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[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Definately not letting you in my house now.
Understanding oneself is not arrogance.
Pride is letting one think oneself superior, beyond corruption. But by treating every situation as a chance to fall and doing your damnest not to...
"Any man can stand against adversity. If you want to test someone's character, give them power." Just because someone trusts themselves, that does not mean they will be the first to fall.

Thinking you are above falling is arrogance. And you provide it in spades.

Arrogant to spend years to understand who I am? I have dark thoughts. I will be fighting corruption until the day I die. But that's just it. I'm not arrogant enough to think that I am above it. I just know that I will never ignore it.

I'm not saying it would be wonderful. I'm saying it would be no worse than it was for the common man, and mages would have nothing unique to complain about. Protecting the people is a team of templars and mages to stop abomination incidents before they spread. Instead of acting as wardens for good mages, they can protect the general populace.

They already ARE protecting the general populace.
We have already established that your idea does a WORSE job of that, sicne it cannot cotain abominations and fails to have a proper response in place.

Most templars are in the tower, watching over good mages while far fewer are outside, slaying abominations that arise from untrained or evil mages.
My idea better equips templars outside the Circle to track down and kill abominations. No, they are not contained. No one could ever accomplish that. No, templars will not be around every single mage to kill them if they fall, but the current system is no better.

Yes, you are incapable of understanding. Because for one, I am not talking about the value of life (nice strawman there), but about raising and teaching children.

You preach to other people about raising children without knowing the first thing about raising children (as you just admitted).
The arrogance of trying to lecuture others about things you really aren't knowledgable about!

You simply think to wave a magic wand and the children will turn out exactly as you want them.

I actually thought you were refering to the value of life, no strawman intended.

Never mind, that's really not my information to give out. I never should have in the first place.
Long story short, I've never raised a child myself, but I've seen it, under rather extreme circumstances. It can be done well.
I've never raised a child, but don't assume I know nothing. Time will tell which of us is right, but I'm not counting on you.
A child will never be exactly what you want, but a good moral system is not hard to teach. The current Circle mages have proven it. I'd trust them.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Then read back.


You failed to prove you can educate and condition mages to any sucesfull degree.
You failed to prove you can make them more resistant to possesion.
You failed to prove you can detect "bad" mages.
You failed to prove how your system makes the wrold a safer place.
You failed to prove you system was feasable on even the most fundamental level.

The current Circle system educates them quite well.
They will not be considerably more resistant to possession, rare as it is.
Blood magic can let you into someone's mind to control it, why not look around. Though I'll admit, I cannot prove that.
More "police" in the field instead of "wardens" in the jail. I think the metaphor is accurate.
My system merely trusts Circle mages, that is the only difference from the current system. Apostates would still be subject to suspicion, but most every Circle mage I've seen has been a good individual.

Source? Not a challenge, just a request.
An abomination isn't like an earthquake. That just hits and leaves everyone to rebuild. An abomination razes a city to the ground and slaughters the populace. You can't rebuild if everyone's dead.

Do you even bother reading this thread? A page or two back was an entire list of quotes stating that abominations are the cause of some of the worst cataclysms in history. A single abomination threatened and entire large city.

And since when are youan expert on abomination behavior?
People run away. People hide. People survive. People rebuild.

Not the whole thing. Takes too long. Most of it's just inane bickering anyway.

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, abominations, unless under the control of a greater demon, just lash out. I figure that'd mean destroying a city along with it's population. Maybe I'm wrong, at least I can admit it.

A dozen in Ferelden alone...within a Year.
If that is reare I shudder to think what frequent would be.

In-game? Because if each abomination can take a city, and we've had a dozen...yeah, Fereldan would depopulate pretty quickly. In-game they are not a city-destroying threat. They're just another target.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 05:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Lake Calenhad Docks? I must have missed that. But we don't see many Circle mages let out of the tower. I can name Wynne and Ines and that's all that I recall.

Accuracy actually doesn't matter here. The codex said nothing in regards to freedoms, good or bad. It just means we have no information regarding it.

After you save the Circle, head over near the Spoiled Princess.  There are two mages beyond the fence, with no Templar around, just chatting about how life is a game, man.

