817 réponses à ce sujet

[thibaut72]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You'd need a squad of templars per mage (at least), because you don't know WHICH mage will turn into an abomiantion.

Indeed, but in your country, a squad is how many ? 4 to 8 in mine.
In fact, you don't need watch all mage, but be here when one become an abomination, it's different. As i said, the first job of templar is not to watch mage, but to protect !

What else has changed?
There is no denying that
abominations in the Circles means less abominations outside. Which means
less danger outside. And outside is where the civlians are at.

I
can also say, "it was more dangerous before" is not equivalent to: it's
more quite after because of the templar/chantry/circles

You can, but it wouldn't be correct.
The context of the qustion was very clear..as is the danger of abominations.

My sentence is correct ; as yours !  it's just our interpretation of the history which is different ! As well as the utility of the circles !

The police can perform a search of your house with or wihout your consent as long as they have a warrant.

Not in my country ! Or they need a judicial act, or some rare case (terrorism)

How else would you go about finding blood mages then searching? It is clear that there are some blood mages in the Circle, and "do nothing" is not an answer. So no, it's not unreasonable in the slightest. The only one being unreasonable and histerical is Orsino.
And those books are RESTRICTED. Only a few mages are ever allowed to read about it. Also, there's more to finding out blood mages than just a book. A search might yield ritual components, blood or incriminating correspondence (Orsino?)

You like thinking in absolute, don't you ?
I m not against the search in itself, but i don't think she ll find a blood mage doing blood magic in the circle (or a stupid one!). To find a blood mage, you need see him using it (spell or specific ritual forbidden by the Chantry, ...)! After, maybe there is some evidence of pratice. We know, as player, that Orsino practice blood magic, and exchange letters with Quentin, but Meredith don't !
For me, Meredith need go and see Elthina and ask for a search in the circle, because she have some suspicion (or intuition) ; that's the right thing to do ! Even she's the Templar-Commander, she is not the chief or the representant of the Chantry who rules the circle in Kirkwall. Her status is different than Gregoir (there is no Chantry).
For the books, we are together on the same line, they are restricted as we can see in Ferelden Tower.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thibaut72 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You'd need a squad of templars per mage (at least), because you don't know WHICH mage will turn into an abomiantion.

Indeed, but in your country, a squad is how many ? 4 to 8 in mine.
In fact, you don't need watch all mage, but be here when one become an abomination, it's different. As i said, the first job of templar is not to watch mage, but to protect !

Given that cannoicly an abomonation is powerfull enough to destroy a dozen tempalrs and smaller armies, 8 templars would not cut it.
In order to properly police hte country with all mages free, half the country would have to be templars.

And don't you get it? That high number is needed EXACTLY because you don't know where an abomination will pop up when all mages are free.
Mage Bob in Lothering? Mage Fred in Starkhaven? Mage Ross in the hamlet of Grille? You don't know.
So you need a suffient number of templars to take down a powerfull abomination near every mage.

My sentence is correct ; as yours !  it's just our interpretation of the history which is different ! As well as the utility of the circles !

There is nothing to interpret.
The context of the question and Gaiders response was clear.

You might as well argue that if I ask David what time it is, and he answered 12, that he wasn't referring to the time, but rather to the number of dollars in his pocket. Redicolous.

How else would you go about finding blood mages then searching? It is clear that there are some blood mages in the Circle, and "do nothing" is not an answer. So no, it's not unreasonable in the slightest. The only one being unreasonable and histerical is Orsino.
And those books are RESTRICTED. Only a few mages are ever allowed to read about it. Also, there's more to finding out blood mages than just a book. A search might yield ritual components, blood or incriminating correspondence (Orsino?)

You like thinking in absolute, don't you ?
I m not against the search in itself, but i don't think she ll find a blood mage doing blood magic in the circle (or a stupid one!). To find a blood mage, you need see him using it (spell or specific ritual forbidden by the Chantry, ...)! After, maybe there is some evidence of pratice. We know, as player, that Orsino practice blood magic, and exchange letters with Quentin, but Meredith don't !

Nope, I don't think in absolutes. I think in reasonables.
What, you really think there is no contact between mages in the city and the circle? That there are no mages in the Circle? Hell, we run into evidence of it ALL OVER THE GAME.
Meredith isn't acting out of spite. It is a reasonable course of action.

For me, Meredith need go and see Elthina and ask for a search in the circle, because she have some suspicion (or intuition) ; that's the right thing to do ! Even she's the Templar-Commander, she is not the chief or the representant of the Chantry who rules the circle in Kirkwall. Her status is different than Gregoir (there is no Chantry).
For the books, we are together on the same line, they are restricted as we can see in Ferelden Tower.

I don't think Meredith needs Elthinas permission for a search. Why would she? She is the Knight-Commander in charge of the Circle.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, she doesn't.

