


It's about as accurate as this:
"We mages are whiny emo, bastards who want everything to themselves and who want to conquer the world. We don't want any resposibiltiy or restraint! Deeeeeerp"

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Merril was so focused on the mirror that she lost sight of the bigger picture. Mages must be trained to never allow that to happen. They must always be on their guard for fear of slipping up, hurting someone. Hypnotic suggestion only works if the individual is willing to allow it to happen.

Again with the "perfect human being" scenario?

[The Elder King]

ledod wrote...



'Demon' is charged with real-world connotation. Our interpration of demons are as specific enties that are sadistic/malevolent. Demons of Thedas, however, are simply a designation for spirits that attach themselves to specific realms of the human experience. Whether or not there is a literal tangible difference between spirits of different colors is yet to be determined- there seems to be a universal malleability characteristic of all spirits of the fade. An entirely alchemical potential to undergo an ego metamorphosis is a very interesting observation one becomes aware of with the characer 'Vengeance'; Vengeance represents a paradigm shift from a compulsion to vindicate to an obessesion with revenge. Most striking is the apparent lack of egotistical context upon the 'birth' of Vengeance; Vegeance lacks any really concept of his former self.

An intriguing question arises: if a demon posseses an especially willful mage, can the mage reform the demon?

In my first post on Anders-Justice, I said that Justice became a demon/malicious spirit. I know that for some the term is incorrect, but I use the two terms in the same way (and demon is shorter ). Regardless, demons is a term used by Andrastians. Even if it might be wrong, it's not incorrect to use it.
I don't know what's the difference between spirits and demons for sure.  I don't know why some spirits aren't interested in mortals and others want to go in Thedas and possess people. It might depends from the human emotions/values they represent.
I think that all spirits should stay away from mortals, since they belief, even when they are the "positive" spirits, might be too extremists for the mortal realm (Justice was already too extremist for Thedas).
About your question, I think it's impossible for a mage to reform a demon that possessed him. It might be possible the opposite case of what happened with Anders-Justice: the positive emotions of the mage influence the demon/malicious spirit and change it. But I find it doubtful, since there should be some case in history.
"Spirit" possession happened rarely, in comparison of "demonic" possession. In Rivain the seers let the spirits possess them, but I think they choose the people who are going to be possessed to limit the possibility of what happened to Anders to happen (and problems still occur).

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The thing is that the offenders in your examples had a choice to commit those crimes in contrast to every mage potentially being worn like a meat suit against their will by some carnivorous entity that enjoy's destruction, and misery.

It sounds like you think that every free mage will become an abomination. The Circle doesn't protect against demons, so mages can still be contacted. They are no safer in the Circle than out, except outside the Circle they have one less reason to take the deal.

And this shows you do no understand the purpose of the Circles at all.

If a mage falls inside a Circle, there are templars around to bring it down quickly - and there are no mundanes around to butcher.

If a mage falls outside the Cirlce...death and destruction. And abominatiosn love attacking other mages and brining them into the fold.

If oyu cna't see the difference here, I cna't help you.

And yet we have seen that the templars have failed to contain abominations so far. the fereldan circle  was a close call indeed and the danger was even greater because their where so many mages for uldred to turn into abominations.

[DKJaigen]

To be honest lotion your arguments are irrelevant you because cannot prove how many mages turn into abominations. it could be that you have more chance to be killed by lighting , darkspawn or a drunken noble then by an abomination.

[thibaut72]

@hhh89 : Justice can be cold and emotionless ; if in a society, thieves are punished by death and if you have the right to kill, when you ll see a starved child stole a bread, will you kill him ? Spirit of the Fade have extreme and exacerbated motivation/feeling. They are, like a fly with honey, attracted by the same feeling in the Fade which is also the world of dreamers, and the material plane.

@Lotion Soronar : if you can read the history of Europe, or other country, you can see that immobilism and conservatism never bring something good to a society. We, of course don't know the future, but after the recent events in DA, your system fail ! And you want to do it again in worse, with more restriction to mages ?
The system will not change in one day, but it need to be change ; we can keep the circle, but we can also allow mages to go out ; more templar, ok ! need phylactery, ok !
There is a lot of apostate in Thedas, Flemeth, Morrigan, Wynne, Merryl, your warden, your Hawke, Bethany, for the most famous, do we need to let them go without the supervision of Templar, or must they go in the circle ? They are all mages, and potentialy dangerous ; will they succomb to demons ? Don't argue they have strong will, they are mage. You can't define the limit of a strong will.
And if we can encounter more and more people taint with red lyrium, as Meredith who is more dangerous than a single mage, what will you do ?

