817 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nothing is immutable.

That documantary is nice, but there are plenty of people who change views RADICLY... every day. I know a few.

Change the laws of physics, I dare you. Entirely beside the point, but speaking in absolutes is dangerous.

Then change my mind. Clearly they do not adhere to those beliefs very strongly. I wouldn't know.

Not as rare as you seem to think and mroe dangerous than you seem to think.

And if you find a surefire way of demon-resisting, let me know.
So far only tranqulity seem to do the trick.
Methods that work are woth a million times more than wishfull thinking.

Not true. Perhaps this is gameplay/story segregation again, but abominations were only incredibly prevelent in Kirkwall, which had special circumstances.

Pharamond proved that even tranquility is not a surefire way to avoid possession. It only ensures the absolute obedience that templars seem to thrive on.

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

[Auintus]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Ketojan would rather burn himself alive than be free.  It was the result of heavy brainwashing and being treated and trained like a dangerous animal his entire life.  I hardly think its a "little" extreme.

He'd rather die than be a threat. "I want to live, by the Qun." He didn't want to die, but it's what his ideals demanded. That's dedication. We need dedication to ideals, though the ideals themselves need work.
Their treatment of mages is very extreme, but the Qun as a whole is mostly an excercise in efficiency. They take it too far, but it's not terrible. And if you note the difference in treatment between an average man and an average mage in comparison to the the difference in treatment between an average qunari and average sarrebas...

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

I don't think you read Asunder. Long story short, Pharamond was testing if touching the Fade as a tranquil would cure him. A demon possessed him in the process.

[The Elder King]

thibaut72 wrote...


Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started.

That's false. The events in Kirkwall erupted because Anders destroyed the Chantry and the templars wanted to annulle the Circle, which wasn't involved with Anders. We could argue that war between mages and templars would've started regardless, but I disagree (and Anders too, otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the Chantry).
I don't know well  Asunder, but even after the events of Kirkwall, the mages decided to not separate themselve from the Chantry at first. Only after thee events of Asunder the mages decided to separate themselves from the Chantry (and in the final vote there weren't much first enchanters, though I doubt that at the point the situation would've been different).

[Heimdall]

Auintus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Ketojan would rather burn himself alive than be free.  It was the result of heavy brainwashing and being treated and trained like a dangerous animal his entire life.  I hardly think its a "little" extreme.

He'd rather die than be a threat. "I want to live, by the Qun." He didn't want to die, but it's what his ideals demanded. That's dedication. We need dedication to ideals, though the ideals themselves need work.
Their treatment of mages is very extreme, but the Qun as a whole is mostly an excercise in efficiency. They take it too far, but it's not terrible. And if you note the difference in treatment between an average man and an average mage in comparison to the the difference in treatment between an average qunari and average sarrebas...

Dedication is one thing.  Conditioning someone to the point of slavish devotion to a doctrine that demands their death should they ever be separated from their handlers is another.

[thibaut72]

hhh89 wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...
Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started.

That's false. The events in Kirkwall erupted because Anders destroyed the Chantry and the templars wanted to annulle the Circle, which wasn't involved with Anders. We could argue that war between mages and templars would've started regardless, but I disagree (and Anders too, otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the Chantry).
I don't know well  Asunder, but even after the events of Kirkwall, the mages decided to not separate themselve from the Chantry at first. Only after thee events of Asunder the mages decided to separate themselves from the Chantry (and in the final vote there weren't much first enchanters, though I doubt that at the point the situation would've been different).

I agree that it's not totally true : I see the events in kirkwall as a catalyst of the war. And in Asunder, even if all representative wasn't here, it's a vote (as in our assembly/senate). But i think it's not the only origin of the war.
By the way, i can't follow Anders, and always prefer discussion than "terrorist act". the sission between mages and templar should happen, maybe ; but now, it's a war, and one point of disagreement is the treatment of mages.

[Medhia Nox]

Are we told somewhere the Tranquil are obedient?

They're biological logic engines... thinking machines without emotion.

Nothing about them says slave.

===

It's interesting - I wonder how many people also play Mass Effect.

They're flesh Geth. Yet - somehow - everyone argue for the Geth's "humanity" - while the Tranquil seem utterly "inhuman".

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest lotion your arguments are irrelevant you because cannot prove how many mages turn into abominations. it could be that you have more chance to be killed by lighting , darkspawn or a drunken noble then by an abomination.