Take a good look at the scene before Anders blows up the Chatnry - with her and Orisno arguing at the stairs.
She neither sound or act like a mage hater, despite all the mindf***ery the lyrium did to her.

I have.

What I have done is protect you Mages from your curse and your own stupidity!

You will NOT bring Her Grace into this!

Yeah, she's insulting the Mages and saying that Elthina will have no say in this matter. Elthina's been the one who has been trying to mediate the disputes between them and as we learn from Sebastian and Aveline, Meredith has begun ignoring the Grand Cleric's advice. In fact, she's ignoring all of the Chantry's advice.

Add into that authorizing death squads consisting of her "hand-picked zealots tasked with 'purging' Mage-sympathizers" and I'd say she hates Mages a great deal. And the possibility that she has, in fact, investigated the City Guard under some premise that some of them are secret Mages also adds to that, if true -- as it comes from Anders' mouth, and he could've just been lying about that to make Aveline be less likely to support Meredith.

Hell, not allowing Huon to see his wife in visits for 10 years? Literally dragging him away in chains? Promoting Templars with extreme views on Mages -- Karras, Cullen, Alrik, etc. -- and tacitly supporting Alrik's plan if not outright doing so unofficially?

Note: Cullen's a moderate amongst Kirkwall's Order, but his views regarding the Mages are extreme as his codex tells us. And Alrik's plan was either supported by her incompetence as a Knight-Commander... or by her telling him to go through with it but refusing to officially support it.

And the former's the more likely of the two, if Ser Alrik's Letter to Divine Justinia V is any indication.

Yeah, kinda hard to say she doesn't hate mages. Her shifting from a tone of condescension, anger, irateness, and bitterness into one consisting of "This sucks, but it must be done" and then going straight back to the former seems to be the lyrium idol at work.

Since we also see it do that in her endgame battle, where she's going "I'm right, I'm right! But what if I'm not? What if I'm the one at fault? No! I'm right, I'm right!"

At the very least, she doesn't care about them at all as people. If she did, she would've actually done her job regarding Alrik.

[BlueMagitek]

^ Well, as we see with Grand Enchanter O aiding in the research of frankenbodies and turning into a Harvester while winning, I don't think it is unfair to claim that there is stupidity amongst the mages at Kirkwall. >.>

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, she doesn't.

Take a good look at the scene before Anders blows up the Chatnry - with her and Orisno arguing at the stairs.
She neither sound or act like a mage hater, despite all the mindf***ery the lyrium did to her.

I have.

What I have done is protect you Mages from your curse and your own stupidity!

You will NOT bring Her Grace into this!

Yeah, she's insulting the Mages and saying that Elthina will have no say in this matter. Elthina's been the one who has been trying to mediate the disputes between them and as we learn from Sebastian and Aveline, Meredith has begun ignoring the Grand Cleric's advice. In fact, she's ignoring all of the Chantry's advice.

Nope. Nice try tough.
Ironicly, she is completely right. That is what she is doing. And a few harsher words in an argument don't mean hate.

There is no reason to bring Elthina into this. Like I said - it is just a tower search. Given the escalating blood mage activity, ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.


We see her PLEEDING with a CRYING VOICE.
Her own words are:
"It breaks my heart to do this" - a Friggin tower search! Would a true mage hater care at all how mages feel? Would a true mage hater bother to ask for another way? Would a true mage hater almost cry?
Hell no.

Hell, not allowing Huon to see his wife in visits for 10 years? Literally dragging him away in chains? Promoting Templars with extreme views on Mages -- Karras, Cullen, Alrik, etc. -- and tacitly supporting Alrik's plan if not outright doing so unofficially?

I'd like to see you prove that.

Yeah, kinda hard to say she doesn't hate mages.

Not at all.

Her shifting from a tone of condescension, anger, irateness, and bitterness into one consisting of "This sucks, but it must be done" and then going straight back to the former seems to be the lyrium idol at work.

Wait - so you assume that the lyrium is doing the opposite? That the sympathy is the cause of the idol and not the other way around?
Even tough we hear peoepl talk she was becoming STRICTER over time (meaning that the more sympathetic personality IS the real one).

At the very least, she doesn't care about them at all as people. If she did, she would've actually done her job regarding Alrik.

Uteer, complete, total bullcrap.
"Done her job?"
You even prove she knew about it.

The harshest thing we see her do (at the end of hte game, when the idol has the msot influence) before Anders blew up the Chantry was ... A TOWER SEARCH!
Oh noes! The inhumanity! The Poor mages!
They have to stay out of their rooms for a few hours while temaplrs search them. How uttery and compeltely brutal.

Orsino was complainign so hard because he KNEW Merediths search would find what she was looking for.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. Nice try tough.
Ironicly, she is completely right. That is what she is doing. And a few harsher words in an argument don't mean hate.

