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[DKJaigen]

hhh89 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

Don't know about Lotion, but the majority of my country's political class is formed by corrupted people. And my country is (for now) one of the G8 members.

Strange because g8 is clean when it comes to corruption safe for a few southern states have moderate corruption.

I don't get the "southern states", in reference of G8, since it's formed by 2 North-American countries, 5 European and one Asiatic. Who are the "southern states"?
Regardless, my country is one of the Europeans. The one which has the former Prime Minister who said that Obama was "tanned". And the corruption isn't moderate by any means.

i know what country you come from and the corruption their is pretty bad. BTW i must had some kind of brainfart because i misread the G8 for EU

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
An unfortunate choice of words, perhaps. "Beating into one's head" being teaching one thing repeatedly so that it is never forgotten. Basic math is beaten into our heads simply through repetition.

Again missing the point...

And b.t.w. - people can forget maths.

I see. I don't believe that addressing the point that most imprisoned mages have done anything wrong is unimportant, but I suppose that is a matter of priority.

In the grand scheme of things it isn't. Becasue that isn't the important question.

After all, if I were to contract a deadly, incurable desease...would you care that I "didn't do anything wrong" if I tried ot enter your house? Would you not want to see me in quarantene?

Name me ONE system of education that works they way you describe it. Just one.
And stick to reality, not fiction.
Unless you plan to brainwash mages - which b.t.w is also a violation of the human rights and also doesn't have a  100% sucess rate - you can't.

I handwave nothing. I suggest that humanity is capable of these things, but refuses to do them do to a misplacement of priorities. Idiots are not a statistical outlier, they comprise most of the human race. However, it doesn't have to be that way. Educated individuals make far fewer mistakes and, due to taking proper precautions, their mistakes have fewer repercussions. Look at Pharamond. Demonology done right.

Soo...in other words, humanity has never done something like that despite all of it attempts? And despite it being more technologicly and socialyl advanced? Socilogists consider such a thing impossible.
And yet you think the people in medieval Thedas can do it?

Then you say idiots compromise most of the humanrace (and by extension, most mages are idiots).

I was wrong. You are not handwawing.
You are living in denial (or fantasy).

Unfortunately, such a system has never been implemented towards beneficial ends so,,,Hitler's Youth. Drilled and taught of German superiority until they followed without question.
It's not brainwashing, that removes the individual. But instilling a set of values without contrary influence. Thus the Circle is a perfect starting point. Minimal external contact until the appropriate values are in place.

After which those values are eroded because they aren't unchangable.
After all, if humans are a blank slate, then that slate can be overwritten, re-written and erased.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 novembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nothing is immutable.

That documantary is nice, but there are plenty of people who change views RADICLY... every day. I know a few.

Change the laws of physics, I dare you. Entirely beside the point, but speaking in absolutes is dangerous.

Then change my mind. Clearly they do not adhere to those beliefs very strongly. I wouldn't know.

That in itself is an absolute.

And laws of physics and psychology are not the same.

Not true. Perhaps this is gameplay/story segregation again, but abominations were only incredibly prevelent in Kirkwall, which had special circumstances.

Really? Ferelden itself had a dozen at least. Within a year.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

Hell, I can tell you a thousands things I could abuse magic for in a single day, from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.

Your problem my friend, is that your solution amounts to "lets create perfect mages that won't fall".
A perfect man does not exist, and neither does a perfect mage.
A solution that relies on perfection is by definition unattainable.

And are you such a terrible person that you would let others suffer for your benefit? Would you really use such a unique gift for self-service? That is what must be avoided. The thought that mages are entitled use their powers for whatever purpose they choose. "Magic is meant to serve man." The common good of man.

I might.
I'm not so arrogant to think myself uncorruptable - especially since I never had a taste of such power.
I'm just a man. And thinking myself better is the first step towards faliure.
Pride.
The people who feel most confident with power are the ones that should be the last to recieve it.
The poepel who think themselves the purest, the most uncorruptable are those that become the most corrupted.

I'm not relying on perfection. I'm relying on decent human beings. Individuals who know their desires and their faults and actively work to rise above them. Individuals who at least seek perfection, as unattainable as it is. There would be those who fail. Abominations will only be gone from Thedas when mages themselves are. That will not change, no matter how tightly you hold the leash.

