817 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.
You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.

No, I've got the right of it.  You see, neither the religious nor secular powers in Thedas have much real power over the other.  Rather they run parallel to one another with the former being based on prestige, and the latter on more practical concerns.  Under the right conditions, either would have the potential to dominate the other.

hhh89 wrote...

Of course riots and rebellions could be put down. My point was avoiding them.

And, like I said, there are ways to do that without involving third parties.

hhh89 wrote...

And you didn't respond abou the epidemy.

Because it would fall under the same broad category as a Blight or qunari attack.  IE a one-off major disaster rather than an ongoing societal problem.

hhh89 wrote...

I never said that this doesn't happen. It's only logical to sell the products of the Circle. It's not the same as leading mages to help people.

It would be allowing mages to help people.

hhh89 wrote...

Regardless, it's obvious to sell the Circle's products. Why would Meredith forbid this, when a part of the profit goes in the Chantry/templar's hands?

Exactly.  Magic is serving man and not ruling over him.

hhh89 wrote...

You misunderstood me. When I talked about the benefits of huge quantity of money, I was talking strictly about the nobles who pay for the mage's services. It was a benefit of curing nobles, not a benefit for curing common people.

The same principle applies though.  Using magic would be worth it for some nobles, but not for others.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cowoline wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cowoline wrote...
The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

Nice theory... but how about some evidence?

There is this book given to Wynne that has an interresting theory.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Search_for_the_True_Prophet


Then there is the case with the elves. According to Shartan. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shartan
Andraste promised the elves their own lands, a promise that the Chantry has failed to honour, despite they say that they preach her teachings. Instead the cities now have alienages, so it would seem that their fortunes have not improved much.

It is not conclusive proof, but it does suggest that at least in some way the chantry pulled away from what was initially Andraste's intention... unless she was a lying and manipulating fraud of course.

Writing a book does not make the subject true. I could easily write a book arguing that a prominent religous figure, lets say jesus, was actually female. Chances are that most christians wouldn't like that book.
Furhtermore the Andraste did give the Elves their own homeland and the Chantry respected that. The Dalish threw that away themselves by going to war with Orlais (and later the rest of Thedas). Not the fault of the Chantry, but rather the Dalish themselves.

[Solmanian]

The mages are constantly seen taking part in local wars, like working with kailen even before the wardens invoked their treaty. The circle tranquils have almost a monopoly on the making of magical item in the surface world, thus being an importent part of global economy. The circle is basically called upon when any noble is need of magical assisstance (as seen in redcliff). It's assumed that the circle also provide assisstance where magic would be a more efficient alternative to manual labour; Ofcourse, since magic is reliant on the very expensice lyrium, these instances are probably extreme cases where haste is more importent than cost.

Also, prolonged exposure to magic is considered harmfull like working in a nuclear reactor. Scientifily speaking, the feats performed by magic such as producing things out of thin air, probably demands a great deal of energy and release impressive amount of radiaton. "Static" magic, like a magic sword, likely rpoduces radiation equivelent to a laptop, while being under the influence of enhancement spells like haste will be like hugging a working microwave...

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people. We know that the Chantry could send mages to do a certain mission (Varric's lie in the second ser Thrask's quest in Act 1). I don't see why they wouldn't send one or two mages to help people, with a group of templars and for short period of time. Of course, mages might be against being used like this, but my example was from the Chantry's point of view.

Because of mages like Anders who will throw themselves into a lake to escape the Templars if you just take them out for some quick exercise.

[cowoline]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cowoline wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cowoline wrote...
The Chantry is an institution of power that has turned and twisted the words of Andraste to suit their own means. They say that is was the hubris of the magisters and their lust for power that led them to infiltrate the golden city. Now a thousand years later, we see the templars being corrupted by the exact same thing. Desire for power and control.

Nice theory... but how about some evidence?

There is this book given to Wynne that has an interresting theory.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Search_for_the_True_Prophet


Then there is the case with the elves. According to Shartan. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shartan
Andraste promised the elves their own lands, a promise that the Chantry has failed to honour, despite they say that they preach her teachings. Instead the cities now have alienages, so it would seem that their fortunes have not improved much.

It is not conclusive proof, but it does suggest that at least in some way the chantry pulled away from what was initially Andraste's intention... unless she was a lying and manipulating fraud of course.