Oh? How many nukes have been detonated in cities so far? I guess that makes keeping nukes guarded and away from cities silly?

Mages and especially abominations are dangerous and it happens often enough that the Circles were seen as necesary.
The lore confirmes it.
WoG confirms it.

You can refuse to accept it as much as you like, but the facts stand.

These "nukes: have AI however. so why are you trying to ****** them of?  Mages dangerous? im not convinced so give me examples. The circles where created for political reasons and not because mages where dangerous. And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about? some  era are rife with war and chaos that leaves many mages untrained.  but i dont doubt 95% of the people back then died from pague hunger or the occasional warlord.

[thibaut72]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Ketojan would rather burn himself alive than be free.  It was the result of heavy brainwashing and being treated and trained like a dangerous animal his entire life.  I hardly think its a "little" extreme.

He'd rather die than be a threat. "I want to live, by the Qun." He didn't want to die, but it's what his ideals demanded. That's dedication. We need dedication to ideals, though the ideals themselves need work.
Their treatment of mages is very extreme, but the Qun as a whole is mostly an excercise in efficiency. They take it too far, but it's not terrible. And if you note the difference in treatment between an average man and an average mage in comparison to the the difference in treatment between an average qunari and average sarrebas...

Dedication is one thing.  Conditioning someone to the point of slavish devotion to a doctrine that demands their death should they ever be separated from their handlers is another.

Qunari don't live for themselves, they live for the qun, they live for their society as a whole. When you live like this, your own feeling doesn't matter, because you always think it's for the best of the community. In our society, we can assimilate this as brainwashing, but it's not really the case. In the qun, there are some choice you can make, but only in the role the qun give to you. This is the right thing to do.
If Ketojan choose freedom, he s outside the qun, outside his role, so he cant live, cant have a reason to live. The qun is life. it's the same for all qunari.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

[thibaut72]

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about?

I think Gaider reference is in the time of Tevinter Empire, when the mages rules the world.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

The Qunari are a little extreme, and I'm not suggesting brainwashing. But Ketojan was loyal enough, bound to the ideal, that he chose death over disobeying it. Imagine if mage would sooner burn themselves alive than allow themselves to be taken over  by a demon.

A little extreme?  Ketojan was brainwashed into that.  The Circle is a much better place because it allows for the difference of opinion without copius amounts of brainwashing. :/

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nothing is immutable.

That documantary is nice, but there are plenty of people who change views RADICLY... every day. I know a few.

Change the laws of physics, I dare you. Entirely beside the point, but speaking in absolutes is dangerous.

Then change my mind. Clearly they do not adhere to those beliefs very strongly. I wouldn't know.

Not as rare as you seem to think and mroe dangerous than you seem to think.

And if you find a surefire way of demon-resisting, let me know.
So far only tranqulity seem to do the trick.
Methods that work are woth a million times more than wishfull thinking.

Not true. Perhaps this is gameplay/story segregation again, but abominations were only incredibly prevelent in Kirkwall, which had special circumstances.

Pharamond proved that even tranquility is not a surefire way to avoid possession. It only ensures the absolute obedience that templars seem to thrive on.

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

That is no longer true. The tranquil are invisible to demons in the fade , but the way pharomod worded it, the way a demon tries to posses a mage or tranquil is the same. You better hope that pride demon that possesed Pharomond didnt shared his knowledge with outhers of his ilk. Or that you need an additional mage to point out the invisible tranquil otherwise the situation will turn very badly for the templars and Thedas really quick

Modifié par DKJaigen, 10 novembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[DKJaigen]

thibaut72 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about?

I think Gaider reference is in the time of Tevinter Empire, when the mages rules the world.

Perhaps but its still a 1000 years of history. Its simply to vague to drawn any conclusions.

[The Elder King]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

I don't think you read Asunder. Long story short, Pharamond was testing if touching the Fade as a tranquil would cure him. A demon possessed him in the process.

And in touching the Fade, he was no longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

[thibaut72]

hhh89 wrote...
Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

We are foreigners !!! All political class are corrupted, here too ! By the way, if we don't think the same, we can discuss, and try to find a solution to the war, and the role of the mages (the topic : magic is meant to serve man ...)