Then you are offering no solution at all.
There is no guarantee the mages you train will be good and great and wonderfull. You have no real system in place to ensure it. No real system to protect the people.

I have a feeling that you don't have children.
Tell you what - once you raise a child, and have it become exactly as you wanted it to be, call me up.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A tranquil cannot be possessed the same way as a mage can. A Tranquil is for all intends and purposes like an object when it comes to demon possessions. So in the same way that a tree, stone or even table may be possessed by a demon, the same can happen to a Tranquil. It "simply" requires the demon to have already been brought across the Veil. For a mage to be possessed, the demon can still be in the Fade and take over the mage.

I don't think you read Asunder. Long story short, Pharamond was testing if touching the Fade as a tranquil would cure him. A demon possessed him in the process.

And in touching the Fade, he was no longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

Read the story. Right now the demons simply do not know how to look for a tranquil in the fade. that however can change and when that happens tranquil will just as easily possesed as mages. Also pharamond didnt touch the fade  as you put it. What happend is that a demon touched his mind and that act cured pharamond . The demon that was still inside the fade was still inside the fade. But you cannot say they are cutoff because they are not. Their is also horrible potential to weaponize this knowlege

And I ask you this question: Was he possessed before or after he was cured? Leading question, I know, but it serves to prove my point. Pharamond had to be cured before the Demon Possessed him. And a demon will not find a tranquil as attractive a target as a mage. The demons will always seek out the mages, since they are the flames that shines the brightest in the Fade. The Tranquil have less of an imprint on the Fade than even a mundane.

Pharamond said invisible.  They do have a connection to the fade its simply not visible to the demons. And even if a demon finds a tranquil it is simply not appealing to a demon your correct in that. But if a demon does know what he is searching for then he will try to cure a tranquil and then posses him.
because a cured tranquil is in an emotional shock and cannot fend this demon of. The biggest problem in my opinion is that the tranquil rite is now contaminated. If more demons know of this new knowledge it will become useless and dangerous to continue.

[Auintus]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Dedication is one thing.  Conditioning someone to the point of slavish devotion to a doctrine that demands their death should they ever be separated from their handlers is another.

Right. The dedication is a good thing, but the ideals need to change.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...
Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started.

That's false. The events in Kirkwall erupted because Anders destroyed the Chantry and the templars wanted to annulle the Circle, which wasn't involved with Anders. We could argue that war between mages and templars would've started regardless, but I disagree (and Anders too, otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the Chantry).
I don't know well  Asunder, but even after the events of Kirkwall, the mages decided to not separate themselve from the Chantry at first. Only after thee events of Asunder the mages decided to separate themselves from the Chantry (and in the final vote there weren't much first enchanters, though I doubt that at the point the situation would've been different).

Actually, IIRC, the vote to separate barely passed.
Literally 1 vote decided. So the cirlce is basicly split in half.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And in touching the Fade, he was no longer a Tranquil. A Tranquil is cut off from the Fade, and can only connect with it through other means, such as the ritual he created. A Tranquil can on its own not randomly become possessed. A mage can.

We're never told when that happens for certain. EDIT: Did some looking. Gaider confirmed that Tranquil are completely incapable of being possessed. You were right.
"Randomly" is probably inaccurate, but I see your point. Demons are incapable of actively contacting tranquil.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 novembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about? some  era are rife with war and chaos that leaves many mages untrained.  but i dont doubt 95% of the people back then died from pague hunger or the occasional warlord.

Gaiders response was to my question that was SPECIFICLY about life before the Circles were established.

And before the Circle, TheDas wasn't an apocalypstic wastland with roaming barbarians. It has kingdoms and everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There's always a reason to abuse power. And the more you can use that power for, the more easily you can hide it, the more tempting it is.

The leaders of your country must be really a bunch of corrupt bastards then.

Yup.
If you only knew...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...

So mages are rapid dangerous dogs? I can't talk with you, you're making incredibly stupid leaps of logic twisting peoples words. You're almost as bad as Sylvius.

Hey, you supplied the metaphors and comparisons.