We have no information from the Codex, yes.  But we do have information from outside it.  We have Wynne, we have Shale's owner (I continue to forget his name, forgive me), Ines, the mages who chill out at Redcliffe, most of the mages who join us during the Blight (I don't see any Templar in the ranks), the Couslands (if I recall correctly) can request magical healing.   So there are ways for Mages to leave the Circle, and yes there are circumstances around it (Senior Enchanter, Noble's favor, request, etc), but it defeats the sweeping statement of no mages leaving the Circle ever.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lake Calenhad Docks? I must have missed that. But we don't see many Circle mages let out of the tower. I can name Wynne and Ines and that's all that I recall.

Accuracy actually doesn't matter here. The codex said nothing in regards to freedoms, good or bad. It just means we have no information regarding it.

After you save the Circle, head over near the Spoiled Princess.  There are two mages beyond the fence, with no Templar around, just chatting about how life is a game, man.

We have no information from the Codex, yes.  But we do have information from outside it.  We have Wynne, we have Shale's owner (I continue to forget his name, forgive me), Ines, the mages who chill out at Redcliffe, most of the mages who join us during the Blight (I don't see any Templar in the ranks), the Couslands (if I recall correctly) can request magical healing.   So there are ways for Mages to leave the Circle, and yes there are circumstances around it (Senior Enchanter, Noble's favor, request, etc), but it defeats the sweeping statement of no mages leaving the Circle ever.

That explains it. I never go back to Calenhad after I save the Circle.

Redcliffe? Damn, I must really not be paying attention. Disregarding Wynne, Wilhelm, and Ines, Gregoir after Broken Circle says that the templars can't help because they have to watch the mages. The mages at Ostagar are under supervision, so I doubt the templars are far behind those fighting the Blight. Then again, no proof of that.
True, that overarching statement is certainly false, although I'd like to point out that few of these seem to be of the mage's own will.
Could you point me to where in Redcliffe? I want to make sure I don't miss it this time.

[MisterJB]

Also, in "Asunder" Rhys makes allusion to the mages of the White Spire, in Val-Royeaux, being allowed to visit the city and even buy personal proprierty.
Guess who scared the templars into removing those freedoms. Anders and his "There can be no compromise" bullsh*t.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 novembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, in "Asunder" Rhys makes allusion to the mages of the White Spire, in Val-Royeaux, being allowed to visit the city and even buy personal proprierty.
Guess who scared the templars into removing those freedoms. Anders and his "There can be no compromise" bullsh*t.

On the one hand, that shows that some Circles do have greater degrees of freedom, though I doubt the mages went without an escort. Still, very good.
On the other hand, that goes back to punishing all mages, Circle mages, on the actions of one apostate.(Ignoring his issue with Justice. Most templars wouldn't know that.)
The White Spire is also located within the city, while Fereldan's was fairly isolated. Kirkwall, though...

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[MisterJB]

Assuming they would be escorted, that would be as much for their protection. There are a lot of mundanes who don't like mages.

Common human reaction, it was only to be expected. Hell, it was the whole reason Anders did what he did. He predicted the templars would crack down on the mages who would fight back and spiral downwards into a world war.
And, to be fair, the Libertarians became overly agressive after Ander's terrorist attack. One even tried to assassinate the Divine.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Arrogant to spend years to understand who I am? I have dark thoughts. I will be fighting corruption until the day I die. But that's just it. I'm not arrogant enough to think that I am above it. I just know that I will never ignore it.

And you think every one that falls ignores it?
No, they fight it just like you. It's just that it's a never-ending war and you're bound to loose some battles.

Saying "I know myself, and therefore I will never fall to temptation" is silly.

They already ARE protecting the general populace.
We have already established that your idea does a WORSE job of that, sicne it cannot cotain abominations and fails to have a proper response in place.

Most templars are in the tower, watching over good mages while far fewer are outside, slaying abominations that arise from untrained or evil mages.
My idea better equips templars outside the Circle to track down and kill abominations. No, they are not contained. No one could ever accomplish that. No, templars will not be around every single mage to kill them if they fall, but the current system is no better.

Abominations arise from mages in the tower too. Which is why you need tempalrs there. Also to wathc over them should try try to dabbel with blood magic.

In your system there would be far more mages roaming outside, therefore far more abominations outside. Therefore, far more death outside.

Long story short, I've never raised a child myself, but I've seen it, under rather extreme circumstances. It can be done well.
I've never raised a child, but don't assume I know nothing. Time will tell which of us is right, but I'm not counting on you.
A child will never be exactly what you want, but a good moral system is not hard to teach. The current Circle mages have proven it. I'd trust them.

You'd be surprised how hard it is to teach.

