817 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

thibaut72 wrote...

Lotion Sorronar wrote...
Actually, IIRC, the vote to separate barely passed.
Literally 1 vote decided. So the cirlce is basicly split in half.

1 vote more is a majority

Actually, The fraternities voted. Aquatarians(hope I spelled that right) are the largest and Rhys's vote was cast for them all. Unless you mean to say that 1 out of 3 votes decided, because that is usually how it goes.
I don't doubt that Circle apologests won't join the templars, but that's far from half.

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...
Yes, but in the group of mage, there is a majority that think circle are not good ! This is why the templar/mage war started.

That's false. The events in Kirkwall erupted because Anders destroyed the Chantry and the templars wanted to annulle the Circle, which wasn't involved with Anders. We could argue that war between mages and templars would've started regardless, but I disagree (and Anders too, otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the Chantry).
I don't know well  Asunder, but even after the events of Kirkwall, the mages decided to not separate themselve from the Chantry at first. Only after thee events of Asunder the mages decided to separate themselves from the Chantry (and in the final vote there weren't much first enchanters, though I doubt that at the point the situation would've been different).

Actually, IIRC, the vote to separate barely passed.
Literally 1 vote decided. So the cirlce is basicly split in half.

I never said that the separatist would have a large majority. Only that the result of the vote would probably be the same. With the mages divided in two factions. I don't know if it really an half-half situation, but there surely are a lot of mages who didn't want to separate from the Chantry. The division in the mages, and how the templars/seekers will act after revoking the Nevarran Accord will be truly interesting.

[The Elder King]

DKJaigen wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Strange because g8 is clean when it comes to corruption safe for a few southern states have moderate corruption.

I don't get the "southern states", in reference of G8, since it's formed by 2 North-American countries, 5 European and one Asiatic. Who are the "southern states"?
Regardless, my country is one of the Europeans. The one which has the former Prime Minister who said that Obama was "tanned". And the corruption isn't moderate by any means.

i know what country you come from and the corruption their is pretty bad. BTW i must had some kind of brainfart because i misread the G8 for EU

I understand what you meant with "southern states". Mine is there as well as other two.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 novembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

How would it be implementing a similar system? They would be taught to see the bigger picture before themselves, taught to never forget the threat they pose, and allowed to walk free and help while these lessons keep them from harm. That is vastly different from the shackling of mages under the Qun and confining of mages under the Circle.
Wynne is an exception. She has a great deal of freedom that most mages don't, especially after the Blight. Most mages are consigned to the Circle. Ines seems to suggest that senior enchanters have a scope of freedom greater than many, but they, so far, seem old enough to know the person whose dust you're walking in, implying a life of submission to imprisonment and getting off on good behavior.
Ines, also, was an herbalist, something the templars wouldn't have considered much a risk.
Wilhelm, if you read Stolen Throne, had a great deal of influence with King Maric. I doubt that had nothing to do with his freedom.

Indoctrinating people is wrong. :/

So now she's just an exception?  Other mages were allowed out against the Blight, including Uldred, who was a Senior Enchanter for mage freedom.   And this system seems to be what you desire.  A Senior Enchanter has proven that they are trustworthy, after a number of years of participating in the Circle, and allowed out with permission of the First Enchanter.  Though, going by Uldred, perhaps this should be restricted. :/

I was aware of that.  I'm sure it did.  

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Indoctrinating people is wrong. :/

So now she's just an exception?  Other mages were allowed out against the Blight, including Uldred, who was a Senior Enchanter for mage freedom.   And this system seems to be what you desire.  A Senior Enchanter has proven that they are trustworthy, after a number of years of participating in the Circle, and allowed out with permission of the First Enchanter.  Though, going by Uldred, perhaps this should be restricted. :/

I was aware of that.  I'm sure it did.  

It can serve it's purposes, but as a rule of thumb, you are correct.

Senior enchanter is a step above your average mage who has passed their Harrowing. Look under the Heirarchy on the Circle of Magi page.
Few mages seem to be allowed to leave the Circle. How many have we seen that are not apostate? I believe that mages can be requisitioned(if that is the appropirate term) from the Circle in the case of war. Beyond that, most descriptions of Circles suggest a very closed atmosphere. The codex entry on the Circles doesn't indicate any degree of freedom for Harrowed mages, as they would in my system.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

It can serve it's purposes, but as a rule of thumb, you are correct.