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And in touching the Fade, he was no
longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only
connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A
Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

As far as i read, you are true, the spirit need to be lured to take possession of a Tranquil. But, as you said, a tranquil can go in the Fade through a ritual, as every mage . (Connor or the harrowing). So when people say that mage can go freely in the Fade, i m reluctant, or through their dream (the Fade = Dreamland) as everyone else (except Tranquil)
For me, Demons look for emotions, not a being., so effectively, Tranquil who don't have emotions, can't be possessed by their own. If Demon can choose, with the same emotion, between a mage and a commoner, they ll choose the mage, but if they only have the commoner, they ll take him. Everyone can be possessed !

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...
Presumptions based on a select group fo people living in another time. You, nor I, can tell the future... but we can predict that acting like a dick to other people generally makes people lash back at said people.

And I can also predict that letting mages roam free will result in death and destruction.

Kick the dog enough, and it bites back.

And a rabbid an/ord dangerous dog should be held on a leash.

The issue here is that treating every single mage like they are lucky to
be alive and kicking them for being what they are is what caused the
war. This is not opinion, it's fact.

No. Mages being unreasonable and wanting always more is what caused the war.

So mages are rapid dangerous dogs? I can't talk with you, you're making incredibly stupid leaps of logic twisting peoples words. You're almost as bad as Sylvius.

[EmperorSahlertz]

thibaut72 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

We are foreigners !!! All political class are corrupted, here too ! By the way, if we don't think the same, we can discuss, and try to find a solution to the war, and the role of the mages (the topic : magic is meant to serve man ...)

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And in touching the Fade, he was no
longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only
connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A
Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

As far as i read, you are true, the spirit need to be lured to take possession of a Tranquil. But, as you said, a tranquil can go in the Fade through a ritual, as every mage . (Connor or the harrowing). So when people say that mage can go freely in the Fade, i m reluctant, or through their dream (the Fade = Dreamland) as everyone else (except Tranquil)
For me, Demons look for emotions, not a being., so effectively, Tranquil who don't have emotions, can't be possessed by their own. If Demon can choose, with the same emotion, between a mage and a commoner, they ll choose the mage, but if they only have the commoner, they ll take him. Everyone can be possessed !

Anything can be possessed to be correct. But only the possession of a mage result in the creation of an Abomination, and abominations are much more dangerous than any demon possessed mundane, corpse or tree. Furthermore mages are unique in the fact that they can be possessed by a demon who havn't crossed the Veil and are still in the Fade.

[DKJaigen]

hhh89 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

Strange because g8 is clean when it comes to corruption safe for a few southern states have moderate corruption.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

I don't think you read Asunder. Long story short, Pharamond was testing if touching the Fade as a tranquil would cure him. A demon possessed him in the process.

And in touching the Fade, he was no longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

Read the story. Right now the demons simply do not know how to look for a tranquil in the fade. that however can change and when that happens tranquil will just as easily possesed as mages. Also pharamond didnt touch the fade  as you put it. What happend is that a demon touched his mind and that act cured pharamond . The demon that was still inside the fade was still inside the fade. But you cannot say they are cutoff because they are not. Their is also horrible potential to weaponize this knowlege

[The Elder King]

DKJaigen wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

Strange because g8 is clean when it comes to corruption safe for a few southern states have moderate corruption.

I don't get the "southern states", in reference of G8, since it's formed by 2 North-American countries, 5 European and one Asiatic. Who are the "southern states"?
Regardless, my country is one of the Europeans. The one which has the former Prime Minister who said that Obama was "tanned". And the corruption isn't moderate by any means.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

I don't think you read Asunder. Long story short, Pharamond was testing if touching the Fade as a tranquil would cure him. A demon possessed him in the process.

And in touching the Fade, he was no longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

Read the story. Right now the demons simply do not know how to look for a tranquil in the fade. that however can change and when that happens tranquil will just as easily possesed as mages. Also pharamond didnt touch the fade  as you put it. What happend is that a demon touched his mind and that act cured pharamond . The demon that was still inside the fade was still inside the fade. But you cannot say they are cutoff because they are not. Their is also horrible potential to weaponize this knowlege

And I ask you this question: Was he possessed before or after he was cured? Leading question, I know, but it serves to prove my point. Pharamond had to be cured before the Demon Possessed him. And a demon will not find a tranquil as attractive a target as a mage. The demons will always seek out the mages, since they are the flames that shines the brightest in the Fade. The Tranquil have less of an imprint on the Fade than even a mundane.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
The number of mages that need to be watched changes.

It doesn't. You think they dont' haev to be watched, but you are wrong. You have failed ot provide any insurance whatsoever.