Also, current Circle mages gave rise to Uldred and Anders.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Assuming they would be escorted, that would be as much for their protection. There are a lot of mundanes who don't like mages.

Common human reaction, it was only to be expected. Hell, it was the whole reason Anders did what he did. He wanted to start a war.
And, to be fair, the Libertarians became overly agressive after Ander's terrorist attack. One even tried to assassinate the Divine.

Very true, if only because mages seem incapable of walking around in normal clothes and without a staff...But yes, point taken.

True again. Anders knew exactly how they would react from that incident and what it would accomplish. But you can be careful without locking people up.

I'd disagree on the last one. The Libertarians are still playing by the rules, with the exception of the one. Though perhaps I am misreading "aggressive" as "violent." Libertarians have always wanted freedom, the current restraints are exact the opposite. So, yes, they are more vocal, but the majority of them aren't going to violent extremes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
The current Circle system educates them quite well.
They will not be considerably more resistant to possession, rare as it is.
Blood magic can let you into someone's mind to control it, why not look around. Though I'll admit, I cannot prove that.
More "police" in the field instead of "wardens" in the jail. I think the metaphor is accurate.
My system merely trusts Circle mages, that is the only difference from the current system. Apostates would still be subject to suspicion, but most every Circle mage I've seen has been a good individual.

- not well enough to let them roam free
- they won't be any more resistant to possesion
- Yes, you cannot prove that.
- Which, due ot being mroe manges outside, amounts to nothing. You're moving more of the danger outside of the tower, among the populace. That does not make the countryside safer.
- and thats why it doesn't work. You cannot operate purely on trust. Because that trust will be betrays when you're dealign with a large group if individuals. The common folk will not accept that system. When the first few "free" mages fall, they will demand the old system back.

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, abominations, unless under the control of a greater demon, just lash out. I figure that'd mean destroying a city along with it's population. Maybe I'm wrong, at least I can admit it.

A greater demon is an abomination too.
And abomiantiosn come in many forms. Rage demons pretty much just lash out. Others are far more subtle and deadly.

There is a story of an abomination that hid inside a large city for years, slowly corrupting and influencing people, nearly destroying it.

In-game? Because if each abomination can take a city, and we've had a dozen...yeah, Fereldan would depopulate pretty quickly. In-game they are not a city-destroying threat. They're just another target.

In-game everyhing that is not the player is a target.
The the explots of Hawke and Warden certanly have to be taken with a grain of salt (as they ruin the credibiltiy of hte lore of the world), the populace certanly seems to think that abominations are both common enough and dangerous enough that the Circels are needed.

[Auintus]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you think every one that falls ignores it?
No, they fight it just like you. It's just that it's a never-ending war and you're bound to loose some battles.

Saying "I know myself, and therefore I will never fall to temptation" is silly.[/quote]

Those who fall have grown complacent, confident. Arrogance, as you said. But in doubting yourself every step...You may move more slowly, but you are far less likely to slip.
I'm not saying I will never fall. I watch my step. It's all I can do. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

[quote][quote]

Most templars are in the tower, watching over good mages while far fewer are outside, slaying abominations that arise from untrained or evil mages.
My idea better equips templars outside the Circle to track down and kill abominations. No, they are not contained. No one could ever accomplish that. No, templars will not be around every single mage to kill them if they fall, but the current system is no better.[/quote]

Abominations arise from mages in the tower too. Which is why you need tempalrs there. Also to wathc over them should try try to dabbel with blood magic.

In your system there would be far more mages roaming outside, therefore far more abominations outside. Therefore, far more death outside.[quote]

True, but are mages incapable of fighting abominations? Couldn't they help? Allow some outside to help hunt them down?

More Harrowed mages outside, yes. Which are less likely to be possessed than an apprentice or most apostates.

[quote]

You'd be surprised how hard it is to teach.

Also, current Circle mages gave rise to Uldred and Anders.

[/quote]

Recent irl events make me think that you may be correct. I might just be an anomaly.
However, the Circle is a closed, monitored system. Surely it would be easier without external influences.

Anders was pushed by Justice, a being that thinks in absolutes, even fully possessed if Rivalry. Uldred was...I don't know. Ines said Wynne kept pestering him and I know what it's like to want to be left alone, but turning to demons? I think he may have had a mental issue. But yes, Uldred is a fair point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Redcliffe? Damn, I must really not be paying attention. Disregarding Wynne, Wilhelm, and Ines, Gregoir after Broken Circle says that the templars can't help because they have to watch the mages. The mages at Ostagar are under supervision, so I doubt the templars are far behind those fighting the Blight. Then again, no proof of that.
True, that overarching statement is certainly false, although I'd like to point out that few of these seem to be of the mage's own will.

