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[Sylvius the Mad]

Auintus wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Genetivi's house in Denerim, usually before the Arl of Redcliffe. I barge in, try to enter the back, kill Weylon and recover Genetivi's notes. Then I can head straight to Haven.

This is a great thing about DAO.  There are many different ways to reach a destination.

Personally, I didn't know there was any path to the Sacred Ashes that passed through the Circle.

It's Lake Calenhad, not the tower itself.

Thus further demonstrating that I had no idea the route existed.

[TEWR]

Lets say - hypotheticly - that a mage accuses a templar of rape. What do you do? How do you prove the templars guilt or innocence? CSI doesn't exist in TheDas.

As I really don't feel like getting too heavily involved in this discussion at this point in time, here's something:

1) Mage brings it to the Knight-Commander in a private meeting and tells him who it is and, if he/she knows, when the Templar will be back. Assuming, of course, the KC isn't the one doing it in the first place. If the KC was the one doing it, it would go to other Templars that the Mage could trust -- like the Knight-Captain -- or alternatively as I've often proposed a contingent of Seekers. The Circles should always have a contingent of Seekers in them/near them, IMO. If the Mages are going to be watched, the Templars should be watched as well.

Though I've often wondered if the whole "Who watches the watchmen" concept ever has an end or if it could, theoretically, stretch on forever.

2) KC orders some of his Templars that he can trust to carry out his order to wait in a nearby Mage's quarters and tells the Mage to go on as if he hasn't informed any Templars about this. The Mage goes back to his quarters eventually.

3) If the Templar shows up and begins to move towards the Mage... then he's guilty. If the Templar doesn't show up on the few occasions the Templars are staking it out, then the KC may feel that the matter is best dropped unless new evidence is brought to light.

Essentially, they'd have to catch him in the act. And if they do, he's dismissed from the Order or sent on a dead-end hunt for apostates far away from the Circle.

Not sure if the Templars would be better served if they made the reason why one of their own was dismissed from the Order publicly known so as to say they won't tolerate it... or concealed it so their effectiveness at doing this wouldn't be weakened.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 novembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lets say - hypotheticly - that a mage accuses a templar of rape. What do you do? How do you prove the templars guilt or innocence? CSI doesn't exist in TheDas.

As I really don't feel like getting too heavily involved in this discussion at this point in time, here's something:

1) Mage brings it to the Knight-Commander in a private meeting and tells him who it is and, if he/she knows, when the Templar will be back. Assuming, of course, the KC isn't the one doing it in the first place. If the KC was the one doing it, it would go to other Templars that the Mage could trust -- like the Knight-Captain -- or alternatively as I've often proposed a contingent of Seekers. The Circles should always have a contingent of Seekers in them/near them, IMO. If the Mages are going to be watched, the Templars should be watched as well.

Though I've often wondered if the whole "Who watches the watchmen" concept ever has an end or if it could, theoretically, stretch on forever.

2) KC orders some of his Templars that he can trust to carry out his order to wait in a nearby Mage's quarters and tells the Mage to go on as if he hasn't informed any Templars about this. The Mage goes back to his quarters eventually.

3) If the Templar shows up and begins to move towards the Mage... then he's guilty. If the Templar doesn't show up on the few occasions the Templars are staking it out, then the KC may feel that the matter is best dropped unless new evidence is brought to light.

Essentially, they'd have to catch him in the act. And if they do, he's dismissed from the Order or sent on a dead-end hunt for apostates far away from the Circle.

Ahh.. and your example proves my point.
It's not easy to prove guilt in TheDas. You really have to catch him in the act. And if the person abusing power has any brains, it won't make it easy for you.
This holds true for templars, priests, lords, kings, nobles - anyone within any position of any power.

Also you have to wonder how many mages would bother reporting crimes or suspicions?

In other words, abuse doesn't happen because the templars don't do anything about it - it happens because there is not much they can do about it.