I work with what I'm given.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Strange because g8 is clean when it comes to corruption safe for a few southern states have moderate corruption.

According to whom?
A commtie/agency funded and run by them?

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
The number of mages that need to be watched changes.

It doesn't. You think they dont' haev to be watched, but you are wrong. You have failed ot provide any insurance whatsoever.

I think you misunderstand. I hope you misunderstand, otherwise you're being hard-headed.
The number of mages in the Circle would amount to apprentices and teachers. They would be watched with the same vigil that we have seen in the games. Mages outside the Circle would have proven themselves trustworthy enough to not need a cage. They would be free to participate in society without templars standing over their shoulders. They would not need to be watched with the same vigil.

Again with immaginary stats. Please, back up your statements with facts if you have them.

And again, having a team is meaningless if the team arrives on the scene after a 100 people alreadsy died.

The only "facts" I have is your very reasonable statement that any abomination born in the Circle would be slaughtered immediately and the fact that the Rite of Annulment is considered rare. That makes a fairly good case for the statement that abominations within Circles are rather infrequent. No actual numbers.
Do all the abominations outside the Circle count for nothing? If each were capable of destroying a town, Fereldan would be barren. Not every attrocity can be prevented and treating people as guilty just because they are capable of being a threat has already been covered.
EDIT: Okay, research here. Codex Entry: Abomination. "Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon." So...yeah.

And there is still no way to tell them apart (untill after the fact at least)
And you know, good mages also fall. People with good intentions and good morals also fall and make mistakes.

If taught to put others above themselves, they will behave as such.
Yes, but rarely. And they will be put down.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The Qunari are a little extreme, and I'm not suggesting brainwashing. But Ketojan was loyal enough, bound to the ideal, that he chose death over disobeying it. Imagine if mage would sooner burn themselves alive than allow themselves to be taken over  by a demon.

A little extreme?  Ketojan was brainwashed into that.  The Circle is a much better place because it allows for the difference of opinion without copius amounts of brainwashing. :/

The Qun as a whole is a little extreme. Their treatment of mages is going way too far.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again missing the point...

And b.t.w. - people can forget maths.

Ever read Harry Potter? Knowing you forgot something doesn't help you remember it. The same thing applies to missing a point. I actively try to understand. If I mess up, I need some help.
Really? The basic stuff, addition, multiplication? I..wow...I think I'm gonna cry.

In the grand scheme of things it isn't. Becasue that isn't the important question.

After all, if I were to contract a deadly, incurable desease...would you care that I "didn't do anything wrong" if I tried ot enter your house? Would you not want to see me in quarantene?

I'm too paranoid to let you into my house at all, but for the sake of arguement, how contagious is it?

Soo...in other words, humanity has never done something like that despite all of it attempts? And despite it being more technologicly and socialyl advanced? Socilogists consider such a thing impossible.
And yet you think the people in medieval Thedas can do it?

Then you say idiots compromise most of the humanrace (and by extension, most mages are idiots).

I was wrong. You are not handwawing.
You are living in denial (or fantasy).

People always try to say that your individuality is important. That causes them to focus more on themselves than on the world. That is the problem.

If only because they are raised as such. Mages in the Circle are taught the threat of their powers, yet Jowan still screwed up horrifically. Mistakes happen, but we must eliminate the majority of them. Education can accomplish that much, at least.

Sad, isn't it? I try. I try very hard, but I have to believe that there is good in people. That the world is merely an error in execution, not in human nature. Otherwise, we haven't a chance in the world.

After which those values are eroded because they aren't unchangable.
After all, if humans are a blank slate, then that slate can be overwritten, re-written and erased.

Once a hand is carved from a piece of marble, can it be changed to a foot? It begins blank, it can be written on again, but not overwritten, not erased. What was there first will always be there.

[TEWR]

No, it doesn prove it. No, it's not a faliure.
And no, the abomination DIDN'T get out, so it's not a faliure.

We were speaking hypothetically if Wynne wasn't there, remember?

And yes, if Wynne wasn't there the Abominations would've gotten out. And it would've been a failure of the system. As I said before, whether the system can recover and learn from that failure depends on what transpires afterwards. But it does fail if it happens. 