Sure they have to. After the events of the Broken Circle, each one of them could be possesed.
They have to be extra carefull.

It's not like they don't do the same to their own.
That templars in DA2 that was almost forcibly possesed? They put him under strict supervision FOR 10 YEARS.

So all that "templars are needlesly harsh" BS is just that - they are as harsh as they need to be. I recall DG saying that there are very good reasons behing the rules the circles uses (including separating mage children)

[Auintus]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

- not well enough to let them roam free
- they won't be any more resistant to possesion
- Yes, you cannot prove that.
- Which, due ot being mroe manges outside, amounts to nothing. You're moving more of the danger outside of the tower, among the populace. That does not make the countryside safer.
- and thats why it doesn't work. You cannot operate purely on trust. Because that trust will be betrays when you're dealign with a large group if individuals. The common folk will not accept that system. When the first few "free" mages fall, they will demand the old system back.[/quote]

-Why not? They're trained to ward off demons and serve the common good with their powers.
-Yes, I admitted that.
-Again, I admitted that.
-Yes, it does. More trained mages outside, which are less likely(note the lack of "never") to be possessed, means more people with the capablility to help take down an abomination.
-Can't trust? You forget that you trust everyone around you, every day, not to stick a knife in your back. Civilization operates on trust. Families operate on trust. Without it, you become a hermit. A free mage falls and a half-dozen others help put down the resulting abomination.

[quote]
I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, abominations, unless under the control of a greater demon, just lash out. I figure that'd mean destroying a city along with it's population. Maybe I'm wrong, at least I can admit it.[/quote]

A greater demon is an abomination too.
And abomiantiosn come in many forms. Rage demons pretty much just lash out. Others are far more subtle and deadly.

There is a story of an abomination that hid inside a large city for years, slowly corrupting and influencing people, nearly destroying it.[/quote]

I never heard that one. Sounds good, where do I find it?

[quote]
In-game? Because if each abomination can take a city, and we've had a dozen...yeah, Fereldan would depopulate pretty quickly. In-game they are not a city-destroying threat. They're just another target.[/quote]

In-game everyhing that is not the player is a target.
The the explots of Hawke and Warden certanly have to be taken with a grain of salt (as they ruin the credibiltiy of hte lore of the world), the populace certanly seems to think that abominations are both common enough and dangerous enough that the Circels are needed.
[/quote]

Not true. My dog is not a target. Alistair is not a target. Leliana is(usually) not a target.
The populace also has never dealt with a mage that was not an abomination. Apostates would be turned in and so they wouldn't risk showing their powers. Levyn's group trusts him because he has demonstrated good use of his powers. The same could be said of any mage, if allowed to defend the common folk. But Circle mages are locked up, and apostates fear the templars. So, no mages defending the innocent, sad day.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sure they have to. After the events of the Broken Circle, each one of them could be possesed.
They have to be extra carefull.

It's not like they don't do the same to their own.
That templars in DA2 that was almost forcibly possesed? They put him under strict supervision FOR 10 YEARS.

So all that "templars are needlesly harsh" BS is just that - they are as harsh as they need to be. I recall DG saying that there are very good reasons behing the rules the circles uses (including separating mage children)

Gregoir seemed content at Irving's word, though compounded with the Kirkwall incident, you are probably right. Though I doubt it would have been different otherwise.

Templars do go too far. They have their reasons, very good reasons. But they are stretched beyond what is necessary. The average Circle is fairly reasonable, but mages have no defense from the corruption within them. Also, the "no freedom" bit. That could be taxing.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you think every one that falls ignores it?
No, they fight it just like you. It's just that it's a never-ending war and you're bound to loose some battles.

Saying "I know myself, and therefore I will never fall to temptation" is silly.

Those who fall have grown complacent, confident. Arrogance, as you said. But in doubting yourself every step...You may move more slowly, but you are far less likely to slip.
I'm not saying I will never fall. I watch my step. It's all I can do. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

You said that wisely.
But humans will be humans.
Even if you were the perfect human, you will never be alble to make them into perfect obedient clones.

All that everyone can do is try their best. Still, our best is sadly often not enough.

Abominations arise from mages in the tower too. Which is why you need tempalrs there. Also to wathc over them should try try to dabbel with blood magic.