[General User]

Auintus wrote...

General User wrote...

That wouldn't work.  Magic is too extreme a factor.   It's misuse cannot be prevented through roughly the same methods used to teach children table manners or prevent them from using curse words. 

Out in the wide open of Thedas, the incentives to misuse magic would simply be too powerful and pervasive.  All mages must be monitored constantly throughout their lives to insure (for their own good and for everyone else's) that they stay on the straight and narrow, and the most practical and humane way to do that is to consign them to Circles.

One can teach a basis for decision-making. If they are taught to put the good of the whole above themselves, the problem is not only solved, but you have mages doing good deeds for the fun of it. That base for their decisions must be set early and then the problem solves itself.

Sorry, but people just don't work that way.  There simply is no method of education or training that will consistently (to any significant degree) hold up when both human nature and society at large provide far more compelling and consistent pressure to act to the contrary.

Even the mages that are currently in the Circle. Do you really think that every single one of them would turn to blood magic and demons if they were released?

Virtually every mage will indeed turn to bloodmagic and/or demons if they find themselves in an extreme enough situation.  Outside of a controlled environment there is simply no way to predict when to to whom those extreme situations will occur.  Not to mention the fact that what would qualify as an "extreme" situation would vary enormously from mage to mage.

You think they don't understand the potential danger of their powers?

I think they understand the potential power of their powers. 

Modifié par General User, 10 novembre 2012 - 12:13 .

[The Elder King]

thibaut72 wrote...

@hhh89 : Justice can be cold and emotionless ; if in a society, thieves are punished by death and if you have the right to kill, when you ll see a starved child stole a bread, will you kill him ? Spirit of the Fade have extreme and exacerbated motivation/feeling. They are, like a fly with honey, attracted by the same feeling in the Fade which is also the world of dreamers, and the material plane.

Your example is a bit exaggerated. If in a society there's a law where thieves are punished by death sentence, before executing someone the judges or who had to take the decision (the arle in Amaranthine, for example) would take in consideration the situation. I'd never kill a children that stole a bread because he was starving. Don't know about Justice,  since he might think that the child's stealing the bread was justice, as it already thought in DAA that mages should rebel.
I agree that Justice can be cold and emotionless. It's an ideal that should be always mitigated by considering the motivation that lead a person to act in a way, so that the punishment might be decreased or annulled in determinate cases. Justice will not consider this, and the other spirits. That's why I said in my post that spirits in general should stay away from mortal. Not everyone might act like Justice or other spirits/malicious spirits (Faith with Wynne is different from Justice). but the risk it too high.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 novembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And this shows you do no understand the purpose of the Circles at all.

If a mage falls inside a Circle, there are templars around to bring it down quickly - and there are no mundanes around to butcher.

If a mage falls outside the Cirlce...death and destruction. And abominatiosn love attacking other mages and brining them into the fold.

If you can't see the difference here, I cna't help you.

And yet we have seen that the templars have failed to contain abominations so far. the fereldan circle  was a close call indeed and the danger was even greater because their where so many mages for uldred to turn into abominations.

Where have they failed?
The Ferdelen Cirlce was on of the biggest abomination outbreaks ever, and wether you want to admit it or not, it was contained.
Abominations seek to bring more of their kind int othis world, which is why the isolation of the Circles is such a good idea to begin with. Instead of thousands of ill-equiped pesants, there is only a hunderd people around (mages and templars) who CAN deal with it before things to worse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest lotion your arguments are irrelevant you because cannot prove how many mages turn into abominations. it could be that you have more chance to be killed by lighting , darkspawn or a drunken noble then by an abomination.

Oh? How many nukes have been detonated in cities so far? I guess that makes keeping nukes guarded and away from cities silly?

Mages and especially abominations are dangerous and it happens often enough that the Circles were seen as necesary.
The lore confirmes it.
WoG confirms it.

You can refuse to accept it as much as you like, but the facts stand.

[TEWR]

She was a brainwashed psychophant who felt more sympathy towards Hadriana who moments earlier killed her father, and friends to empower her lame blood magic.

Orana's rationale for that wasn't too hard to understand. She says that while most people would like to think slaves remain oblivious to the events of their masters, they do in fact pay attention. And that she saw how Hadriana suffered ridicule and mistreatment from other Magisters, which gradually tore away at her soul.

The Ferdelen Cirlce was on of the biggest abomination outbreaks ever, and wether you want to admit it or not, it was contained.

Yeah, by Wynne's barrier. The Templars did nothing that actually contained the situation. Wynne did. Her barrier kept the Demons and Abominations from pouring out in droves and let her deal with any that did manage to come by easily.