Teams of templar/mage anti-abomination groups would exist throughout Thedas and mages would be required to reside within a certain radius of such an establishment. As it is now, mage in the tower are frustrated while abominations that do exist on the outside take even longer to hunt down and kill due to most templars watching mages who have done nothing. Most abominations are born outside the Circle, that is where their attention should be focused.

Again with immaginary stats. Please, back up your statements with facts if you have them.

And again, having a team is meaningless if the team arrives on the scene after a 100 people alreadsy died.

A "bad" mage seeks to serve himself or views a goal as above the welfare of the common people. It's not a definition of "bad", but that's what I'm working with.

And there is still no way to tell them apart (untill after the fact at least)
And you know, good mages also fall. People with good intentions and good morals also fall and make mistakes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]thibaut72 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And you will always have people who are unhappy no matter how much thay have. [/quote]

Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started. In democraty, have 99% of the voice is not require to build a law. You build a law when a majority think it's a need for the society. You maybe live in dictatorship ?[/quote]

Majority? Not really. The circles are pretty much devided between various fraternities.

You don't need a majority to cause a sh**storm.
You just need to start the s***storm and panic will do the rest.
Don't you think many indecisive mages sided with the rebelion? Dont' you think even many loyalists thought "oh crap. Now everyone will suffer because of StupidSexyanders. We're doomed. Might as well join the rebelion."


[quote]As you, i don't need to prove it.[/quote]

Yes you do. You are making an assertion and stating it as factual. That requires proof.


[quote]
You always think that your feeling are always the right choice, nether thinking you can be wrong. Fear the mage as you fear fire, and ? Why don't you try to stop fire ?[/quote]

My feelings?
Dear boy, my support of the Circles is a product of a pragmatic and calculated approach.
I'm not the one trying to solve the mage problem with "my heart" and wisfull thinking.


[quote]
All event sometimes happen, one day, you can't put somethnig to 0, other than annul it ! Your protection are futile because it's the responsability of everyone which lower the result (and less the punishment). [/quote]

Not sure if I understand you, but the protection works.
TheDas is a safer place.


[quote]
Yes maybe it's maybe worse if every mage can go, but if you never try, you never have ! Thinking about a better word is not a waste time. Give us reforms that evolve the condition of mage and something better than the system which just collapse in Thedas.[/quote]

To try something I know will go wrong? I would have to be a fool.
You have already been given a a extensive list of reasons why letting mages roam free is a bad idea that will backfire.
Reforms are not something to gamble with. Sadly the cooler heads didn't prevail inTheDas.


[quote]
Where i said this ? Maybe you don't understand my speech. I never say that you need erase circle, just circle need to evolve. Live with mages is never a fight !  [/quote]

As I said before - Circles ARE a way of TheDas dealing with mages.



[quote]
[quote]Aparenlty plenty cases. More than enough to warrant the Circles.[/quote]
It's not the circle/templar that prevent more abomination, just the will of mages. And sometimes this will fail, it's human. Templar never fail and always have the right judgement ?[/quote]

The forming of abominations? no, the templars can't stop it (unless they tranqulize everyone).
But they CAN reduce the numbers AND (most importantly) the casualites.


[quote]
How can you bilieve in this ? With the right tool, you can do something as powerful as a mage can do ! Saar-qamek can erase a city if you have enough.[/quote]

Qunari have nukes?
Nope.
Unless quanri gunpowder can bend minds and raise the dead, there is no contest.


[quote]
[quote]Grey Warden mages are outside of Templar jurisdiction and there are very few of them to boot.
But if one becomes a danger, templars would bring him down.[/quote]

The law need to be the same for all. [/quote]

In theory. It doesn't work that way in practice. Never did.

[quote]
So you mean that mages need to follow the rules, and templar not ?[/quote]

Where have I said that?


[quote]
As always, you elude some parts that don't go in your way. Can you really think that it can exist a templar who can stop a mage Hawke, who can stop Flemeth ??? You need prepare your army ! [/quote]

What do Hawke and Flementh have to do with this?


[quote]
When mage are in circle, they dont serve men, they serve the egotism of the templar, and they just serve as tools to make enchantment and fight against the Blight. In DA3, i think to have a neutral approch of the war, but if templar are all like you, i ll follow the mage, for sure !
[/quote]

Making enchantments and fighting the blight is NOT helping out humanity? News to me.

Also, I'm not a templar, so why are you calling me one?
Unless of course, you started to identify with mages so much that you are hallucinating.