817 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

You will always have people who are happy even in lack of freedom, in misery, in slavery, and think that it can be worse elsewhere. So your solution is to never hear someone if it's only a single voice ? In the same way, never try to evolve condition of the minority because it's always a minority ?

And you will always have people who are unhappy no matter how much thay have.

Since the Circle exist, there are more and more restriction. With your system, in the future, mages will be kill on sight because you nourrish the fear against magic in the heart of commoner.

Actually you have to prove the above.
I fail to see how the existance of Cirlce predisposes that they must become more and more strict.

Also, fear of mages is as natural as fear of fire is.
They are dangerous. People fear dangerous stuff. 

I m not utopist, and i don't say that tomorrow, all mages can be free. This need implement and time, but this solution exist and is realist.

No, ti's not realistic.

Magic is the part of the world, you need to live with and no against it.

Circles are a form of living with it.
Oh, and that argument sucks because there's a lot of things that are part of the world. Like deadly deseases. I guess we shouldn't combat them, right?

On my numbers, you too don't know the propability of a mage that will succomb to a demon : 0.1%, 20%, less or more ? Yes, in the game, there are a lot of mage who became abomination, and all are easily killed by someone who is not templar... But in reality, how many ? 10 case in a millenium ? 100 ? If as templar, you can't deal with this, they are useless !

Aparenlty plenty cases. More than enough to warrant the Circles.

About Meredith, you said she use an item, an item is a tool, and magic is a tool/gift too, even if you don't choose to use it ! But with a tool, as saar-qamek, you can do even more deaths than a mage can do ! Red lyrium give you capabilities, as magic. You choose to use it for good or evil !

Tools can be taken away.
And no, saar-qamek is no where near as dangerous as a mage.

My last question, your warden if he is a mage, even if he is a grey warden, he is an apostate ! How will you, as templar, deal with him ? The same if Hawke is a mage, and companions of the hero (Merril, Wynne, Morrigan,...) They are mages, and with your theory, they can become abominations !!! Will you locked them ?

Grey Warden mages are outside of Templar jurisdiction and there are very few of them to boot.
But if one becomes a danger, templars would bring him down.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chozos wrote...
Delving into depths of geekdom here. But the whole mage/templar argument also reeks of mutant registration that Magneto warned about in the Xmen comics (and movies for those that dont read the comics) in that templars more or less just want to brand a number into all mages, or in this case a symbol that leaves you an emotionally and mentally hollow shell where only death would be a release or more humane.

Tempalrs want to tranquilize all mages?
Since when?

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Uh, demons are forced into mages in the Broken Circle quest in DA:O, and Irving mentions that a *willing* possession can be broken. That implies that there are unwilling possessions.

In Broken Circle, mages are tortured into accepting the demon, though the rage demon in the mage origin seems to imply that a demon can simply overpower a mage.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chozos wrote...
Delving into depths of geekdom here. But the whole mage/templar argument also reeks of mutant registration that Magneto warned about in the Xmen comics (and movies for those that dont read the comics) in that templars more or less just want to brand a number into all mages, or in this case a symbol that leaves you an emotionally and mentally hollow shell where only death would be a release or more humane.

Tempalrs want to tranquilize all mages?
Since when?

Since Sir Alrik, who had the support of absolutely nobody. Alrik is certainly not the norm for templars.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yeah, parents have been trxying to do that since the begining of time.
Society at large has been trying to do that.
Schools have been trying to do that.

Not much sucess, since we still have an endless sea of bad and stupid people.

So how exactly is your education plan different that it guarantees sucess?
Don't just tell me it will work, when every single hisotorical example proves you wrong.

I've seen plenty of proof that a belief can be so beaten into one's head to be immutable. "The Anatomy of Hate" and it's white supremists are an example.

Even the mages that are currently in the Circle. Do you really think that every single one of them would turn to blood magic and demons if they were released? You think they don't understand the potential danger of their powers?