The door the Templars sealed had no real effect on containing the situation, despite what the Templars would like to believe. They'd like to think those doors were the only things keeping the situation contained.... but they weren't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 novembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

@Lotion Soronar : if you can read the history of Europe, or other country, you can see that immobilism and conservatism never bring something good to a society. We, of course don't know the future, but after the recent events in DA, your system fail !

I studied history, thank you very much. Your assertions are incorrect. Conservatism has and can bring good things to society. Wether you fin it worth ot or not is debatable of course (as are most things).

The Circle system didn't fail. Rebellion is not an indication of faliure. The effectiveness of the system is.
For a thousand yers the Circle system has kept the lands safer. For a thousand years it worked.
That now, a series of unfortuante events lead to some mages rebeling, and some following suit - it is regrettable, but it doesn't indicate that the system is broken any more that a prison rebellion indicates that a prison system is broken.

And you want to do it again in worse, with more restriction to mages ?
The
system will not change in one day, but it need to be change ; we can
keep the circle, but we can also allow mages to go out ; more templar,
ok ! need phylactery, ok !

If mages can learn to behave there would be no need for more restrictions. Some Circles have been pretty lax.
And no, letting all mages out cannot work and will not work.
You ignore the effectiveness of such a solution and the underlying logistical problems.
In other words - you're not thinking it trough. A solution without detail planing and a feasabiltiuy study is not a solution. It's a dream.

Mages already live in more luxury than your average man in Thedas. For your system to "work" it would need a LOT more templars. And who will pay for them? The common man. You really think they will want even more of their money to go for mages?
Heck, trying to implement THAT solution would lead to a thedas-wide rebellion. Everyone knows people LOVE taxes.
And, even if you somehow manage to pull that off, it still wouldn't be as effective as the Circle system.

 Don't argue they have strong will, they are mage. You can't define the limit of a strong will.

I can. Infinite willpower exist only in fantasy and fairy tales.

And if we can encounter more and more people taint with red lyrium, as Meredith who is more dangerous than a single mage, what will you do ?

Meredith isn't more dangerous than a single mage. And you can take away red lyrium. It's is an item ya know.
The irrony is that Meredith was a pretty decent  templar before the idol.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She was a brainwashed psychophant who felt more sympathy towards Hadriana who moments earlier killed her father, and friends to empower her lame blood magic.

Orana's rationale for that wasn't too hard to understand. She says that while most people would like to think slaves remain oblivious to the events of their masters, they do in fact pay attention. And that she saw how Hadriana suffered ridicule and mistreatment from other Magisters, which gradually tore away at her soul.

I don't see how that excuses anything.

"Oh, you are not respected in society! Guess tha makes it OK to murder my family!"

Sounds like Stockholm syndrome.

Yeah, by Wynne's barrier. The Templars did nothing that actually contained the situation. Wynne did. Her barrier kept the Demons and Abominations from pouring out in droves and let her deal with any that did manage to come by easily.

No, by the templars and the doors.
I know you want to give Wynne the credit, but the circle was designed and built to contain them.
And the tempars did do something. They kept them contains untill the reinforcements came.

Unless you can somehow prove that without Wynnes barrier the demons would break trough?

The door the Templars sealed had no real effect on containing the situation, despite what the Templars would like to believe. They'd like to think those doors were the only things keeping the situation contained.... but they weren't.

Prove it then.
You know nothing about those doors. Are they warded? Reinforced?

And even if the Ferelden Circle DID fall, it would still prove NOTHING.
Templars don't have to have 100% efficency.

Unless of course, you claim that if even one criminal gets away - regardless of circumstances - the entire police force is useless and incapable?

[TEWR]

I don't see how that excuses anything.

It doesn't. It just makes it more understandable why she would feel bad for Hadriana, because she probably felt that way before Hadriana killed her family. 

Unless you can somehow prove that without Wynnes barrier the demons would break trough?

Well, gee... considering the fact that the Templars were wiped down to a mere fraction of their power and were injured -- and there were numerous Abominations, Demons, and possessed/charmed Templars in the halls -- had Wynne's barrier not been in effect Demons and Abominations would've poured out into the open countryside by sheer fact of overwhelming what remained.

Those doors wouldn't have stood much chance against Abominations and Demons that can control magic, summon other Demons, and have Templars forcibly under their control. 

Plus, you can see how Wynne's barrier funneled the Demons into manageable numbers for her and the surviving Mages to deal with. Demons and Abominations could only get through with great effort on their part, it seems.

Fact: You face no Demons or Abominations anywhere leading up to Wynne's area. 