[Gtdef]

And what if a mage raped a templar? ;p

Personally I side with the mages in this conflict because this system is extremely flawed. Mages are not trained for combat so essentially they cant protect themselves (especially against an order that was made to hunt and contain them) unless they burn down the entire district or deal with demons. The world pushes them to extreme lengths and they become pretty much terrorists. So I think that for this conflict to be resolved it will be the "give them something to live for" route and I'm expecting to see it in DA3. Allow them to start families (with regulations perhaps) and see their parents, give them combat training or employ them as healers.

On the other hand mages just cant be free like "common folk". They by definition cant deal with the every day emotions like anger and jealousy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gtdef wrote...

And what if a mage raped a templar? ;p

You'd have the exact same problem of evidence.

Personally I side with the mages in this conflict because this system is extremely flawed. Mages are not trained for combat so essentially they cant protect themselves (especially against an order that was made to hunt and contain them) unless they burn down the entire district or deal with demons.

Mages are quire proficient in combat. Spell combat.
Hell, we see mages in DA:O being trained in defensive shield and fireballs.

The world pushes them to extreme lengths and they become pretty much terrorists. So I think that for this conflict to be resolved it will be the "give them something to live for" route and I'm expecting to see it in DA3. Allow them to start families (with regulations perhaps) and see their parents, give them combat training or employ them as healers.

Mages don't have it as bad as many claim.
They aren't really any more opressed than any other commoner.

I'd like to point out that roughly half of the mages voted for staying with the Chantry even AFTER all the incidents that were deliberately engeneered to push them into separating.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'd like to point out that roughly half of the mages voted for staying with the Chantry even AFTER all the incidents that were deliberately engeneered to push them into separating.

We don't know their motives for that. There are a million reasons for anyone, mage or templar, to try and avoid the conflict.  Fear is probably a pretty common one, on both sides.  Few people are like Anders, Meredith, and (possibly) mage Hawke, 100% committed to a cause and willing to die--and kill--for it.  Maybe others really were loyal to the Chantry.  Still more could be worried about collateral damage.

 Not wanting to fight the Chantry does not equate to a ringing endorsement of that system.  But it certainly isn't a ringing endorsement for violent mage revolution either.

[Halberd96]

According to Duncan the Chantry in Ferelden didn't give as much Mage support as he would have liked to fight the Darkspawn in Ostagar. My bet is that the Chantry at least in Ferelden and definitely in Kirkwall are too afraid to let the Mages out of the Circles.

Starting from the end of Dragon Age 3 with Varric being let go by Cassandra the Mages are at the brink of war. With who I'm not sure, most likely the Templars and the Chantry but there has been ambiguity to this I remember David Gaider saying that it was more complicated than just that so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

It makes sense that after all that has happened regarding the Mages in DA:O and DA 2 there will be powerful people and factions that will want to genocide the Mages. I wonder how the different nations of Thedas and all the common people will react to all this. I hope Bioware doesn't disappoint.

Modifié par Halberd96, 12 novembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Remember than back in the old days, the majority of the human population wasn't in towns, but in villages.
So you'd have a LOT of villages spread around everywhere.

So mage either goes to a large town, one of the hunderds of villages or lives as a hermit in the forest.
Each comes with his own problems.

A smart abomination can easily hide in the town and do unprecedented amounts of damage. After all, it is sorounded by common folk on all sides. So many targets.

In a village, the death toll would be probably smaller, but so many villages are hard to patrol. You'd really have to have at least a squad of templars in every village.

A hermit mage is no immediate danger because there's no one near him - but it also menas that if he does dabble in blood magic of if he does become an abomination - no one will know. That same mag can terrorize the highways, move aroun, and by the time anyone figures out it is an abomination adn not some bandits...

Even a small village like Lothering had templars. If they were supported by free mages, they could probably take your average abomination. If it's a really powerful one...we're in trouble.