Strawman. No one ever said theat every single mage would turn.

And wether or not they understand the danger of their powers is not really relevant.
Humans understand the danger of firearms. They understand the danger of fire. They understand the danger of speeding and driving while drunk.
Yet all of those things still happen and cause death.

First, what does "strawman"mean? Am I being insulted? Second, I appear to have misread your previous statements, as it seemed that you believed every free mage to automatically be evil.

Accidents happen, yes, but usually to idiots. Even formalized education, at least where I live, puts emphasis on the individual. Mages cannot be raised to think like that. They have to be taught to see the bigger picture, which our education systems could benefit from.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Sure it does. Look at us right now. You are so set in your thoughts that you refuse to see my side. I'm so set in mine that I refuse to accept yours. Pages of interaction and not the slightest sway in either opinion.
Teach a mage to be equally stubborn in refusing demons, refusing to put himself before others. You think it can't be done, but you and I are proof that it can.

No, it can't be done.
For one, I formed my oppionion based on evidence presented. Different evidence can change my oppinion (but not likely given that no such evidence was presented).

People change. People are influenced by the world. This is one of the basic sociological principles.

And b.t.w - I do see your side. It's just that it's so totally wrong in it's basic concepts that I'd have to be drunk to accept it.

You and I are operating on the same evidence and coming to different conclusions based on previous beliefs. The individual may change, but one's nature is set early and is all but immutable. The individual who completely changes their perspective of the world is very rare. If that perspective sees magic as a service to the world...

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

It sounds like you think that every free mage will become an abomination. The Circle doesn't protect against demons, so mages can still be contacted. They are no safer in the Circle than out, except outside the Circle they have one less reason to take the deal.

And this shows you do no understand the purpose of the Circles at all.

If a mage falls inside a Circle, there are templars around to bring it down quickly - and there are no mundanes around to butcher.

If a mage falls outside the Cirlce...death and destruction. And abominatiosn love attacking other mages and brining them into the fold.

If oyu cna't see the difference here, I cna't help you.

 "you do no understand." Sorry, I know it was just a typo, but that sounds funny.

That is one purpose, yes, but not the only one. The goal should be to empower the individual to resist demons on their own, not leaving them completely dependant on the templars. Abominations, more often than not, just attack everything indiscriminantly, so far as I've seen. Compared to mages, abominations seem much more rare than you seem to think.
I do see the difference, though I don't see what you are attempting to accomplish as "help". Help others help themselves. Don't leave them dependent on the whims of others for the duration of their existance.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She was a brainwashed psychophant who felt more sympathy towards Hadriana who moments earlier killed her father, and friends to empower her lame blood magic.

Orana's rationale for that wasn't too hard to understand. She says that while most people would like to think slaves remain oblivious to the events of their masters, they do in fact pay attention. And that she saw how Hadriana suffered ridicule and mistreatment from other Magisters, which gradually tore away at her soul.

Well if it isn't The Ethereal Writer Redux who's a paragon of lore knowledge that easily dwarfs many, and whose analytical skills leave no stones unturned.

<begrudgingly>  I can't help but think of it as a case of sympathy for the devil, but like you pointed out Hadriana is also a victim of the Imperium's never ending cycle douchemisery, and that's why it needs to be toppled. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 novembre 2012 - 05:11 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I don't believe unwilling possession is possible, but the rage demon in the mage origin suggested that he could simply(try to) overwhelm you. Which is why the Harrowing is designed as it is. Fight a weaker demon, reject a stronger one.

Bloody hell. This again.

Look, DG confirmed that demons can take over by force.
This is not up for debate.