Senior enchanter is a step above your average mage who has passed their Harrowing. Look under the Heirarchy on the Circle of Magi page.
Few mages seem to be allowed to leave the Circle. How many have we seen that are not apostate? I believe that mages can be requisitioned(if that is the appropirate term) from the Circle in the case of war. Beyond that, most descriptions of Circles suggest a very closed atmosphere. The codex entry on the Circles doesn't indicate any degree of freedom for Harrowed mages, as they would in my system.

Well, we see those two Circle mages at the docks, talking about how the universe of Dragon Age is a game.

And the codex entry isn't always correct, because, you know, Wynne is allowed to leave. So we know that it isn't completely correct.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Are we told somewhere the Tranquil are obedient?

Yes, many times.

Sir Alrik: Once you're tranquil, you'll do anything I say.

They're biological logic engines... thinking machines without emotion.

Like that's a good thing?

Emotions inform you, and are an important part of an individual's decision-making process. They're a chemical, physiological reaction to outside stimulus. Without emotions, you are incapable of making proper judgement.

If someone is miserable in their job and is considering quitting, even though they make a lot of money, I suppose you'd tell them to disregard their feelings and make the decision "logically"?

Nothing about them says slave.

Except everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
Are we told somewhere the Tranquil are obedient?

Yes, many times.

Sir Alrik: Once you're tranquil, you'll do anything I say.

Traquil aren't magicly obidient.
They are meatly logic machines - they obey because it makes perfect logical sense to obey (depending on the order).

Emotions inform you, and are an important part of an individual's decision-making process. They're a chemical, physiological reaction to outside stimulus. Without emotions, you are incapable of making proper judgement.

Emotions can just as much cloud ones judgment.

You are very much capable of making proper judgment without emotions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about? some  era are rife with war and chaos that leaves many mages untrained.  but i dont doubt 95% of the people back then died from pague hunger or the occasional warlord.

Gaiders response was to my question that was SPECIFICLY about life before the Circles were established.

And before the Circle, TheDas wasn't an apocalypstic wastland with roaming barbarians. It has kingdoms and everything.

100 years before drakon came to power Thedas was recovering from centuries of blight , an exalted march and a collapsed tevinter empire. Thedas most likely was an apocalyptic wasteland with roaming barbarians.

Except that is not what DG said.
You are free of course to try and twist evertying to suit your agenda.

But it was a specific answer to a speicifc question in a specific debate (how did the Circles change TheDas).
So either you are claiming DG can't read or his was anwering a question no one asked and deliberately confusing everyone.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

And are you such a terrible person that you would let others suffer for your benefit? Would you really use such a unique gift for self-service? That is what must be avoided. The thought that mages are entitled use their powers for whatever purpose they choose. "Magic is meant to serve man." The common good of man.

I might.
I'm not so arrogant to think myself uncorruptable - especially since I never had a taste of such power.
I'm just a man. And thinking myself better is the first step towards faliure.
Pride.
The people who feel most confident with power are the ones that should be the last to recieve it.
The poeple who think themselves the purest, the most uncorruptable are those that become the most corrupted.

Definately not letting you in my house now.
Understanding oneself is not arrogance.
Pride is letting one think oneself superior, beyond corruption. But by treating every situation as a chance to fall and doing your damnest not to...
"Any man can stand against adversity. If you want to test someone's character, give them power." Just because someone trusts themselves, that does not mean they will be the first to fall.

Thinking you are above falling is arrogance. And you provide it in spades.

Then you are offering no solution at all.
There is no guarantee the mages you train will be good and great and wonderfull. You have no real system in place to ensure it. No real system to protect the people.

I have a feeling that you don't have children.
Tell you what - once you raise a child, and have it become exactly as you wanted it to be, call me up.

I'm not saying it would be wonderful. I'm saying it would be no worse than it was for the common man, and mages would have nothing unique to complain about. Protecting the people is a team of templars and mages to stop abomination incidents before they spread. Instead of acting as wardens for good mages, they can protect the general populace.

They already ARE protecting the general populace.
We have already established that your idea does a WORSE job of that, sicne it cannot cotain abominations and fails to have a proper response in place.

So I can't understand the value of life without a child? Allow me to point out that the world is bigger than you and your kid. If your death would save ten thousand lives, would you do it? Would you even be capable of seeing beyond your fatherless child to to bigger picture? That is what a mage would be trained to see. How the world could be better for their death, should the situation arise.