We see quite a few abominations in the tower and the Warden does arrive there long after the whole thing started. Mages that were prone to fall (like Uldred) have already fallen.
Those mages we've see being tortured are the ones that managed to resist and so needed "extra encouragment".

It sounded(to me) like they'd been at it a while. I thought there was a small group that fell quickly and the most of them were turned over time.

So you start from the assumption that all mages and templars working in the tower will also be paragons of virtue and would impart only good things and traits on the mages?
And that you will be instantly able to detect corrupt members, or simply members who impart wrong ideas?
....

No, the Circles are abolished. They'd have to be restarted anyway. Perfect time to make sure that the faculty is up to par. There are no paragons of virtue, but I doubt an enchanter could get away with teaching that mages are a master race or teaching blood magic or anything of the like. The Circle would still be watched.

Dreams. Nothing more than dreams.
Not only to you start with the idea of a perfectly closed system of perfect teaching and control, but to that you also add perfect moulding, mages resistant to any outside influence and ideas and mages magicly shaping the world and removing corruption....

Not perfect by any means. The Circle as it is shows that most mages are good. Any well-raised individual would have to be among corrupting influences for some time before being tainted. Someone with the power of a mage would fix the problem before they were corrupted, most of the time. Again, not foolproof.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Erm..templars aren't teaching mages. Mages are teaching mages.

Templars are watching, and mages can be good too.

The illusion is that you can eliminate corruption. Heck, in a world like TheDas you can't even reduce it significantly.
Peoepl are flawed and resoruces are limited.

Lets say - hypotheticly - that a mage accuses a templar of rape. What do you do? How do you prove the templars guilt or innocence? CSI doesn't exist in TheDas.

Or let's say templars in the field killed an apostate they were hunting down. They were supposed to bring him in. The squad leader claims the mage in question resisted and attacked. How will you confirm this?

Let's say you order them that they HAVE to bring him in alive, regardless of risks. More templars start dying in the field. They resent you for that and start working behind your back (resenting mages even more).


Oh, one more thing - peopel do know of hte good magic can do. But thhe fallout does overshadow it.

After all, if you had a magical set of dice that give you riches, food and stuff every time you roll them, wouldn't you use them? Of course you would. Now how about if you roll a 1 you and your family dies? Would you use it now?

An individual is corrupted, an institution is corrupted. But in corruption, the few benefit at the cost of the many. The many cannot be corrupted, because not everyone can benefit. An entire society is not corrupt.

...Blood magic? Control your damn templars? They're already drugged, shouldn't be hard to condition them to...wait, that would be bad.
Never give an order to bring someone alive at any cost. That's a bad villain's plot. It should always be "take them alive is reasonably possible." Sometimes they would just have to be put down.

They really don't. They can't. The only mages outside the Circle are apostates and blood mages, and most apostates would be worried about the templars to bother helping anyone else.

Depends. Do those dice involve taking something from someone else?
Add the "1" metaphor and no, but that's not quite how magic works. It's about focus and control. It's not a roll of the dice.

Give everyone superpowers?
The result would be anarchy and a collapse.

I was talking political power actually.

Modifié par Auintus, 12 novembre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Auintus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This is a great thing about DAO.  There are many different ways to reach a destination.

Personally, I didn't know there was any path to the Sacred Ashes that passed through the Circle.

It's Lake Calenhad, not the tower itself.

Thus further demonstrating that I had no idea the route existed.

 Point taken.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Even a small village like Lothering had templars. If they were supported by free mages, they could probably take your average abomination. If it's a really powerful one...we're in trouble.

You really think that every village in TheDas has a squad of templars?
Lolno.
Bigger villages...mabye.
Lothering was really a special circumstance, as the soldiers were gone and refugees were pouring in. Quite possible aditional templars were sent there to help. IIRC, the templar there complains there aren't enough templars to go around.

It sounded(to me) like they'd been at it a while. I thought there was a small group that fell quickly and the most of them were turned over time.