So the extent of how much it failed depends. How many people died because the Templars failed to contain the situation? What will they do going forward to make sure it doesn't happen again? And so on and so forth.

It's a failure. How much a person wants to label it a failure of the system will vary, but it's definitely a failure if the Templars are all killed, Wynne's barrier isn't up, and the Abominations/Demons pour out into the countryside.

Wynne's barrier was the only thing keeping the Templars from being slaughtered in their weakened/injured state.

One possible faliure (it didn't hapen) under specia lcircumstances is no indication of hte faliure of a system as a whole.

BAH yourself.

Yes it is.

Not necessarily.
So you don't know.

Right... because with the threat of Abominations and Demons on the other side, it's not important to know the strength of the doors in the event that the Warden does fail in taking down all of these creatures.

Sorry, but it is pertinent.

The only doors in the Circle known to be warded are the ones in the basement/repository area, where they negate the workings of magic in the immediate vicinity.

If the iron doors were warded/reinforced, we would've been told. In addition, they're doors that are only kept shut because they're barred. No magic, no runes, just two iron doors with something keeping them from opening.

You can make a case for them possibly being reinforced after the events of Broken Circle to help ensure it doesn't happen again, but there's nothing to indicate these doors had the same thing as the basement one.

Statues in DAII, as there is no explanation behind that at all.

They're Golems. The DAII Collector's Edition Guide labels them as makeshift Golems, albeit ones who have either bypassed the need for a soul or have gained a soul by the power of the lyrium idol.

saar-qamek is no where near as dangerous as a mage.

I disagree. It kills, turns people against one another, and only Kossith are immune to its effects. Add into that how it can't be easily stopped -- save for PC/Party immunity -- and it's definitely a danger on par with a Mage.

But if one becomes a danger, templars would bring him down.

Only if the Wardens agree to it, as the Wardens are immune from Chantry authority. As we see in DAO:A, the Chantry has begun to overstep its bounds and tried to apprehend Anders because they believe the Chantry has more authority over the Grey Wardens then the Wardens or the King do -- which is not true.

Since Sir Alrik, who had the support of absolutely nobody. Alrik is certainly not the norm for templars.

Incorrect. Not only did Alrik have the help of a couple dozen Templars -- seen in Tranquility and Dissent -- but he also had either the tacit approval of Meredith or she did approve it, but just not officially so as to keep up appearances.

Either way, Alrik was getting support by Meredith. Either Meredith was too incompetent to notice how more and more Tranquil were appearing -- which requires both the FE and KC to sign off on it, per DAO -- or she told him to go through with it in an unofficial means.

The Hierophant wrote...

Well if it isn't The Ethereal Writer Redux who's a paragon of lore knowledge that easily dwarfs many, and whose analytical skills leave no stones unturned.

I lol'd.

I can't help but think of it as a case of sympathy for the devil, but like you pointed out Hadriana is also a victim of the Imperium's never ending cycle douchemisery, and that's why it needs to be toppled.

Indeed. Though its arcane libraries are worth preserving, as they hold knowledge that should be looked at. They're filled with both good and bad things, but as Wynne states Minrathous has the most extensive collection of all arcane knowledge in Thedas.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And again, having a team is meaningless if the team arrives on the scene after a 100 people alreadsy died.

So says the person who also defends the current system as is if the Templars ended up failing to contain a situation such as we see in Broken Circle.

"Any new system will fail! But this current one doesn't ever fail and can never fail!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 novembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Change the laws of physics, I dare you. Entirely beside the point, but speaking in absolutes is dangerous.

Then change my mind. Clearly they do not adhere to those beliefs very strongly. I wouldn't know.

That in itself is an absolute.

And laws of physics and psychology are not the same.

Nonsense. Absolutes are always and never, dangerous can vary in degree.
True, but that statement is merely proof that some things are immutable.

Not true. Perhaps this is gameplay/story segregation again, but abominations were only incredibly prevelent in Kirkwall, which had special circumstances.

Really? Ferelden itself had a dozen at least. Within a year.