In your system there would be far more mages roaming outside, therefore far more abominations outside. Therefore, far more death outside.

True, but are mages incapable of fighting abominations? Couldn't they help? Allow some outside to help hunt them down?

Mages are capable of fighting..but how do you ensure that they would be there?
If mages are free to go where they like, they will be spread apart. How do you ensure there is a squad of templars nearby?

If there are 100 mages in the circle and you let them go free...now oyu have 100 potential abominatiosn and blood mages outside. Each going their separate way. You cannot know which one will fall... so what do you do?
Follow all of them?

Bob the mage becomes an abomination 50 kilometers from the town in the village of Hux.
50 Km is not far for our standards. Heck, lets make it 15km.

But without cars and phones - how long would it take for word of abomination attack to reach? How long till the respose comes? 15 km is spitting distance, and we're still looking at 1-2 hours. That is an eternity. The abomintion could kill the entire village and move on. By the time templars come, it's gone.

Also, a mage on the battlefield with demons is also a potential problem. Demons LOVE to corrupt mages. They like to hang out where the veil is thin.
Take a mage with you and you suddenly might find yourself fighting two abominations.

More Harrowed mages outside, yes. Which are less likely to be possessed than an apprentice or most apostates.

Possibly. Harrowing is no guarantee at all, so I wouldn't call a "harrowed" mage more resistant at all.
But all of those mages would normally be inside the Circle, making them not a factor at all.

Recent irl events make me think that you may be correct. I might just be an anomaly.
However, the Circle is a closed, monitored system. Surely it would be easier without external influences.

I wish you were right you know.
It would make life easier for a LOT of parents and maybe make a world a better place.
Or a worse one if bad parents do the moulding.


As for the Circle.
It's not as closed as you think. Mages interact with templars and other mages. Also visitors.
And once they go out you have 0 control over their future shaping.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Templars do go too far. They have their reasons, very good reasons. But they are stretched beyond what is necessary. The average Circle is fairly reasonable, but mages have no defense from the corruption within them. Also, the "no freedom" bit. That could be taxing.

It's easy to side with the underdog (mages). Humans are social creatures and we have empathy. But that can also cloud our judgment sometimes. It's kinda easy to judge templars from our modern mindset and cozy, safe lives. And we have plenty of examples of real-life subjugation that we project onto the templars (regardless if it fits or not).
So yes. It is very easy to hate them and side with mages. Too easy.

But beyond necessary? Is it really? Kinda hard to judge given that we are put in the role of an invicilbe hero that never lost anythng due to a mage or abomination. And an abomination or mage never presents a real threat to us - in contrast to the lore. Is there really any wonder some people get a skewed impression of the danger of abominations?

***

Also, no one has defense from corruption. Mages are no exception. Overight was never good back then, and even today it didn't improve much.

You know I had a known drug dealer burst into my house with a hand grenade, threatening to kill my whole family. The guy lives in the house above mine and has an entire cabinet of records (literally) in the police. And I couldn't touch him.
My sisters husband was the chief prosecutor for the county and he couldn't touch him.
So corruption and "people getting away with it" doesn't surprise me.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

That explains it. I never go back to Calenhad after I save the Circle.

Redcliffe? Damn, I must really not be paying attention. Disregarding Wynne, Wilhelm, and Ines, Gregoir after Broken Circle says that the templars can't help because they have to watch the mages. The mages at Ostagar are under supervision, so I doubt the templars are far behind those fighting the Blight. Then again, no proof of that.
True, that overarching statement is certainly false, although I'd like to point out that few of these seem to be of the mage's own will.
Could you point me to where in Redcliffe? I want to make sure I don't miss it this time.

You don't?  But, how do you do the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest? o_o

If I recall correctly *.  I'm working my way there in my current playthrough.  But, if I recall, after you heal the Arl, there will be Mages there if you haven't annulled the Circle.  I will check again as soon as I get the chance to.

But yes, as for Ostagar, they are under "supervision", as in there are (like, all of two) Templar there, but they seem to be able to wander around as they please (the mage that Alistar is harassing doesn't have Templar surrounding him, Wynne is sort of just chilling around).

[BlazingSpeed]

ledod wrote...

Upon delving into the Dragon Age universe, one almost immediately encounters the following dictom of the Chantry:
"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him". (Or something very close in meaning)

Despite serving as the cardinal dogma of the Chantry, I fail to see any instance were the Chantry employs magic to improve the welfare of the common man. Instead, one sees the subjugation of mages, and the complete ostracization of magic from society at large.