Well, I can't really comment on the ratio.. we just don't know.
But it is logical to assumed that te weak ones gave in immediately (or deliberately) and the rest of the mages resisted, with more falling (or dying...abominations were also killing mages) over time.

No, the Circles are abolished. They'd have to be restarted anyway. Perfect time to make sure that the faculty is up to par. There are no paragons of virtue, but I doubt an enchanter could get away with teaching that mages are a master race or teaching blood magic or anything of the like. The Circle would still be watched.

You don't need extreeme ideas to get a extreeme personality/worldview change.
Lots of little things. Seeds..ideas..influences.

Not perfect by any means. The Circle as it is shows that most mages are good. Any well-raised individual would have to be among corrupting influences for some time before being tainted. Someone with the power of a mage would fix the problem before they were corrupted, most of the time. Again, not foolproof.

No, mages wouldn't "fix the problem". That's just it.
I don't know where you got the idea that mages could detect and get rid of corruption. If they could, there wouldn't be abominations or blood mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
An individual is corrupted, an institution is corrupted. But in corruption, the few benefit at the cost of the many. The many cannot be corrupted, because not everyone can benefit. An entire society is not corrupt.

I don't see what this has got to do with anything.

Never give an order to bring someone alive at any cost. That's a bad villain's plot. It should always be "take them alive is reasonably possible." Sometimes they would just have to be put down.

Ahh...but he issue with what is "reasonably possible" is left for the officer in the field.
That's the problem with delegation.

They really don't. They can't. The only mages outside the Circle are apostates and blood mages, and most apostates would be worried about the templars to bother helping anyone else.

But they do.
Mages go get occasionaly used as healers and for all other stuff. People know that magic can do great stuff.
They've seen it. They've heard of it.

Depends. Do those dice involve taking something from someone else?
Add the "1" metaphor and no, but that's not quite how magic works. It's about focus and control. It's not a roll of the dice.

It's a good metaphor, since you don't know when a mage will roll a 1.
And a person is not fully in control of himself. Outside factors can influence ones mental state...in some people more than in others.
Weather is known to cause waves of depression big enough to cause a spike in suicides. Drinking and drugs can totally throw a spanner in your behavior. Even extreeme emotional situations.

I was talking political power actually.

How exactly would a system where everyone has equal political power work?
Everyone is king?

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You really think that every village in TheDas has a squad of templars?
Lolno.
Bigger villages...mabye.
Lothering was really a special circumstance, as the soldiers were gone and refugees were pouring in. Quite possible aditional templars were sent there to help. IIRC, the templar there complains there aren't enough templars to go around.

Why'd you cap the "d" in Thedas?
Hmm...maybe, but I've never seen a Chantry without templars, and I've never seen a village without a Chantry, 'cept Haven, but I don't think that counts. Maybe we just haven't seen enough of the world.

Well, I can't really comment on the ratio.. we just don't know.
But it is logical to assumed that te weak ones gave in immediately (or deliberately) and the rest of the mages resisted, with more falling (or dying...abominations were also killing mages) over time.

A group of apprentices avoided possession, though that could be lack of interest on the part of the demons or Wynne's influence, so "weak ones" is kind of an off arguement. Though if I remember right, Uldred already had some mages supporting him, didn't he? I think Niall said something of the sort.

You don't need extreeme ideas to get a extreeme personality/worldview change.
Lots of little things. Seeds..ideas..influences.

True, but change happens faster with extreme ideas, and, in the end, usually winds up in a more moderate stance than either side. That's what I'm hoping for in DA3. Also, Anders already sparked it. Might as well use it.

No, mages wouldn't "fix the problem". That's just it.
I don't know where you got the idea that mages could detect and get rid of corruption. If they could, there wouldn't be abominations or blood mages.

I meant social corruption. An area of the slums where a Carta-like group are running extortions, for example.
Magical corruption is usually the result of demons whispering, something the Harrowing is suppose to help mages recognize.
Also, most abominations, at least in DA2 where we see a few abominations born, seem to come from apprentices or mages faced with templars.