Writing a book does not make the subject true. I could easily write a book arguing that a prominent religous figure, lets say jesus, was actually female. Chances are that most christians wouldn't like that book.
Furhtermore the Andraste did give the Elves their own homeland and the Chantry respected that. The Dalish threw that away themselves by going to war with Orlais (and later the rest of Thedas). Not the fault of the Chantry, but rather the Dalish themselves.

Which was why I used the terms "theory" and "not conclusive":)

Edit:

As for the elves, then I take that back /humbly bows

There is though evidence of contradictions with what the Chantry condems as fact and what others believe to be the truth, Who is right and wrong is harder to determine.

There is the case with Lord Perrin, who tried to give the templars the boot from Kirkwall before Dumar. He killed the Knight-commander and was later imprisoned by Meredith and Elthina. Then poisoned, but the cause is unknown. The Chnatry says he was a crule Tyrant, but Dumar says he was a good man.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Viscount_Marlowe_Dumar

Then there is sister Petrice, who has obviously misunderstood some of the elements.

I am not saying that the entire Chantry is corrupt or that my theory is waterproof, but there is evidence to suggest that some things are going on behind Chantry walls, that seems like more of a political scheem than religious worship.

Modifié par cowoline, 06 novembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Templars often come from noble families. If said noble families have a more positive view of mages, it would rub off on the Templars of the next generation.

In this case, the templar from the noble family would treat mages better. I doubt he'd have the power to ask the Divine to make a law for treating better the mages or giving them larger freedom.

It will always be more favorable to cater to the rich and abbandon the poor, it is the way of life in a commercial society, probably even more so in a feudal one.

I know that. That doesn't mean I find stupid not helping poor people or being against it.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
In this case, the templar from the noble family would treat mages better. I doubt he'd have the power to ask the Divine to make a law for treating better the mages or giving them larger freedom.

It's mostly the Knight Commander of each Circle that determines how mages are treated and, ultimately, only within that particular Circle.
A templar from a noble family can just buy his way up the ranks and treat the mages under his care with humanity once he is Knight Commander.

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


You're understimating the power the
Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.

No, I've got the right of it.  You see, neither the religious
nor secular powers in Thedas have much real power over the other. 
Rather they run parallel to one another with the former being based on
prestige, and the latter on more practical concerns.  Under the right conditions, either would have the potential to dominate the other.

Which
would be having a king as a religious people, or being heavily
influenced by the Chantry's teachings. Or having a Divine from a noble
family. Those cases could happen, but in general the Chantry isn't
influence by the secular powers, expecially in the topic of magic. Which
was my point.

hhh89 wrote...

I
never said that this doesn't happen. It's only logical to sell the
products of the Circle. It's not the same as leading mages to help
people.

It would be allowing mages to help people.

Yes, but it's only a small part of what mages could do for poor people. And poor people couldn't afford a lot of products of the Circle

hhh89 wrote...

Regardless,
it's obvious to sell the Circle's products. Why would Meredith forbid
this, when a part of the profit goes in the Chantry/templar's hands?

Exactly.  Magic is serving man and not ruling over him.

Which I wasn't disputing. My point is that it could do a lot more, and not only for a certain part of people. You're forgetting that in Ferelden (and probably in other nations) the Circle isn't situated near a city, and that the majority of people couldn't buy their products.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 novembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that magic isn't dangerous. I'm saying that magic can help people greatly.
Even
considering the Circle system, I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't
send two mage healers with a group of templars in a city to help people.
We know that the Chantry could send mages to do a certain mission
(Varric's lie in the second ser Thrask's quest in Act 1). I don't see
why they wouldn't send one or two mages to help people, with a group of
templars and for short period of time. Of course, mages might be against
being used like this, but my example was from the Chantry's point of
view.

Because of mages like Anders who will throw
themselves into a lake to escape the Templars if you just take them out
for some quick exercise.

I said that the mage should be watched by the templars, and I forgot to say that the Chantry/templars should choose the mage carefully. Wynne, Irwing or Bethany wouldn't escape

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
In this case, the templar from the noble family would treat mages better. I doubt he'd have the power to ask the Divine to make a law for treating better the mages or giving them larger freedom.

It's mostly the Knight Commander of each Circle that determines how mages are treated and, ultimately, only within that particular Circle.
A templar from a noble family can just buy his way up the ranks and treat the mages under his care with humanity once he is Knight Commander.

The situation would change as soon as this KC dies, retires or is transferred, and the next KC is a stricter one.
My point (which I probably explained badly) was that the nobles themselves don't have the power to change or influence the condition of mages, if they're not inside the Chantry or the templars.