Fact: After Wynne's area, you face Demons and Abominations.

Wynne's barrier was the primary reason why the situation was contained.

And even if the Ferelden Circle DID fall, it would still prove NOTHING.
Templars don't have to have 100% efficency.

So hundreds of Abominations and dozens of Demons escaping doesn't prove that the Circle failed to do what they claimed it does?

If it fails once, it can fail again. The Circle system is designed in part to keep Abominations from escaping in massive numbers and when they fail to do that... then that does mean the system failed.

Whether the system can recover and learn from that failure depends on what transpires afterwards. But it does fail if it happens.

Unless of course, you claim that if even one criminal gets away - regardless of circumstances - the entire police force is useless and incapable?

Strawman. I never claimed anything of the sort in the post you quoted. And for the sake of discussion, I'll argue it anyway right now.

And this isn't even remotely similar to one criminal escaping. It's dozens upon dozens of monsters escaping from a place that was designed to contain them in one area, should they be created.

You argue there's no real life equivalent for Mages, then go around and use a real world equivalent of criminals in our society to justify your stance of "Well, the system isn't a failure if this happened". 

Your logic is that the Mages can become dangerous warmongering nuclear weapons capable of destroying cities... but then excusing the Templars of fault -- and the system itself -- if they fail to actually keep said monstrosities contained in one area?

Bah.

You know nothing about those doors. Are they warded? Reinforced?

They're iron. That's it. Thick doors made of iron that the Avvar people used, and later on the Tevinters. And then the Chantry.

If they were warded or reinforced, we would've heard about that as it's extremely pertinent to the situation. The strength of the doors dictates how long the Templars can hold out for the RoA.

And IIRC, Gregoir is not confident that the RoA will arrive in time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 novembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[thibaut72]

@LS :
Rebellion IS an indication of failure. Noone can tell, today, it's a good and sunny day, i ll rebell against this and this. In history, there is always events in the origin of a rebellion (for good or bad raison). Spartacus rebell against romans, the French Revolution, the North/south war in US, so many exemple in every continent ! Immobilism and consevatism (and i don't tell about implication of the Chuch) in Europe killed in Middle Age, a lot of people because of their revolutionary/humanism vision of the society or their un-conformism, and restrain progress in Arts, Sciences and so on (even if they didn't stop the evolution).

Mages have maybe a better place than commoners, but it's not because of Templar. And if mages can live for themselves, they can have a work as everyone in Thedas. Not all mage want to go and explore Thedas. And about those "free" mage, you ll mabe have 1 case in a million where a mage will become an abonimation. If Templar can't deal with this, they are useless !

My solution is maybe not detailled enough for you, but i try to find something. I'm not the Maker so i need someone else to find a compromise. But with people who never want to made compromises (in short or long time), it result always conflict. Your solution give us nothing, and you always prevent something about an hypothetical fact that can maybe occur in an probably future where Templar rules the world... Your own fear about something you don't understand (magic, and humanity) result that this conflit will perdure in Thedas.

And for Meredith, i don't know if you realize about that she can do in the last straw Her madness, and the red lyrium give her a power that even a Tevinter magister can envy ! And you don't answer about the mage as your Hawke, your warden, ... What will you do with them ?

Modifié par thibaut72, 10 novembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't see how that excuses anything.

It doesn't. It just makes it more understandable why she would feel bad for Hadriana, because she probably felt that way before Hadriana killed her family.

Understanable? Not really.

Hadriana killed to satisfy her ego.

Well, gee... considering the fact that the Templars were wiped down to a mere fraction of their power and were injured -- and there were numerous Abominations, Demons, and possessed/charmed Templars in the halls -- had Wynne's barrier not been in effect Demons and Abominations would've poured out into the open countryside by sheer fact of overwhelming what remained.

Which you can't prove.
Wynnes magical super-barrier is hardly impenetrable. The demons are hardly united and Uldred was not pushing at all.
And Wynne is also part of the Circle. Her helping the defense IS part of the cirlce system.

And even if the Ferelden Circle DID fall, it would still prove NOTHING.
Templars don't have to have 100% efficency.

So hundreds of Abominations and dozens of Demons escaping doesn't prove that the Circle failed to do what they claimed it does?

If it fails once, it can fail again. The Circle system is designed in part to keep Abominations from escaping in massive numbers and when they fail to do that... then that does mean the system failed.

No, it doesn prove it. No, it's not a faliure.
And no, the abomination DIDN'T get out, so it's not a faliure.

You argue there's no real life equivalent for Mages, then go around and use a real world equivalent of criminals in our society to justify your stance of "Well, the system isn't a failure if this happened". 