Modifié par Auintus, 13 novembre 2012 - 04:26 .

[Auintus]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't see what this has got to do with anything.[/quote]

Elimanating corruption. Corruption is instituted by those with a measure of control or power. Diffuse that power throughout the population and no one would stand for corruption because someone would have to pay for it.
I can't rememer why I got on that topic though. Something about mages and the public, I think.

[quote]

Ahh...but he issue with what is "reasonably possible" is left for the officer in the field.
That's the problem with delegation.[/quote]

Point taken. We'd just have to judge and train templars as well as the mages then.

[quote]

But they do.
Mages go get occasionaly used as healers and for all other stuff. People know that magic can do great stuff.
They've seen it. They've heard of it.[/quote]

And yet Meredith took the fanatic's view after a single incident with an abomination. It comes down to degree. Few people see the good work of a mage, because they're mostly in the tower. Far more see the work of evil mages, or abominations, because they're in the open. Hardly a fair measure.

[quote]

It's a good metaphor, since you don't know when a mage will roll a 1.
And a person is not fully in control of himself. Outside factors can influence ones mental state...in some people more than in others.
Weather is known to cause waves of depression big enough to cause a spike in suicides. Drinking and drugs can totally throw a spanner in your behavior. Even extreeme emotional situations.[/quote]

Magic isn't rolling a die. It's focus and control of your power.
If trained well enough, they can. 'Course that usually takes longer than the average mage's apprenticeship, but there is enough time to teach a reasonable measure of control.
I think a mage would be smart enough not to drink or use drugs. That could end very badly.

[quote]
I was talking political power actually.
[/quote]

How exactly would a system where everyone has equal political power work?
Everyone is king?

[/quote]

Yessssssss.
No. There is only a limited amount of political power. If everyone is king, you overclock that budget.
The point comes around to the fact that the common folk need a say in the government. Therefore, the common folk need to know what is going on so they can have an educated say.
Only the Chantry has a say as to how the Circles work. Them and the templars. Both have been set against the mages for centuries. If the common folk knew what was happening to mages in the Circles, and could actually do something about it? I doubt they would approve of the current system. They would likely not advocate complete freedom, but they'd be judging the templars pretty harshly too. Thus, reform. And compromise.

[WazzuMan]

When I started DAO for the first time, I chose the mage origin. After hearing all about the Circles and Templars, I knew this rebellion was inevitable. I mean, being taken away from your parents and sealed away in a tower for the best years of your life are bound to make you resentful. It's the kind of environment that creates people like Anders and Uldred. Eventually the worst of the circles would enter a point where it only needed one act to start the fire.

Hopefully it leads to a better place, but there will definitely be casualities on all sides, including innocents.

Modifié par WazzuMan, 13 novembre 2012 - 05:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, mages wouldn't "fix the problem". That's just it.
I don't know where you got the idea that mages could detect and get rid of corruption. If they could, there wouldn't be abominations or blood mages.

I meant social corruption. An area of the slums where a Carta-like group are running extortions, for example.
Magical corruption is usually the result of demons whispering, something the Harrowing is suppose to help mages recognize.

I don't see how mages are supposed to stop social corruption, when they themselves are corruptable in more ways than one.

But they do.
Mages go get occasionaly used as healers and for all other stuff. People know that magic can do great stuff.
They've seen it. They've heard of it.

And yet Meredith took the fanatic's view after a single incident with an
abomination. It comes down to degree. Few people see the good work of a
mage, because they're mostly in the tower. Far more see the work of
evil mages, or abominations, because they're in the open. Hardly a fair
measure.

Meredith is a bad example. For one, her beloved sister was a mage and she is a Knight-Commander. She knows more about magic than almost everyone. And she actually doesn't hate mages at all.

As for mages - if mages wwere freee they would be seeing a lot more of that evil. Obviously, before the Circles peoepl were seeing mages in all of their glory. And still thought Circles were a good idea.