I referenced the abomination codex earlier and would like to add that abominations often seek to make more. The originals are rare and if, maybe, the templars were doing something useful like hunting them, than the situation wouldn't spread beyond the odd abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
I think you misunderstand. I hope you misunderstand, otherwise you're being hard-headed.
The number of mages in the Circle would amount to apprentices and teachers. They would be watched with the same vigil that we have seen in the games. Mages outside the Circle would have proven themselves trustworthy enough to not need a cage. They would be free to participate in society without templars standing over their shoulders. They would not need to be watched with the same vigil.

What part of "this cannot and will not work" escapes you?
I understand perfectly what you are saying. It's just that it doesn't work.

Again with immaginary stats. Please, back up your statements with facts if you have them.

And again, having a team is meaningless if the team arrives on the scene after a 100 people alreadsy died.

The only "facts" I have is your very reasonable statement that any abomination born in the Circle would be slaughtered immediately and the fact that the Rite of Annulment is considered rare. That makes a fairly good case for the statement that abominations within Circles are rather infrequent. No actual numbers.

False. That makes is clear that large outbreaks are rare.

There wasn't one abomination in the Ferelden Cicle. There were dozens.
One, two, three abominations - the templars can handle that. Greagoir tells you that much himself. They weren't prepared for this many.
It is after all what happenes when someone fails the Harrowing  - 1 abomination vs several tempalrs and mages.

RoA is called when things go REALLY wrong. Not when a single apprentice turns.

Do all the abominations outside the Circle count for nothing? If each were capable of destroying a town, Fereldan would be barren. Not every attrocity can be prevented and treating people as guilty just because they are capable of being a threat has already been covered.

Each is capable of destroying a town. Fact.

Ferelden would be barren? No. The coutnry is large and humanity is ressilient.
There are coutnries in areas where natural disasters are common. People still live and have been living and thriving there despite them.

EDIT: Okay, research here. Codex Entry: Abomination. "Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon." So...yeah.

How many is "rare" in that context?
Also notice the THANKFULLY part.

And there is still no way to tell them apart (untill after the fact at least)
And you know, good mages also fall. People with good intentions and good morals also fall and make mistakes.

If taught to put others above themselves, they will behave as such.
Yes, but rarely. And they will be put down.

You and your dreams again.

You cannot tell them apart. Your entire reasoning is "I'll teach them to be good and they will be". Which you cna neither guranatee, nor confirm.

I'm sorry, but the system your prose really isnt' better in any way nor is is actually possible.
It would require more resources, it would beless safe, it would be less efficient.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about? some  era are rife with war and chaos that leaves many mages untrained.  but i dont doubt 95% of the people back then died from pague hunger or the occasional warlord.

Gaiders response was to my question that was SPECIFICLY about life before the Circles were established.

And before the Circle, TheDas wasn't an apocalypstic wastland with roaming barbarians. It has kingdoms and everything.

100 years before drakon came to power Thedas was recovering from centuries of blight , an exalted march and a collapsed tevinter empire. Thedas most likely was an apocalyptic wasteland with roaming barbarians.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

And are you such a terrible person that you would let others suffer for your benefit? Would you really use such a unique gift for self-service? That is what must be avoided. The thought that mages are entitled use their powers for whatever purpose they choose. "Magic is meant to serve man." The common good of man.

I might.
I'm not so arrogant to think myself uncorruptable - especially since I never had a taste of such power.
I'm just a man. And thinking myself better is the first step towards faliure.
Pride.
The people who feel most confident with power are the ones that should be the last to recieve it.
The poepel who think themselves the purest, the most uncorruptable are those that become the most corrupted.

Definately not letting you in my house now.
Understanding oneself is not arrogance.
Pride is letting one think oneself superior, beyond corruption. But by treating every situation as a chance to fall and doing your damnest not to...
"Any man can stand against adversity. If you want to test someone's character, give them power." Just because someone trusts themselves, that does not mean they will be the first to fall.

Then you are offering no solution at all.
There is no guarantee the mages you train will be good and great and wonderfull. You have no real system in place to ensure it. No real system to protect the people.

I have a feeling that you don't have children.
Tell you what - once you raise a child, and have it become exactly as you wanted it to be, call me up.