Given that the theme of DA: I centers around the conflict between the chantry, and Circle Magi, are we, players, going to observe the Chantry's constuctive use of magic?

For example, I am suprised that there is no inclusion of healer-magi within the clergy. Additionally, one could entertain the notion that magic could help aid in agricultural blights, purification of water sources...?

QUESTION: Does anyone know when/where the Chantry provisions magi to disburden the plights of humanity?

I'm not sure if this has been said already but in the DAO codex the Chantry had mages lighting up candles in thier temples and only when the mages went on strike for about ten days the chantry agreed to let the mages form the circle groups.

So basic-ly Fiona was right...

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

That explains it. I never go back to Calenhad after I save the Circle.

Redcliffe? Damn, I must really not be paying attention. Disregarding Wynne, Wilhelm, and Ines, Gregoir after Broken Circle says that the templars can't help because they have to watch the mages. The mages at Ostagar are under supervision, so I doubt the templars are far behind those fighting the Blight. Then again, no proof of that.
True, that overarching statement is certainly false, although I'd like to point out that few of these seem to be of the mage's own will.
Could you point me to where in Redcliffe? I want to make sure I don't miss it this time.

You don't?  But, how do you do the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest? o_o

If I recall correctly *.  I'm working my way there in my current playthrough.  But, if I recall, after you heal the Arl, there will be Mages there if you haven't annulled the Circle.  I will check again as soon as I get the chance to.

But yes, as for Ostagar, they are under "supervision", as in there are (like, all of two) Templar there, but they seem to be able to wander around as they please (the mage that Alistar is harassing doesn't have Templar surrounding him, Wynne is sort of just chilling around).

Genetivi's house in Denerim, usually before the Arl of Redcliffe. I barge in, try to enter the back, kill Weylon and recover Genetivi's notes. Then I can head straight to Haven.

I usually heal him last, then head straight to Denerim for the Landsmeet.

Point taken, but they aren't watching their every move in the Circle either.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Those who fall have grown complacent, confident. Arrogance, as you said. But in doubting yourself every step...You may move more slowly, but you are far less likely to slip.
I'm not saying I will never fall. I watch my step. It's all I can do. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

You said that wisely.
But humans will be humans.
Even if you were the perfect human, you will never be alble to make them into perfect obedient clones.

All that everyone can do is try their best. Still, our best is sadly often not enough.

Very true.

Mages are capable of fighting..but how do you ensure that they would be there?
If mages are free to go where they like, they will be spread apart. How do you ensure there is a squad of templars nearby?

If there are 100 mages in the circle and you let them go free...now oyu have 100 potential abominatiosn and blood mages outside. Each going their separate way. You cannot know which one will fall... so what do you do?
Follow all of them?

Bob the mage becomes an abomination 50 kilometers from the town in the village of Hux.
50 Km is not far for our standards. Heck, lets make it 15km.

But without cars and phones - how long would it take for word of abomination attack to reach? How long till the respose comes? 15 km is spitting distance, and we're still looking at 1-2 hours. That is an eternity. The abomintion could kill the entire village and move on. By the time templars come, it's gone.

Also, a mage on the battlefield with demons is also a potential problem. Demons LOVE to corrupt mages. They like to hang out where the veil is thin.
Take a mage with you and you suddenly might find yourself fighting two abominations.

Humans are social creatures. I doubt a mage, who likely wouldn't be able to do much without close contact with society, since most of their skills would be magical, would settle so far from a town.
However, you do have a point. The mages that choose to settle away from major population centers would pose a potentially serious threat. But this is still the "rare" abomination.
In Broken Circle, "corruption" amounted to taking individual mages and torturing them. If the mage is hostile, and supported by templars, I highly doubt a demon would waste its time trying to deal with them.

Possibly. Harrowing is no guarantee at all, so I wouldn't call a "harrowed" mage more resistant at all.
But all of those mages would normally be inside the Circle, making them not a factor at all.

I never said more resistant, just less likely to be possessed. They had already fought off demons, the entire point of the Harrowing. The Circle and the Harrowing would still exist in my system.

Recent irl events make me think that you may be correct. I might just be an anomaly.
However, the Circle is a closed, monitored system. Surely it would be easier without external influences.

I wish you were right you know.
It would make life easier for a LOT of parents and maybe make a world a better place.
Or a worse one if bad parents do the moulding.