It's a good metaphor, since you don't know when a mage will roll a 1.
And
a person is not fully in control of himself. Outside factors can
influence ones mental state...in some people more than in others.
Weather
is known to cause waves of depression big enough to cause a spike in
suicides. Drinking and drugs can totally throw a spanner in your
behavior. Even extreeme emotional situations.

Magic isn't rolling a die. It's focus and control of your power.
If
trained well enough, they can. 'Course that usually takes longer than
the average mage's apprenticeship, but there is enough time to teach a
reasonable measure of control.
I think a mage would be smart enough not to drink or use drugs. That could end very badly.

Honestly, I wonder why I keep bothering with you when you insist on this fantasy of perfect self-control and perfect education.
It won't happen. Neither will total absitinence.
Humanity has been trying to achieve that since the dawn of man. Neither psychologists or sociologists managed to do anything about it.
And you think you have some perfect method?

No. There is only a limited amount of political power. If everyone is king, you overclock that budget.
The
point comes around to the fact that the common folk need a say in the
government. Therefore, the common folk need to know what is going on so
they can have an educated say.

In other words, you want to just put in democracy in a medieval world?
Yeah...that will end well .
And by "well" I mean "big, bloody disaster"

Only the Chantry has a say as to how the Circles work. Them and the
templars. Both have been set against the mages for centuries. If the
common folk knew what was happening to mages in the Circles, and could
actually do something about it? I doubt they would approve of the
current system. They would likely not advocate complete freedom, but
they'd be judging the templars pretty harshly too. Thus, reform. And
compromise.

You think they dont' know.
OR don't approve.

Why would they care?
From the POV of an average pesant, mages have a better life than him and still all they do is complain.

[thibaut72]

About corruption, i agree with Lotion Soronnar, nobody can erase corruption, as it's not possible to forget that men (mage or not) have weakness. I can not be always in accord with LS (and sorry if i mean too aggressive:P), in this point, he is true.

I read a lot about what DG said about magic, Circles and the templars, as well as the history in Thedas :
- mage are not free, even if they are not slave
- mage are use for the purpose of the Chantry, even if the Chantry/templars say that they first want to protect the public.
- we often (everyone) talk with conjecture and supposition, or interpretation of what we can find here or here.

After, we can only make choice with our feelings. I personnaly think we can do something better for mages, we can't blame them because they are born with the gift of magic.
Mages CAN (that is different than ARE) be dangerous because of the weakness of the human mind, and templar CAN interprete the Chant of Light for their own purpose. The fact is that laws inside the circles are not the same in each circles.

- Must the templar let their independancy for the circle and focus their duty on search of abomination or maleficar ? maybe
- Can we let the willing mages to travel everywhere in Thedas, and so, need more templar ? I opt for this choice.
- Do we need more radical choice ? I can't believe, as human being, in this.

Modifié par thibaut72, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Auintus]

thibaut72, I appreciate what you are trying to do. I agree with your statement in almost every regard. The thing is: I like arguing with Soronnar. It's entertaining.
Like you said, almost everything is conjecture. This discussion will never really amount to anything, it's just cheap entertainment.
Then you had to go and bring rationality into this. Fun's over, we're going home.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
- Must the templar let their independancy for the circle and focus their duty on search of abomination or maleficar ? maybe

If they did that, they wouldn't be doing their jobs right.

- Can we let the willing mages to travel everywhere in Thedas, and so, need more templar ? I opt for this choice.

Except this option makes TheDas less safes and requires higher taxes and people won't like either. Sadly.

- Do we need more radical choice ? I can't believe, as human being, in this.

Mages are a radical problem and they require radical solutions. The Circles already are there. I don't really think you need any thing more radical.