I thought so, didn't know that we had dev comfirmation though.
However, I'd like to point out that in Broken Circle, most mages fought like hell against possession, to the point where they had to be taken, one by one, and tortured into acceptance.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Nothing of what you said changes the fact that every mage is a conduit/gateway to the fade making them all potential prey for demons regardless if they passed the Harrowing or not. When you have people like that scattered all over the country side or in densely populated areas instead pre determined locations it would take longer for the authorities to stop the destruction during the former as there is no horses in Thedas whatsoever, and the potential death toll increases in the later.

I never said that it did. But abominations result from mages dealing with demons, with fewer reasons to do so, you have fewer abominations, in addition to more templars who don't have to watch good mages and can instead focus on defending local populations from maleficar and abominations.

You fail at logistical planing here.
You'd need A LOT more templars, not less. And it would still not be enough.

Fewer reason? No, you just think that. You removed 1 reason, added a dozen others. Mages living with mundanes will have whole NEW reasons to turn abomination.

You would need more templars to watch fewer mages? Most mages resist possession, Broken Circle demonstrates that. Why waste time watching good mages when the same individuals could be hunting abominations? You wouldn't need fewer templars, but you could direct more towards protecting the common folk.

[Auintus]

General User wrote...

Auintus wrote...
One can teach a basis for decision-making. If they are taught to put the good of the whole above themselves, the problem is not only solved, but you have mages doing good deeds for the fun of it. That base for their decisions must be set early and then the problem solves itself.

Sorry, but people just don't work that way.  There simply is no method of education or training that will consistently (to any significant degree) hold up when both human nature and society at large provide far more compelling and consistent pressure to act to the contrary.

I'd direct you toward the documentary "The Anatomy of Hate" if it weren't for the fact that it is incredibly depressing. Taught from a young age, despite any external factors, these people grow up with a twisted view of the world. If the same mechanism could be applied toward a selfless mindset...

Virtually every mage will indeed turn to bloodmagic and/or demons if they find themselves in an extreme enough situation.  Outside of a controlled environment there is simply no way to predict when to to whom those extreme situations will occur.  Not to mention the fact that what would qualify as an "extreme" situation would vary enormously from mage to mage.

How often would a trained mage find themselves in an impossible situation unless faced with demons or abominations(which probably wouldn't result in wanting to become one)? A trained mage could take down bandits, slavers, any mortal that would seek to harm them. There wouldn't be a reason.

I think they understand the potential power of their powers. 

You should have a chat with Keili. The girl's messed up, but shows that mages know exactly how dangerous they are.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

You would need more templars to watch fewer mages? Most mages resist possession, Broken Circle demonstrates that. Why waste time watching good mages when the same individuals could be hunting abominations? You wouldn't need fewer templars, but you could direct more towards protecting the common folk.

1. The number of mages does not change in your system

2. Mages are spread around the world in your system. 1 templar per mage is enough in the Circle because all those 100 templars are within arms reach should an abomination happen and all the mages are in the circle too.
Abomination happens, 100 templars pounce on it.
That number isn't nowhere NEARLY enough if mages roam free (given that you need an entire squad of templars to put down most abominations)
Templar response time would be days instead of minutes, sicne templars would have to reach the mage-gone-abomination in the first place, and he would be anywhere in the world. By the time they reach it, it could kill hunderds.
Connor is an example of abomination in a town with no templars nearby (and hte cirlce is farly close, but 1 day away is an eternity). Uunless you plan to have a large squad of templars in every village, your system just won't work, and even then more deathwill follow.

Unless a squad oftemplars is permanately glued to a mage 24/7 following him everywhere. Which I believe they'd like even less than being in the Tower.


3. There is no way to tell "good" and "bad" mages apart (and no, good people don't magicly resist abominations, good people fall too), so you have to watch them all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yeah, parents have been trxying to do that since the begining of time.
Society at large has been trying to do that.
Schools have been trying to do that.

Not much sucess, since we still have an endless sea of bad and stupid people.

So how exactly is your education plan different that it guarantees sucess?
Don't just tell me it will work, when every single hisotorical example proves you wrong.