The bit about your kid was probably uncalled for, but you brought it into the equation. I won't ever be in your shoes, but that doesn't mean I am incapable of understanding. Sorry if I caused any offense, but I can't figure out how to reword it, so I'll just leave it as is.

Yes, you are incapable of understanding. Because for one, I am not talking about the value of life (nice strawman there), but about raising and teaching children.

You preach to other people about raising children without knowing the first thing about raising children (as you just admitted).
The arrogance of trying to lecuture others about things you really aren't knowledgable about!

You simply think to wave a magic wand and the children will turn out exactly as you want them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What part of "this cannot and will not work" escapes you?
I understand perfectly what you are saying. It's just that it doesn't work.

The "why" bit. I don't actually recall you mentioning that.

Then read back.


You failed to prove you can educate and condition mages to any sucesfull degree.
You failed to prove you can make them more resistant to possesion.
You failed to prove you can detect "bad" mages.
You failed to prove how your system makes the wrold a safer place.
You failed to prove you system was feasable on even the most fundamental level.

Each is capable of destroying a town. Fact.

Ferelden would be barren? No. The coutnry is large and humanity is ressilient.
There are countries in areas where natural disasters are common. People still live and have been living and thriving there despite them.

Source? Not a challenge, just a request.
An abomination isn't like an earthquake. That just hits and leaves everyone to rebuild. An abomination razes a city to the ground and slaughters the populace. You can't rebuild if everyone's dead.

Do you even bother reading this thread? A page or two back was an entire list of quotes stating that abominations are the cause of some of the worst cataclysms in history. A single abomination threatened and entire large city.

And since when are youan expert on abomination behavior?
People run away. People hide. People survive. People rebuild.

I don't know. Enough to count as rare to someone documenting a phenomena that spans all civilized countries?
I did notice that, thank you. I'm not saying abominations are a picnic, just that they aren't incredibly common.

A dozen in Ferelden alone...within a Year.
If that is reare I shudder to think what frequent would be.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Traquil aren't magicly obidient.

If their emotions would've caused them to be disobediant, then stripping them of those emotions is making them "magically obedient". So yeah, that's exactly what they are.

They are meatly logic machines - they obey because it makes perfect logical sense to obey (depending on the order).

They're nothing of the kind. Logic has no place whatsoever in a significant number of life's decisions.

You do not 'logically' decide who you would rather sleep with, or what you would rather eat. Such decisions are entirely down to personal preference, desire, which is an emotion.

Emotions can just as much cloud ones judgment.

You are very much capable of making proper judgment without emotions.

False, plenty of decisions are entirely reliant on emotion. Logic applies in decision making less often than emotion. Logic has no place in moral judgements, for instance, because morality is illogical by its very nature, and is grounded entirely in emotion.

Tranquil cannot employ logic regardless, because they are stripped of their power to make choices at all. At best, it can be argued that they possess a self-preservation instinct, but evidence is flimsy.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 novembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]thibaut72 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Majority? Not really. The circles are pretty much devided between various fraternities.
You don't need a majority to cause a sh**storm.
You just need to start the s***storm and panic will do the rest.
Don't you think many indecisive mages sided with the rebelion? Dont' you think even many loyalists thought "oh crap. Now everyone will suffer because of StupidSexyanders. We're doomed. Might as well join the rebelion."[/quote]

You ll have templar with the mages, mages with the Chantry, and neutral people. But a majority is a majority. If you don't agree with democratic system, you can go and live on a desert island, or any other country with less human right to see if it's better.[/quote]

Another strawman...

For one, the vote barely passed. If half the mages want to stay in the Circles, then it obviously can't be THAT bad, now can it?

For another, take a look at democracy. Like all system, great on paper. In practice? Not so much.

And again, mages siding with the rebellion because they are thinking "it's all over now...I might as well" even tough they would prefer to stay in the Circles is nto really a good indicator of the numbers, now is it?




[quote]
[quote]My feelings?
Dear boy, my support of the Circles is a product of a pragmatic and calculated approach.
I'm not the one trying to solve the mage problem with "my heart" and wisfull thinking.[/quote]

Humanity is governed by "heart" ("heart" mean feeling, like need of power, economic profit, hate, fear, misunderstanding ...) and wishfull thinking. It's because of "heart" that there are so many wars. [/quote]

Wait... "heart" is a bad thing because it causes wars. You think with your heart.
So you being overly emotional proves that being overly emotional is a bad thing?