*****

And for those complaining that the cirlce is a prison - remeber that Meridith, at the end of DA2, wanted to perform a tower search from top to bottom and that was a considered a extreeme stop - by both Orsino AND her.
Mages have no privacy whatsoever? Proven wrong.
Mages are worse off than in prisons? You think prisoners get to protest a cell search?

[TEWR]

And she actually doesn't hate mages at all

She does. She says they're cursed -- which they are, sort of, but she fails to also throw in the gift part that Gregoir is smart enough to realize -- and stupid, and by Act 3 she's giddy at the thought of slaughtering the Mages.

And then making a new Circle that will "know fear".

In addition, she authorized death squads to go out and kill Mage sympathizers. The third person omniscient journal tells us that Meredith did, in fact, authorize a death squad that consisted of zealots she hand picked.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And she actually doesn't hate mages at all

She does. She says they're cursed -- which they are, sort of, but she fails to also throw in the gift part that Gregoir is smart enough to realize -- and stupid, and by Act 3 she's giddy at the thought of slaughtering the Mages.

No, she doesn't.

Take a good look at the scene before Anders blows up the Chatnry - with her and Orisno arguing at the stairs.
She neither sound or act like a mage hater, despite all the mindf***ery the lyrium did to her.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

thibaut72 wrote...
- Must the templar let their independancy for the circle and focus their duty on search of abomination or maleficar ? maybe

If they did that, they wouldn't be doing their jobs right.

Their job is to protect civilian and hunt maleficar, not to watch mages

- Can we let the willing mages to travel everywhere in Thedas, and so, need more templar ? I opt for this choice.

Except this option makes TheDas less safes and requires higher taxes and people won't like either. Sadly.

Except that mage can pay this taxes ! (if mage want more freedom, they need give something in return)
And less safe, i can't think this :
if there was more abomination before the creation of the circle, it's not because of the circles that there is less abomination (even if there is an influence)

- Do we need more radical choice ? I can't believe, as human being, in this.

Mages are a radical problem and they require radical solutions. The Circles already are there. I don't really think you need any thing more radical.
*****
And for those complaining that the cirlce is a prison - remeber that Meridith, at the end of DA2, wanted to perform a tower search from top to bottom and that was a considered a extreeme stop - by both Orsino AND her.
Mages have no privacy whatsoever? Proven wrong.
Mages are worse off than in prisons? You think prisoners get to protest a cell search?

Nothing good happen with radicalism.
If mages are not free, it doesn't mean that they are in prison (or a golden prison, as we can say with Wynne in DAO).
Meredith, in act 3, always talk with absolute, and think that her actions are always the right things to do. But she don't want compromises and Chantry's (Elthina's) negociation (the last straw). In that way, she is like Ander ! Anders think that mages are prisoners, and Mededict act like a jailer !!! I don't think they are good choice to solve the problem !

Modifié par thibaut72, 14 novembre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...
Their job is to protect civilian and hunt maleficar, not to watch mages

Actually, all of that is their job.
And they protect civilians BY watching mages.

Except that mage can pay this taxes ! (if mage want more freedom, they need give something in return)

Can they pay all of it? We're talking about A LOT of templars. REALLY a lot.

And less safe, i can't think this :
if there was more abomination before the creation of the circle, it's not because of the circles that there is less abomination (even if there is an influence)

What else has changed?
There is no denying that abominations in the Circles means less abominations outside. Which means less danger outside. And outside is where the civlians are at.

Meredith, in act 3, always talk with absolute, and think that her actions are always the right things to do. But she don't want compromises and Chantry's (Elthina's) negociation (the last straw). In that way, she is like Ander ! Anders think that mages are prisoners, and Mededict act like a jailer !!! I don't think they are good choice to solve the problem !

Take a look at this:


Meredith wants to conduct a full search the tower for blood mages. Do you think that unreasonable given how many blood mages are around?
Orsino protests, considering it a gross vialotion of mage rights. A simple search.
Orsino is clearly afraid she'll find something.
And Meredith clearly expresses regret that she has to do it.
She is begging Hawke for another solution. He/she doesn't give her any. Neither does Orsino.