As for the Circle.
It's not as closed as you think. Mages interact with templars and other mages. Also visitors.
And once they go out you have 0 control over their future shaping.

If the moulding is done in the Circle, negative influences are migitated.
Are templars and other mages, who have only as much outside influence as them, going to tach a mage that self-serving is acceptable? I don't think so. Those mages and templars are part of that closed system. Corrupt templars would have to be dealt with, so that they don't have a negative impact on the mages.

After the Circle, their personality would be fairly stable, and their powers would enable them to change corrupting environments for the better, eliminating the long-term festering that is necessary to corrupt a good individual. It would not be foolproof, but no system is.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 novembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's easy to side with the underdog (mages). Humans are social creatures and we have empathy. But that can also cloud our judgment sometimes. It's kinda easy to judge templars from our modern mindset and cozy, safe lives. And we have plenty of examples of real-life subjugation that we project onto the templars (regardless if it fits or not).
So yes. It is very easy to hate them and side with mages. Too easy.

But beyond necessary? Is it really? Kinda hard to judge given that we are put in the role of an invicilbe hero that never lost anythng due to a mage or abomination. And an abomination or mage never presents a real threat to us - in contrast to the lore. Is there really any wonder some people get a skewed impression of the danger of abominations?

***

Also, no one has defense from corruption. Mages are no exception. Oversight was never good back then, and even today it didn't improve much.

You know I had a known drug dealer burst into my house with a hand grenade, threatening to kill my whole family. The guy lives in the house above mine and has an entire cabinet of records (literally) in the police. And I couldn't touch him.
My sister's husband was the chief prosecutor for the county and he couldn't touch him.
So corruption and "people getting away with it" doesn't surprise me.

I don't hate the templars...That's a lie. Alrik should rot in the Archdemon's belly. I don't hate most templars. They are doing as they are told and what they feel is best. I just think they should trust in what they have taught mages and let them help people.
The difference between gameplay and story is a serious problem. How much are abominations just another enemy and how often are they the city-destroying threats that the codex gives us. How often are they a dime-a-dozen as in-game and how often are they the rare calamity? We can't tell for certain. Most of this conversation is just conjecture.

I...how? Things like that cannot be allowed to happen. The system must change, but it takes a disaster to make that change. That's what the Circle has taken. But no one is willing to make the first move, to push against the grain. Why?
I think it amounts to a change in general mindset. I had no idea that things like that could happen. Most people probably don't. Same with the mages. Few will ever know how hard the mages in Broken Circle fought. Few will know of the good mages, because the abomnations overshadow it. People have to know.
Knowledge is power. Power is a means to control. When everyone has control, the good of the many will be served. That or we'll wind up killing ourselves, but civilization only exists because the general population put the good of the many over their own desires, so I have hope.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

That explains it. I never go back to Calenhad after I save the Circle.

You don't?  But, how do you do the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest? o_o

Genetivi's house in Denerim, usually before the Arl of Redcliffe. I barge in, try to enter the back, kill Weylon and recover Genetivi's notes. Then I can head straight to Haven.

This is a great thing about DAO.  There are many different ways to reach a destination.

Personally, I didn't know there was any path to the Sacred Ashes that passed through the Circle.

[Auintus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

That explains it. I never go back to Calenhad after I save the Circle.

You don't?  But, how do you do the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest? o_o

Genetivi's house in Denerim, usually before the Arl of Redcliffe. I barge in, try to enter the back, kill Weylon and recover Genetivi's notes. Then I can head straight to Haven.

This is a great thing about DAO.  There are many different ways to reach a destination.

Personally, I didn't know there was any path to the Sacred Ashes that passed through the Circle.

It's Lake Calenhad, not the tower itself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages are capable of fighting..but how do you ensure that they would be there?
If mages are free to go where they like, they will be spread apart. How do you ensure there is a squad of templars nearby?

If there are 100 mages in the circle and you let them go free...now oyu have 100 potential abominatiosn and blood mages outside. Each going their separate way. You cannot know which one will fall... so what do you do?
Follow all of them?

Bob the mage becomes an abomination 50 kilometers from the town in the village of Hux.
50 Km is not far for our standards. Heck, lets make it 15km.

But without cars and phones - how long would it take for word of abomination attack to reach? How long till the respose comes? 15 km is spitting distance, and we're still looking at 1-2 hours. That is an eternity. The abomintion could kill the entire village and move on. By the time templars come, it's gone.