I've seen plenty of proof that a belief can be so beaten into one's head to be immutable. "The Anatomy of Hate" and it's white supremists are an example.

And I've see none whatsoever.

And you'd also have to "beat that belief into ones head" . Which is pretty much brainwashing.
There isn't a single learning or teaching method that has EVER come even close to 100% sucess rate. Hell, even 50% is a tall order.

The entire humanity is proof of that.

First, what does "strawman"mean? Am I being insulted? Second, I appear to have misread your previous statements, as it seemed that you believed every free mage to automatically be evil.

"A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3]
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position"

And wether or not they understand the danger of their powers is not really relevant.
Humans
understand the danger of firearms. They understand the danger of fire.
They understand the danger of speeding and driving while drunk.
Yet all of those things still happen and cause death.

Accidents happen, yes, but usually to idiots. Even formalized education, at least where I live, puts emphasis on the individual. Mages cannot be raised to think like that. They have to be taught to see the bigger picture, which our education systems could benefit from.

Again you handwave.
Apaprently every human being who doesn't act the way you expect it too is some kind of statistical outlier. A fluke. An idiot. You constantly dismiss irrefutable evidence that demolishes your proposition.

Name me ONE system of education that works they way you describe it. Just one.
And stick to reality, not fiction.
Unless you plan to brainwash mages - which b.t.w is also a violation of the human rights and also doesn't have a  100% sucess rate - you can't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
You and I are operating on the same evidence and coming to different conclusions based on previous beliefs. The individual may change, but one's nature is set early and is all but immutable. The individual who completely changes their perspective of the world is very rare. If that perspective sees magic as a service to the world...

Nothing is immutable.

That documantary is nice, but there are plenty of people who change views RADICLY... every day. I know a few.

That is one purpose, yes, but not the only one. The goal should be to
empower the individual to resist demons on their own, not leaving them
completely dependant on the templars. Abominations, more often than not,
just attack everything indiscriminantly, so far as I've seen. Compared
to mages, abominations seem much more rare than you seem to think.
I
do see the difference, though I don't see what you are attempting to
accomplish as "help". Help others help themselves. Don't leave them
dependent on the whims of others for the duration of their existance.

Not as rare as you seem to think and mroe dangerous than you seem to think.

And if you find a surefire way of demon-resisting, let me know.
So far only tranqulity seem to do the trick.
Methods that work are woth a million times more than wishfull thinking.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
How often would a trained mage find themselves in an impossible situation unless faced with demons or abominations(which probably wouldn't result in wanting to become one)? A trained mage could take down bandits, slavers, any mortal that would seek to harm them. There wouldn't be a reason.

There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

Hell, I can tell you a thousands things I could abuse magic for in a single day, from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.



Your problem my friend, is that your solution amounts to "lets create perfect mages that won't fall".
A perfect man does not exist, and neither does a perfect mage.
A solution that relies on perfection is by definition unattainable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 novembre 2012 - 05:53 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1. The number of mages does not change in your system

2. Mages are spread around the world in your system. 1 templar per mage is enough in the Circle because all those 100 templars are within arms reach should an abomination happen and all the mages are in the circle too.
Abomination happens, 100 templars pounce on it.
That number isn't nowhere NEARLY enough if mages roam free (given that you need an entire squad of templars to put down most abominations)
Templar response time would be days instead of minutes, sicne templars would have to reach the mage-gone-abomination in the first place, and he would be anywhere in the world. By the time they reach it, it could kill hunderds.
Connor is an example of abomination in a town with no templars nearby (and hte cirlce is farly close, but 1 day away is an eternity). Uunless you plan to have a large squad of templars in every village, your system just won't work, and even then more deathwill follow.

Unless a squad oftemplars is permanately glued to a mage 24/7 following him everywhere. Which I believe they'd like even less than being in the Tower.


3. There is no way to tell "good" and "bad" mages apart (and no, good people don't magicly resist abominations, good people fall too), so you have to watch them all.