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually, all of that is their job.
And they protect civilians BY watching mages.

They can do this but it's not their priority (watching mages)!

Can they pay all of it? We're talking about A LOT of templars. REALLY a lot.

The problem is that we don't know how many templar is need to look after a mage (1 for 1, 5 for 1?)
In theory, 1 templar is enough to take over a mage, and not all mage (a minority in fact) will become abomination. But it also exist some place in Thedas where the veil is thin = place where it's more easy for mage to become abomination. So to quantify how many templar is needed, is difficult.

What else has changed?
There is no denying that abominations in the Circles means less abominations outside. Which means less danger outside. And outside is where the civlians are at.

I can also say, "it was more dangerous before" is not equivalent to: it's more quite after because of the templar/chantry/circles

Meredith wants to conduct a full search the tower for blood mages. Do you think that unreasonable given how many blood mages are around?
Orsino protests, considering it a gross vialotion of mage rights. A simple search.
Orsino is clearly afraid she'll find something.
And Meredith clearly expresses regret that she has to do it.
She is begging Hawke for another solution. He/she doesn't give her any. Neither does Orsino.

it's a violation of privacy : If police come and want to inspect your home, will you agree (if not a decision of justice)? As i said, mage are not free, but as you said, they have some privacy life ! When i said Meredith and Anders speak with absolute, it's also true with Orsino. But Meredith can't prove that this mage is a blood mage, and this one is not. And in case of search in the circle, i m sure that she will find some books about blood magic or necromancy. This books are not forbidden by the Chantry (but the practice is not tolerate). For you, if she find those books, don't you think she ll annule the circle ?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]thibaut72 wrote...
The problem is that we don't know how many templar is need to look after a mage (1 for 1, 5 for 1?)
In theory, 1 templar is enough to take over a mage, and not all mage (a minority in fact) will become abomination. But it also exist some place in Thedas where the veil is thin = place where it's more easy for mage to become abomination. So to quantify how many templar is needed, is difficult.[/quote]

You'd need a squad of templars per mage (at least), because you don't know WHICH mage will turn into an abomiantion.


[quote]
[quote]What else has changed?
There is no denying that abominations in the Circles means less abominations outside. Which means less danger outside. And outside is where the civlians are at.[/quote]
I can also say, "it was more dangerous before" is not equivalent to: it's more quite after because of the templar/chantry/circles [/quote]

You can, but it wouldn't be correct.
The context of the qustion was very clear..as is the danger of abominations.


[quoteg
[quote]Meredith wants to conduct a full search the tower for blood mages. Do you think that unreasonable given how many blood mages are around?
Orsino protests, considering it a gross vialotion of mage rights. A simple search.
Orsino is clearly afraid she'll find something.
And Meredith clearly expresses regret that she has to do it.
She is begging Hawke for another solution. He/she doesn't give her any. Neither does Orsino.[/quote]

it's a violation of privacy : If police come and want to inspect your home, will you agree (if not a decision of justice)? As i said, mage are not free, but as you said, they have some privacy life ! When i said Meredith and Anders speak with absolute, it's also true with Orsino. But Meredith can't prove that this mage is a blood mage, and this one is not. And in case of search in the circle, i m sure that she will find some books about blood magic or necromancy. This books are not forbidden by the Chantry (but the practice is not tolerate). For you, if she find those books, don't you think she ll annule the circle ?
[/quote]

The police can perform a search of your house with or wihout your consent as long as they have a warrant.

How else would you go about finding blood mages then searching? It is clear that there are some blood mages in the Circle, and "do nothing" is not an answer. So no, it's not unreasonable in the slightest. The only one being unreasonable and histerical is Orsino.

And those books are RESTRICTED. Only a few mages are ever allowed to read about it. Also, there's more to finding out blood mages than just a book. A search might yield ritual components, blood or incriminating correspondence (Orsino?)