[quote]
[quote]Not sure if I understand you, but the protection works.
TheDas is a safer place.[/quote]

Qunari, dragons, tevinter, marauders, darkspawns,... a very safe place ![/quote]

Safer.



[quote]
[quote]To try something I know will go wrong? I would have to be a fool. You have already been given a a extensive list of reasons why letting mages roam free is a bad idea that will backfire. Reforms are not something to gamble with. Sadly the cooler heads didn't prevail inTheDas.[/quote]

You can see the future ? In Earth history, many reform came from an idea that can go wrong. Sometimes happen ! But you can't know if you don't try and take the time to do it ! [/quote]

You don't have to be a psychic to predict obvious disaster.



[quote]
We don't know all of their arsenal... Try to be a little more logic : i told you that saar-qamek can erase a city, don't change to another theme like raise the dead or bend mind, the effect are not the same ![/qutoe]

Prove it.



[quote]
[quote][quote]So you mean that mages need to follow the rules, and templar not ?[/quote]Where have I said that?[/quote]

Most of mages follow the Maker's speech and the Chant of Light. Most of templar don't : circle are not a prerogative of the Maker, as the rite of tranquility, as ...[/quote]

.... 
What?



[quote]
[quote]What do Hawke and Flementh have to do with this?
[/quote]Hawke can be a mage, and Flemeth is an apostate, will you have the courage to send them both in the circle ? [/quote]

Yes.
Hawke had plot shield in DA2 and him being a mage had no impact whatsoever on the story. Dissapointing.


[quote]
[quote]Also, I'm not a templar, so why are you calling me one?
Unless of course, you started to identify with mages so much that you are hallucinating.[/quote]

You speak like Sir Alrik, Maker bless him [/quote]

Do not insult me or compare me with that twit... mr. Uldred the Insane



[quote]
[quote]Actually, IIRC, the vote to separate barely passed.
Literally 1 vote decided. So the cirlce is basicly split in half.[/quote]

1 vote more is a majority
[/quote]

An insiginificant majority. The difference in numbers is litteraly 1 person.
The voting done after a series of deliberate provocations to boot.

Which mean that the vote under normal circumstances probably would have been against.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote..

You are very much capable of making proper judgment without emotions.

False, plenty of decisions are entirely reliant on emotion. Logic applies in decision making less often than emotion. Logic has no place in moral judgements, for instance, because morality is illogical by its very nature, and is grounded entirely in emotion.

Tranquil cannot employ logic regardless, because they are stripped of their power to make choices at all. At best, it can be argued that they possess a self-preservation instinct, but evidence is flimsy.

False.

MORALS have no place in logical judgments.

And tranquil can employ logic. They can reason and we've seen them do it.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
False.

Hahahahaha

MORALS have no place in logical judgments.

This statement is not a contradiction of my previous statement.

Valuing logic over morality is itself a moral judgement.

And tranquil can employ logic. They can reason and we've seen them do it.

Provide an example.

I don't think you know what logic is, and if you're about to use the example I think you are, then the Tranquil don't actually know what logic is either.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I take back what I said about Lotion.  It's not important to the discussion, but I do not want people thinking I support anyone this obsessive.

Obsessive? Me?
That's a good one. If anything, I deliberately stand aginst such zelous and obsessive sorts, if for no other reason then because they go on my nerves.

Plaintiff wrote...
Hahahahaha

Haha yourself.

MORALS have no place in logical judgments.

This statement is not a contradiction of my previous statement.
Valuing logic over morality is itself a moral judgement.

According to you everything is a moral judgment, and things like deduction and logic don't exist..

Provide an example.

I
don't think you know what logic is, and if you're about to use the
example I think you are, then the Tranquil don't actually know what
logic is either.

The tranquil at the camp at the bening of DA:O.
He uses deduction and clean reasoning.


And now you calim that only your definiton matters AND if there is a game example of a logical trqanquil, he 'snto REALYL logical...because you are the sole arbiter of everything?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
And Gaider only said that in the past their where more abominations. but what past are we talking about? some  era are rife with war and chaos that leaves many mages untrained.  but i dont doubt 95% of the people back then died from pague hunger or the occasional warlord.

Gaiders response was to my question that was SPECIFICLY about life before the Circles were established.

And before the Circle, TheDas wasn't an apocalypstic wastland with roaming barbarians. It has kingdoms and everything.

100 years before drakon came to power Thedas was recovering from centuries of blight , an exalted march and a collapsed tevinter empire. Thedas most likely was an apocalyptic wasteland with roaming barbarians.