The number of mages that need to be watched changes.

Teams of templar/mage anti-abomination groups would exist throughout Thedas and mages would be required to reside within a certain radius of such an establishment. As it is now, mage in the tower are frustrated while abominations that do exist on the outside take even longer to hunt down and kill due to most templars watching mages who have done nothing. Most abominations are born outside the Circle, that is where their attention should be focused.

A "bad" mage seeks to serve himself or views a goal as above the welfare of the common people. It's not a definition of "bad", but that's what I'm working with.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And you will always have people who are unhappy no matter how much thay have.

Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started. In democraty, have 99% of the voice is not require to build a law. You build a law when a majority think it's a need for the society. You maybe live in dictatorship ?

Actually you have to prove the above.
I fail to see how the existance of Cirlce predisposes that they must become more and more strict.
Also, fear of mages is as natural as fear of fire is.
They are dangerous. People fear dangerous stuff. 

As you, i don't need to prove it. You always think that your feeling are always the right choice, nether thinking you can be wrong. Fear the mage as you fear fire, and ? Why don't you try to stop fire ?
All event sometimes happen, one day, you can't put somethnig to 0, other than annul it ! Your protection are futile because it's the responsability of everyone which lower the result (and less the punishment).
Yes maybe it's maybe worse if every mage can go, but if you never try, you never have ! Thinking about a better word is not a waste time. Give us reforms that evolve the condition of mage and something better than the system which just collapse in Thedas.

No, ti's not realistic.

No comment ...

Circles are a form of living with it. Oh, and that argument sucks because there's a lot of things that are part of the world. Like deadly deseases. I guess we shouldn't combat them, right?

Where i said this ? Maybe you don't understand my speech. I never say that you need erase circle, just circle need to evolve. Live with mages is never a fight !

Aparenlty plenty cases. More than enough to warrant the Circles.

It's not the circle/templar that prevent more abomination, just the will of mages. And sometimes this will fail, it's human. Templar never fail and always have the right judgement ?

Tools can be taken away. And no, saar-qamek is no where near as dangerous as a mage.

How can you bilieve in this ? With the right tool, you can do something as powerful as a mage can do ! Saar-qamek can erase a city if you have enough. A rogue sniper can kill hundred of people before being noticed...

Grey Warden mages are outside of Templar jurisdiction and there are very few of them to boot.
But if one becomes a danger, templars would bring him down.

The law need to be the same for all. So you mean that mages need to follow the rules, and templar not ? Become a danger, Where will you draw the line ?
As always, you elude some parts that don't go in your way. Can you really think that it can exist a templar who can stop a mage Hawke, who can stop Flemeth ??? You need prepare your army !

When mage are in circle, they dont serve men, they serve the egotism of the templar, and they just serve as tools to make enchantment and fight against the Blight. In DA3, i think to have a neutral approch of the war, but if templar are all like you, i ll follow the mage, for sure !

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And I've see none whatsoever.

And you'd also have to "beat that belief into ones head" . Which is pretty much brainwashing.
There isn't a single learning or teaching method that has EVER come even close to 100% sucess rate. Hell, even 50% is a tall order.

The entire humanity is proof of that.

An unfortunate choice of words, perhaps. "Beating into one's head" being teaching one thing repeatedly so that it is never forgotten. Basic math is beaten into our heads simply through repetition.

"A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3]
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position"

I see. I don't believe that addressing the point that most imprisoned mages have done anything wrong is unimportant, but I suppose that is a matter of priority.

Again you handwave.
Apaprently every human being who doesn't act the way you expect it too is some kind of statistical outlier. A fluke. An idiot. You constantly dismiss irrefutable evidence that demolishes your proposition.

Name me ONE system of education that works they way you describe it. Just one.
And stick to reality, not fiction.
Unless you plan to brainwash mages - which b.t.w is also a violation of the human rights and also doesn't have a  100% sucess rate - you can't.