Also, a mage on the battlefield with demons is also a potential problem. Demons LOVE to corrupt mages. They like to hang out where the veil is thin.
Take a mage with you and you suddenly might find yourself fighting two abominations.

Humans are social creatures. I doubt a mage, who likely wouldn't be able to do much without close contact with society, since most of their skills would be magical, would settle so far from a town.
However, you do have a point. The mages that choose to settle away from major population centers would pose a potentially serious threat. But this is still the "rare" abomination.

Remember than back in the old days, the majority of the human population wasn't in towns, but in villages.
So you'd have a LOT of villages spread around everywhere.

So mage either goes to a large town, one of the hunderds of villages or lives as a hermit in the forest.
Each comes with his own problems.

A smart abomination can easily hide in the town and do unprecedented amounts of damage. After all, it is sorounded by common folk on all sides. So many targets.

In a village, the death toll would be probably smaller, but so many villages are hard to patrol. You'd really have to have at least a squad of templars in every village.

A hermit mage is no immediate danger because there's no one near him - but it also menas that if he does dabble in blood magic of if he does become an abomination - no one will know. That same mag can terrorize the highways, move aroun, and by the time anyone figures out it is an abomination adn not some bandits...

In Broken Circle, "corruption" amounted to taking individual mages and
torturing them. If the mage is hostile, and supported by templars, I
highly doubt a demon would waste its time trying to deal with them.

We see quite a few abominations in the tower and the Warden does arrive there long after the whole thing started. Mages that were prone to fall (like Uldred) have already fallen.
Those mages we've see being tortured are the ones that managed to resist and so needed "extra encouragment".

I never said more resistant, just less likely to be possessed. They had already fought off demons, the entire point of the Harrowing. The Circle and the Harrowing would still exist in my system.

Less likely? Hmmm....
Wouldn't really bet on it.

If the moulding is done in the Circle, negative influences are migitated.
Are templars and other mages, who have only as much outside influence as them, going to tach a mage that self-serving is acceptable? I don't think so. Those mages and templars are part of that closed system. Corrupt templars would have to be dealt with, so that they don't have a negative impact on the mages.

So you start from the assumption that all mages and templars working in the tower will also be paragons of virtue and would impart only good things and traits on the mages?
And that you will be instantly able to detect corrupt members, or simply members who impart wrong ideas?
....

After the Circle, their personality would be fairly stable, and their powers would enable them to change corrupting environments for the better, eliminating the long-term festering that is necessary to corrupt a good individual. It would not be foolproof, but no system is.

Dreams. Nothing more than dreams.
Not only to you start with the idea of a perfectly closed system of perfect teaching and control, but to that you also add perfect moulding, mages resistant to any outside influence and ideas and mages magicly shaping the world and removing corruption....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
They are doing as they are told and what they feel is best. I just think they should trust in what they have taught mages and let them help people.

Erm..templars aren't teaching mages. Mages are teaching mages.

I...how? Things like that cannot be allowed to happen. The system must change, but it takes a disaster to make that change. That's what the Circle has taken. But no one is willing to make the first move, to push against the grain. Why?
I think it amounts to a change in general mindset. I had no idea that things like that could happen. Most people probably don't. Same with the mages. Few will ever know how hard the mages in Broken Circle fought. Few will know of the good mages, because the abomnations overshadow it. People have to know.

The illusion is that you can eliminate corruption. Heck, in a world like TheDas you can't even reduce it significantly.
Peoepl are flawed and resoruces are limited.

Lets say - hypotheticly - that a mage accuses a templar of rape. What do you do? How do you prove the templars guilt or innocence? CSI doesn't exist in TheDas.

Or let's say templars in the field killed an apostate they were hunting down. They were supposed to bring him in. The squad leader claims the mage in question resisted and attacked. How will you confirm this?

Let's say you order them that they HAVE to bring him in alive, regardless of risks. More templars start dying in the field. They resent you for that and start working behind your back (resenting mages even more).


Oh, one more thing - peopel do know of hte good magic can do. But thhe fallout does overshadow it.

After all, if you had a magical set of dice that give you riches, food and stuff every time you roll them, wouldn't you use them? Of course you would. Now how about if you roll a 1 you and your family dies? Would you use it now?

Knowledge is power. Power is a means to control. When everyone has control, the good of the many will be served. That or we'll wind up killing ourselves, but civilization only exists because the general population put the good of the many over their own desires, so I have hope.

Give everyone superpowers?
The result would be anarchy and a collapse.