[General User]

hhh89 wrote...

Which would be having a king as a religious people, or being heavily
influenced by the Chantry's teachings. Or having a Divine from a noble
family. Those cases could happen, but in general the Chantry isn't
influence by the secular powers, expecially in the topic of magic. Which
was my point.

It's a bit (a lot) more complex than that.  So much so infact that I don't think I can really explain how much so in this format.  Lucky for both of us then that I don't have to.  Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom by Tom Holland, is well worth a read for anyone looking to develop a deeper understanding of how church and state can interact.

Anyways, suffice to say that the Chantry and the various lords temporal of Thedas operate in parallel to, though sometimes in tandem and sometimes at odds with, each other.  They each have their own bases and pillars of support in Thedan society, as well as their own perogatives.  All of which would be subject to change under the right conditons.

Yes, but it's only a small part of what mages could do for poor people.
And poor people couldn't afford a lot of products of the Circle

There are lots of things poor people can't afford.  They're poor.

Which I wasn't disputing. My point is that it could do a lot more, and not only for a certain part of people. You're forgetting that in Ferelden (and probably in other nations) the Circle isn't situated near a city, and that the majority of people couldn't buy their products.

Perhaps magic and mages could have "done more".  It's just that there were a number of very good reasons why they could/should not.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

It's not like having the favour of the nobles will change the situation in the Circle.

You are aware that the nobility are very much the ruling class in Thedas, yes?

And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.

You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.
Templars often come from noble families. If said noble families have a more positive view of mages, it would rub off on the Templars of the next generation.

hhh89 wrote...

General User wrote...

The benefit in curing common people is decreasing the chance of riots and rebellions, and decreasing the chance of triggering an epidemy (in the case of certain illness).

There are lots of ways to decrease "the chance of riots and rebellions" (or to put them down should they happen) that don't involve utilizing outside parties who may or may not have their own agendas.

Of course riots and rebellions could be put down. My point was avoiding them.
And you didn't respond abou the epidemy.

It will always be more favorable to cater to the rich and abbandon the poor, it is the way of life in a commercial society, probably even more so in a feudal one.

Once again your apllying fanfiction their is no evidence at all that most templars are noble born.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Who's to say they don't?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In Kirkwall they didn't send mages to help common people, even considering the fact that the town was full of refugees. Though I think Kirkwall isn't the best city to use as example, so I wouldn't consider this a definite proof.
From the info I know about the Circle, the mages and their condition and the Chantry, I don't think the Chantry sends mages to help people, or the mages themselves agree on helping people. I could be wrong, of course, but that's the opinion I have on the matter. I'll be glad to be proven wrong (though considering the fact that the Circle system is broken for now, the evidence would be either some codex entry or some comics, games or books set before Asunder).

So no evidence.

Hmmm...mages themselves not agreeing to help? Possible. I don't think many manges would be interested. Even fewer would be capable. Not that many mages are healers, and healing magic isn't that powerfull in TheDas.
There are plenty of herbs, potions and natural healers.
Aslo, would healrs really go around makign rounds? I believe that if people need help they come to the Circle and ask. Even then I also assume most people would go to a normal healer first.

[The Elder King]

General User wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Which would be having a king as a religious people, or being heavily
influenced by the Chantry's teachings. Or having a Divine from a noble
family. Those cases could happen, but in general the Chantry isn't
influence by the secular powers, expecially in the topic of magic. Which
was my point.

It's a bit (a lot) more complex than that.  So much so infact that I don't think I can really explain how much so in this format.  Lucky for both of us then that I don't have to.  Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom by Tom Holland, is well worth a read for anyone looking to develop a deeper understanding of how church and state can interact.

Anyways, suffice to say that the Chantry and the various lords temporal of Thedas operate in parallel to, though sometimes in tandem and sometimes at odds with, each other.  They each have their own bases and pillars of support in Thedan society, as well as their own perogatives.  All of which would be subject to change under the right conditons.

I was making the most basic examples on how the Chantry and the various kingdoms could influence each other
I live in the country in which the Catholic Church is located. I know a bit how a church could influence or interact with a state (though I'll probablt read the book you mentioned, since it seems interesting).
I agree with you that the Chantry and the secular powers in Thedas operate in the way you said, and that they bases of support are different. Their interactions are deeper than what I suggested in my post, and one of them might influence the other in a great way, in determinate cases and conditions (which aren't only the examples I said in my post). My point was that magic and mages is one of the topics in which it'd be really hard for the secular powers to influence the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]hhh89 wrote...
And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.
You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.[/qutoe]

And it is possible oyu are overestimating it.