I'm not saying it would be wonderful. I'm saying it would be no worse than it was for the common man, and mages would have nothing unique to complain about. Protecting the people is a team of templars and mages to stop abomination incidents before they spread. Instead of acting as wardens for good mages, they can protect the general populace.
So I can't understand the value of life without a child? Allow me to point out that the world is bigger than you and your kid. If your death would save ten thousand lives, would you do it? Would you even be capable of seeing beyond your fatherless child to to bigger picture? That is what a mage would be trained to see. How the world could be better for their death, should the situation arise.

The bit about your kid was probably uncalled for, but you brought it into the equation. I won't ever be in your shoes, but that doesn't mean I am incapable of understanding. Sorry if I caused any offense, but I can't figure out how to reword it, so I'll just leave it as is.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
I think you misunderstand. I hope you misunderstand, otherwise you're being hard-headed.
The number of mages in the Circle would amount to apprentices and teachers. They would be watched with the same vigil that we have seen in the games. Mages outside the Circle would have proven themselves trustworthy enough to not need a cage. They would be free to participate in society without templars standing over their shoulders. They would not need to be watched with the same vigil.

What part of "this cannot and will not work" escapes you?
I understand perfectly what you are saying. It's just that it doesn't work.

The "why" bit. I don't actually recall you mentioning that.

Each is capable of destroying a town. Fact.

Ferelden would be barren? No. The coutnry is large and humanity is ressilient.
There are countries in areas where natural disasters are common. People still live and have been living and thriving there despite them.

Source? Not a challenge, just a request.
An abomination isn't like an earthquake. That just hits and leaves everyone to rebuild. An abomination razes a city to the ground and slaughters the populace. You can't rebuild if everyone's dead.

EDIT: Okay, research here. Codex Entry: Abomination. "Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon." So...yeah.

How many is "rare" in that context?
Also notice the THANKFULLY part.

I don't know. Enough to count as rare to someone documenting a phenomena that spans all civilized countries?
I did notice that, thank you. I'm not saying abominations are a picnic, just that they aren't incredibly common.

You and your dreams again.

You cannot tell them apart. Your entire reasoning is "I'll teach them to be good and they will be". Which you cna neither guranatee, nor confirm.

I'm sorry, but the system your prose really isnt' better in any way nor is is actually possible.
It would require more resources, it would beless safe, it would be less efficient.

Things taught early imbed heavily in the mind. The conscious is always there. Mages in the Circles are taught to be good, and, to a great extent, are. The few that go bad would be no greater than currently.

[thibaut72]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Majority? Not really. The circles are pretty much devided between various fraternities.
You don't need a majority to cause a sh**storm.
You just need to start the s***storm and panic will do the rest.
Don't you think many indecisive mages sided with the rebelion? Dont' you think even many loyalists thought "oh crap. Now everyone will suffer because of StupidSexyanders. We're doomed. Might as well join the rebelion."[/quote]

You ll have templar with the mages, mages with the Chantry, and neutral people. But a majority is a majority. If you don't agree with democratic system, you can go and live on a desert island, or any other country with less human right to see if it's better.
Perfect system don't exist; you always have people for, and people against reform. In Thedas, as a Maker follower, i need find a solution to this actual problem, and i cant raisonably think that circle as they are now, can remain. After you can do what you want with your consciousness.
When i killed Anders, i assumed my act, even if i was mage, side with the templar or the mages. I don't blame mages or templars, they are both responsable of the events in Thedas, but now you need to assume their act, and try to find something better for the society.
In DA3, If i follow the Maker, i ll try to follow his teaching, i ll try to find a solution for mages (because they want something new) and templar, always try to protect the commoner, and some other things which depend of the background.