Except that is not what DG said.
You are free of course to try and twist evertying to suit your agenda.

But it was a specific answer to a speicifc question in a specific debate (how did the Circles change TheDas).
So either you are claiming DG can't read or his was anwering a question no one asked and deliberately confusing everyone.

DG is the writer and he is correct. But he gave only one piece of information: their where more abominations in the past. Thats nice but without context that statement is useless. Considering that Thedas sufferd massive wars( and the resulting social chaos that followed) i can fully beleive it that their where more abominations.

You have no proof that the circle is the only reason that their are less abominations . You arguments have no basis.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
According to you everything is a moral judgment, and things like deduction and logic don't exist.

That's not what I said at all.

I don't know why I even bother, you insist on completely misunderstanding every single thing I say.

The tranquil at the camp at the bening of DA:O.
He uses deduction and clean reasoning.

You have to give me more information than that, I'm not going to play the game over again to find what you're talking about. You need to tell me what problem he supposedly applies his "logic" to, and the answer he derives as a result 

And now you calim that only your definiton matters AND if there is a game example of a logical trqanquil, he 'snto REALYL logical...because you are the sole arbiter of everything?

If you haven't cracked open a dictionary, then that's not really something I can help.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 novembre 2012 - 12:10 .

[DKJaigen]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I take back what I said about Lotion.  It's not important to the discussion, but I do not want people thinking I support anyone this obsessive.

I come here to be entertained.  Do ya think that's a mistake?

To be really honest im simply here to provoke the templar supporters. and i do take some amusement seeing lotion rave like that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except that is not what DG said.
You are free of course to try and twist evertying to suit your agenda.

But it was a specific answer to a speicifc question in a specific debate (how did the Circles change TheDas).
So either you are claiming DG can't read or his was anwering a question no one asked and deliberately confusing everyone.

DG is the writer and he is correct. But he gave only one piece of information: their where more abominations in the past. Thats nice but without context that statement is useless. Considering that Thedas sufferd massive wars( and the resulting social chaos that followed) i can fully beleive it that their where more abominations.

You have no proof that the circle is the only reason that their are less abominations . You arguments have no basis.

And the thread, the topic AND the question ARE that context.
Becase the thread and the question weren't about the general state of Thedas... they were about the state IN RELATION to the Circles.
So your attempts at muddying the issue are doomed to fail.


Oh, the less abomination thing?
Unless you are defficient in areas of math and common sense, having the vast majority of all mages in one central location would indicate there are less abominations and rampaging mages running around.
Because they are in the tower.
As opposed to out there.
I know, people not being in two places at once is a shocking concept...

DKJaigen wrote...
To be really honest im simply here to provoke the templar supporters. and i do take some amusement seeing lotion rave like that.

Honest troll is honest...at least something.

And if you think you are causing me rage you are sorely mistaken.
Pitty would be more appropriate...and amusement.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 novembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't know why I even bother, you insist on completely misunderstanding every single thing I say.

Now you know how it feels to talk to you.

And now you calim that only your definiton matters AND if there is a game example of a logical trqanquil, he 'snto REALYL logical...because you are the sole arbiter of everything?

If you haven't cracked open a dictionary, then that's not really something I can help.

And dellusions are not something I can help you with.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hanz54321 wrote...
And that's why I say he's obsessive.  I was skimming through my PMs and found one I wrote to him back in may.  I told him you were a jerk and to quit wasting his time trying to reason with you.

But now it's 6 months later and he's still smashing his head on the wall about this issue.  I stopped arguing with you as soon as I figured out you were just being provocative because I'm smarter than to have a circular argument with anyone.

I got nothing better to do.
Bad weather, slow day.

And the utter fail that are some of the arguments I've seen here amuse me.

What, you really think that I post here because I think he would see reason or I could convince him?
Do you really think "kill all the mages" is my real stance on the matter?

If there is one thing that's more fun than trolling..then I'd say it has to be out-trolling a troll.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 novembre 2012 - 02:49 .

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, we see those two Circle mages at the docks, talking about how the universe of Dragon Age is a game.

And the codex entry isn't always correct, because, you know, Wynne is allowed to leave. So we know that it isn't completely correct.

Lake Calenhad Docks? I must have missed that. But we don't see many Circle mages let out of the tower. I can name Wynne and Ines and that's all that I recall.

Accuracy actually doesn't matter here. The codex said nothing in regards to freedoms, good or bad. It just means we have no information regarding it.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 04:03 .