Your logic is that the Mages can become dangerous warmongering nuclear weapons capable of destroying cities... but then excusing the Templars of fault -- and the system itself -- if they fail to actually keep said monstrosities contained in one area?

Bah.

One possible faliure (it didn't hapen) under specia lcircumstances is no indication of hte faliure of a system as a whole.

BAH yourself.

You know nothing about those doors. Are they warded? Reinforced?

They're iron. That's it. Thick doors made of iron that the Avvar people used, and later on the Tevinters. And then the Chantry.

If they were warded or reinforced, we would've heard about that as it's extremely pertinent to the situation. The strength of the doors dictates how long the Templars can hold out for the RoA.

Not necessarily.
So you don't know.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 novembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

@LS :
Rebellion IS an indication of failure.

For a system that's about containment? Nope.

. And about those "free" mage, you ll mabe have 1 case in a million where a mage will become an abonimation. If Templar can't deal with this, they are useless !

I'd like to see from where you derive your numbers...because it certanly isn't 1 in a million. I doubt there are a million mages in the entire TheDas and we've seen dozens of abominatiosn already.

And I also want to see how do you invision a regiment of templars to always be at the right place and time.

My solution is maybe not detailled enough for you, but i try to find something.

Trying to find a solution is commendable, but wishfull thinking is not a solution.

But with people who never want to made compromises (in short or long time), it result always conflict. Your solution give us nothing, and you always prevent something about an hypothetical fact that can maybe occur in an probably future where Templar rules the world... Your own fear about something you don't understand (magic, and humanity) result that this conflit will perdure in Thedas.

No compromises? Who said that?

But I ask you - how many compromises must one make? Let's say the cirlce makes compromies. Lets say the mages are still happy and want more. And the Circle makes more. and hte mages are still not happy. Where do you draw the line?
At some poitn you wil lreach the point at which you cna't compromise further.


Also, fear of magic is not fear of not understanding it - it's the opposite. Understanding it's power and how it works is what makes people afraid of it. And justly so.

And for Meredith, i don't know if you realize about that she can do in the last straw Her madness, and the red lyrium give her a power that even a Tevinter magister can envy !

I don't know on what where the writers trippin' when they made those statues come to life, as there is no explanation behind that at all.
I guess somone at EA just wanted a very big boss fight and it had to be done. The fight with Meredith is the most jarring thing in whole DA2.
And again.... red lyruim is an item.

And you don't answer about the mage as your Hawke, your warden, ... What will you do with them ?

I don't understand the question.

[Chozos]

A common point here I see overlooked that pertains to this discussion is that good and evil are defined by ones own perceptions.

I doubt that the Tevinter thought of themselves as evil, or that any action they took was "bad". A group of barbarian zealots were able to conquor and in most likely cases forcefully convert most of thedas to chantry doctrine. Old gods replaced by new, very similar (since so many folks want to use real world examples) to the roman empires conquest of the world.

Delving into depths of geekdom here. But the whole mage/templar argument also reeks of mutant registration that Magneto warned about in the Xmen comics (and movies for those that dont read the comics) in that templars more or less just want to brand a number into all mages, or in this case a symbol that leaves you an emotionally and mentally hollow shell where only death would be a release or more humane.

[thibaut72]

You will always have people who are happy even in lack of freedom, in misery, in slavery, and think that it can be worse elsewhere. So your solution is to never hear someone if it's only a single voice ? In the same way, never try to evolve condition of the minority because it's always a minority ?

Since the Circle exist, there are more and more restriction. With your system, in the future, mages will be kill on sight because you nourrish the fear against magic in the heart of commoner. I m not utopist, and i don't say that tomorrow, all mages can be free. This need implement and time, but this solution exist and is realist. Magic is the part of the world, you need to live with and no against it. On my numbers, you too don't know the propability of a mage that will succomb to a demon : 0.1%, 20%, less or more ? Yes, in the game, there are a lot of mage who became abomination, and all are easily killed by someone who is not templar... But in reality, how many ? 10 case in a millenium ? 100 ? If as templar, you can't deal with this, they are useless !

About Meredith, you said she use an item, an item is a tool, and magic is a tool/gift too, even if you don't choose to use it ! But with a tool, as saar-qamek, you can do even more deaths than a mage can do ! Red lyrium give you capabilities, as magic. You choose to use it for good or evil !

My last question, your warden if he is a mage, even if he is a grey warden, he is an apostate ! How will you, as templar, deal with him ? The same if Hawke is a mage, and companions of the hero (Merril, Wynne, Morrigan,...) They are mages, and with your theory, they can become abominations !!! Will you locked them ?