Our own history is a great example of hte fluctuating power of the Catholic Chruch.
Some kings listened to the Pope, some outright defied him.
Power and influence and not static things. They are flud - ever changing depending on circumstances.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sibu wrote...
Be Quiet!

The Chantry is weak, the Templars are even weaker, too many of them care too much for the abominations. If we truly want to get rid of the magocracy, we need the Inquisition.

This song is a better match for the New Templar Order:



Or maybe this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYzPHfyAjOk

Or even THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbAt34gxdB0

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Auintus]

Sibu wrote...

Be Quiet!

The Chantry is weak, the Templars are even weaker, too many of them care too much for the abominations. If we truly want to get rid of the magocracy, we need the Inquisition.

You do realize that the Inquisition isn't automatically anti-mage, right?
And more like too few of the Templars care about the mages. They are charges to be guarded, from others and from themselves, not prisoners.
When is there a magocracy? The Imperium doesn't count, we're in Orlais.

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
And you are aware that both templars and Chantry probably wouldn't care what the majority would say that mages should have larger freedom? The only one who the Chantry might listen to is the emperor/empress of Orlais, and even in this case I'm not sure the Chantry would listed to him/her.
You're understimating the power the Chantry has, or overstimating the power nobility has over the Chantry.

And it is possible oyu are overestimating it.

Our own history is a great example of hte fluctuating power of the Catholic Chruch.
Some kings listened to the Pope, some outright defied him.
Power and influence and not static things. They are flud - ever changing depending on circumstances.

In my post I wan't saying that the Chantry has power or influence over the nobles. I was saying that GU was understimating the power of the Chantry, or overstimating the influence of the nobles over the Chantry.
My point is that the Chantry holds great power, and it's not easily influenced by the secular powers about magic and mages.

[BlueMagitek]

You can take the "Magic is meant to serve man; never to rule over him" in a few ways.

Here are just a few:

1) We cannot allow people with magical capability to rule
2) Magic, though powerful, should not be used for personal gain but to help others.
3) Mages should be in control of their power, and not become abominations

Now, for the most part, I think when we, the player, hear the quote, we think of primarily 2, sometimes 3.

However it's pretty clear the Chantry has gone with 1. Probably because of the entire Imperium thing.

[The Elder King]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You can take the "Magic is meant to serve man; never to rule over him" in a few ways.

Here are just a few:

1) We cannot allow people with magical capability to rule
2) Magic, though powerful, should not be used for personal gain but to help others.
3) Mages should be in control of their power, and not become abominations

Now, for the most part, I think when we, the player, hear the quote, we think of primarily 2, sometimes 3.

However it's pretty clear the Chantry has gone with 1. Probably because of the entire Imperium thing.

Well, I think that killing Andraste, and making the Maker left humanity again (according to the Chantry) didn't probably help.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You can take the "Magic is meant to serve man; never to rule over him" in a few ways.

Here are just a few:

1) We cannot allow people with magical capability to rule
2) Magic, though powerful, should not be used for personal gain but to help others.
3) Mages should be in control of their power, and not become abominations

Now, for the most part, I think when we, the player, hear the quote, we think of primarily 2, sometimes 3.

However it's pretty clear the Chantry has gone with 1. Probably because of the entire Imperium thing.

The use of the word "magic" rather than "mages" is actually an interesting distinction, though.

[Josielyn]

How about: Mages shouldn't be allowed to enslave non mages?

[Auintus]

Josielyn wrote...

How about: Mages shouldn't be allowed to enslave non mages?

But it's allowed the other way around?

[BlueMagitek]

Don't forget that the Chant has been translated and re-translated, altered and separate parts made canon over the centuries.

[Todd23]

 Serve man as in litterly?

[Josielyn]

Auintus wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

How about: Mages shouldn't be allowed to enslave non mages?

But it's allowed the other way around?

Yes, ironic how imprisonment and slavery are just a little bit different?  Now, if the mages were forced to shine templar boots, sweep the floors and so on, then the Chantry probably couldn't get away with it.  So, "antimagic" doesn't count, since it can be used to rule over mankind?  Maybe the Chantry doesn't view mages as part of the great human race?  Ooooh this is a fun discussion!