I handwave nothing. I suggest that humanity is capable of these things, but refuses to do them do to a misplacement of priorities. Idiots are not a statistical outlier, they comprise most of the human race. However, it doesn't have to be that way. Educated individuals make far fewer mistakes and, due to taking proper precautions, their mistakes have fewer repercussions. Look at Pharamond. Demonology done right.

Unfortunately, such a system has never been implemented towards beneficial ends so,,,Hitler's Youth. Drilled and taught of German superiority until they followed without question.
It's not brainwashing, that removes the individual. But instilling a set of values without contrary influence. Thus the Circle is a perfect starting point. Minimal external contact until the appropriate values are in place.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nothing is immutable.

That documantary is nice, but there are plenty of people who change views RADICLY... every day. I know a few.

Change the laws of physics, I dare you. Entirely beside the point, but speaking in absolutes is dangerous.

Then change my mind. Clearly they do not adhere to those beliefs very strongly. I wouldn't know.

Not as rare as you seem to think and mroe dangerous than you seem to think.

And if you find a surefire way of demon-resisting, let me know.
So far only tranqulity seem to do the trick.
Methods that work are woth a million times more than wishfull thinking.

Not true. Perhaps this is gameplay/story segregation again, but abominations were only incredibly prevelent in Kirkwall, which had special circumstances.

Pharamond proved that even tranquility is not a surefire way to avoid possession. It only ensures the absolute obedience that templars seem to thrive on.

[BlueMagitek]

^ What about the Saarebas(?) and the Qunari? They seem to have a good brainwashing program. And Thedas doesn't really have human rights. :/

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

Hell, I can tell you a thousands things I could abuse magic for in a single day, from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.



Your problem my friend, is that your solution amounts to "lets create perfect mages that won't fall".
A perfect man does not exist, and neither does a perfect mage.
A solution that relies on perfection is by definition unattainable.

And are you such a terrible person that you would let others suffer for your benefit? Would you really use such a unique gift for self-service? That is what must be avoided. The thought that mages are entitled use their powers for whatever purpose they choose. "Magic is meant to serve man." The common good of man.

I'm not relying on perfection. I'm relying on decent human beings. Individuals who know their desires and their faults and actively work to rise above them. Individuals who at least seek perfection, as unattainable as it is. There would be those who fail. Abominations will only be gone from Thedas when mages themselves are. That will not change, no matter how tightly you hold the leash.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ What about the Saarebas(?) and the Qunari? They seem to have a good brainwashing program. And Thedas doesn't really have human rights. :/

The Qunari are a little extreme, and I'm not suggesting brainwashing. But Ketojan was loyal enough, bound to the ideal, that he chose death over disobeying it. Imagine if mage would sooner burn themselves alive than allow themselves to be taken over  by a demon.

[Heimdall]

I'm glad I gave up the sport of Mage-Templar debates

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ What about the Saarebas(?) and the Qunari? They seem to have a good brainwashing program. And Thedas doesn't really have human rights. :/

The Qunari are a little extreme, and I'm not suggesting brainwashing. But Ketojan was loyal enough, bound to the ideal, that he chose death over disobeying it. Imagine if mages would sooner burn themselves alive than allow themselves to be taken over  by a demon. Would that not be preferable? Than angry mages in the Circle anyway?

[Heimdall]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ What about the Saarebas(?) and the Qunari? They seem to have a good brainwashing program. And Thedas doesn't really have human rights. :/

The Qunari are a little extreme, and I'm not suggesting brainwashing. But Ketojan was loyal enough, bound to the ideal, that he chose death over disobeying it. Imagine if mage would sooner burn themselves alive than allow themselves to be taken over  by a demon.

Ketojan would rather burn himself alive than be free.  It was the result of heavy brainwashing and being treated and trained like a dangerous animal his entire life.  I hardly think its a "little" extreme.