[quote]My feelings?
Dear boy, my support of the Circles is a product of a pragmatic and calculated approach.
I'm not the one trying to solve the mage problem with "my heart" and wisfull thinking.[/quote]

Humanity is governed by "heart" ("heart" mean feeling, like need of power, economic profit, hate, fear, misunderstanding ...) and wishfull thinking. It's because of "heart" that there are so many wars.
[quote]Not sure if I understand you, but the protection works.
TheDas is a safer place.[/quote]

Qunari, dragons, tevinter, marauders, darkspawns,... a very safe place !
[quote]To try something I know will go wrong? I would have to be a fool. You have already been given a a extensive list of reasons why letting mages roam free is a bad idea that will backfire. Reforms are not something to gamble with. Sadly the cooler heads didn't prevail inTheDas.[/quote]

You can see the future ? In Earth history, many reform came from an idea that can go wrong. Sometimes happen ! But you can't know if you don't try and take the time to do it ! But you are right when you said that reforms are not games...
[quote] As I said before - Circles ARE a way of TheDas dealing with mages.[/quote]

A way, so not the only single way !
[quote]Qunari have nukes? Nope.
Unless quanri gunpowder can bend minds and raise the dead, there is no contest.[/quote]

We don't know all of their arsenal... Try to be a little more logic : i told you that saar-qamek can erase a city, don't change to another theme like raise the dead or bend mind, the effect are not the same !
And to raise the dead, they have their saarebas (even if it's forbidden by the qun:P)
[quote][quote]So you mean that mages need to follow the rules, and templar not ?[/quote]Where have I said that?[/quote]

Most of mages follow the Maker's speech and the Chant of Light. Most of templar don't : circle are not a prerogative of the Maker, as the rite of tranquility, as ...
[quote]What do Hawke and Flementh have to do with this? [/quote]

Hawke can be a mage, and Flemeth is an apostate, will you have the courage to send them both in the circle ?
[quote]Also, I'm not a templar, so why are you calling me one?
Unless of course, you started to identify with mages so much that you are hallucinating.[/quote]

You speak like Sir Alrik, Maker bless him
[quote]Actually, IIRC, the vote to separate barely passed.
Literally 1 vote decided. So the cirlce is basicly split in half.[/quote]


1 vote more is a majority

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

I think you misunderstand. I hope you misunderstand, otherwise you're being hard-headed.
The number of mages in the Circle would amount to apprentices and teachers. They would be watched with the same vigil that we have seen in the games. Mages outside the Circle would have proven themselves trustworthy enough to not need a cage. They would be free to participate in society without templars standing over their shoulders. They would not need to be watched with the same vigil.

So... your proposal for the solution is exactly what we have presented in game?

Wynne is allowed, right after an abomination attack, (as a Senior Enchanter) to go on an adventure with the Grey Wardens.  It is implied that she does this on a fairly regular basis through dialog.  She's also out and about in Awakening.

There was also Shale's former owner, who was living without Templars (though, given the demon summoning, they probably should have watched him). 

Auintus wrote...

The Qun as a whole is a little extreme. Their treatment of mages is going way too far.

I agree, and I really dislike that you want to implement a similar system for all mages.

[thibaut72]

DKJaigen wrote...

100 years before drakon came to power Thedas was recovering from centuries of blight , an exalted march and a collapsed tevinter empire. Thedas most likely was an apocalyptic wasteland with roaming barbarians.

That means what i think ? S... The mages are not at the origin of this apocalysm !

Modifié par thibaut72, 10 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...
So... your proposal for the solution is exactly what we have presented in game?

Wynne is allowed, right after an abomination attack, (as a Senior Enchanter) to go on an adventure with the Grey Wardens.  It is implied that she does this on a fairly regular basis through dialog.  She's also out and about in Awakening.

There was also Shale's former owner, who was living without Templars (though, given the demon summoning, they probably should have watched him). 


I agree, and I really dislike that you want to implement a similar system for all mages.

How would it be implementing a similar system? They would be taught to see the bigger picture before themselves, taught to never forget the threat they pose, and allowed to walk free and help while these lessons keep them from harm. That is vastly different from the shackling of mages under the Qun and confining of mages under the Circle.
Wynne is an exception. She has a great deal of freedom that most mages don't, especially after the Blight. Most mages are consigned to the Circle. Ines seems to suggest that senior enchanters have a scope of freedom greater than many, but they, so far, seem old enough to know the person whose dust you're walking in, implying a life of submission to imprisonment and getting off on good behavior.
Ines, also, was an herbalist, something the templars wouldn't have considered much a risk.
Wilhelm, if you read Stolen Throne, had a great deal of influence with King Maric. I doubt that had nothing to do with his freedom.