There is no reason to bring Elthina into this. Like I said - it is just a tower search. Given the escalating blood mage activity, ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.

Really? When the head of the justified rebellion against Meredith and her cronies was killed because of Grace's actions -- as Keran, who notes the Champion would be an ally, tells us Thrask was -- and the rebellion itself was quelled? 

By this point in time, there are no more blood mages. The Mage Underground is destroyed, Thrask's rebellion against Meredith was sadly destroyed, and all blood mages in the city have been killed -- primarily by Hawke and not the Templars.

The only reason more cropped up is because Meredith's unjustified RoA created more of them because they were so desperate to survive.

We see her PLEEDING with a CRYING VOICE.
Her own words are:
"It breaks my heart to do this" - a Friggin tower search! Would a true mage hater care at all how mages feel? Would a true mage hater bother to ask for another way? Would a true mage hater almost cry?
Hell no.

Right, because I'm supposed to believe the woman who authorized her own zealotous Templars to go out and 'purge' Mage sympathizers is so broken up over a tower search -- as the third-person omniscient journal tells us she did in regards to A Noble Agenda.

I'm supposed to believe the woman that authorized the deaths of civilians simply for harboring Mages that were abused and starved is going to be teary-eyed about a search.

Yeah, that doesn't fly at all. Harboring Mages is considered to be a crime, but it's not one punishable by death per Chantry law.

I'd like to see you prove that.

Gladly.

As Knight-Commander, it is her job to discuss any and all Tranquilizations with the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle. Both of them must authorize the procedure, as in DAO Lily sees a writ containing the signature of Gregoir and Irving's seal. The codexes even state that the KC and the FE are supposed to work together to run the Circle. This is the lore we're given in DAO.

Ser Alrik was illegally using the RoT on Mages, and this apparently went unnoticed despite the fact that all Tranquilizations are to happen with the approval of both the First Enchanter and Knight Commander -- per DAO's Mage Origin, where records are kept of who was made Tranquil.

By all accounts, Orsino is a man who stands up for his charges. So I see no reason to believe he wouldn't have been very irate at the growing number of Tranquil Mages when he never authorized them becoming Tranquil.

Either Meredith was deliberately allowing Alrik to commit his plan despite her previous "No" to his grand master plan -- which could've been done just to save face with Kirkwall, not because she didn't approve of it -- or she's so incompetent it's not even funny.

Or she just didn't give a rat's ass.

So yeah, tacit or unofficial approval of it. She either approved of what he was doing unofficially, was incompetent at controlling her own Templars as is her duty as Knight-Commander, or knew but went "Not my concern".

Wait - so you assume that the lyrium is doing the opposite? That the sympathy is the cause of the idol and not the other way around?
Even tough we hear peoepl talk she was becoming STRICTER over time (meaning that the more sympathetic personality IS the real one).

She was becoming a harsher person towards the Mages long before she ever got the lyrium idol. 

So yeah, her sympathy is the lyrium idol's work, not her true persona.

Uteer, complete, total bullcrap.
"Done her job?"
You even prove she knew about it.

Right, because a First Enchanter who stands up for his charges and has had very loud and public disputes with Meredith is going to keep shut about that.

The harshest thing we see her do (at the end of hte game, when the idol has the msot influence) before Anders blew up the Chantry was ... A TOWER SEARCH!

Oh noes! The inhumanity! The Poor mages!
They have to stay out of their rooms for a few hours while temaplrs search them. How uttery and compeltely brutal.

Hey, I'm not against a tower search in general. Have Gregoir proposing it and I'll support it. Have Cullen propose it and I'll consider it.

Have Meredith propose it and I'll take issue with it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[DarthLaxian]

agreed - i would not trust her (well i would not trust Cullen or Gregoir either - at least if i was a mage...)

as for "it is just a simple search":

NO!

would you let the police just search your house because they think that would be a nifty thing to do?

no, i guess you would want a warrant and maybe you would even want your lawyer present (and to tell you if the warrant is authentic) to protect you from a search getting out of hand etc. (police is not allways the protector of people, sometimes policemen/women are the meanest SOBs you may find - same for the templars)

why would you not let them search your living space?

because you love your privacy (something mages should be allowed, too - they are human beings after all and they IMHO have all the rights that come with it)

greetings LAX
ps: i have nothing against templars in general - i hate them running the towers though, IMHO they should be a kind of town/country-police guarding against abominations, but not run circle towers and hunt people who just exercise their human rights (living free (opposed to being forced into a prison like the circle is) and doing what they want if it hurts no one else)...i might agree that young mages need to be forced to learn how to handle their gift, but once they have finished learning, they should be set free again (and: i am not saying that the learning needs to be at a single location in every country...there might be a way not to split mage-children from their families and it should be taken) to do as they please (maybe the templars could/should check on them every once in a while, but no tight control like this (this sparked rebellion in the first place...and it even forced Uldreds hand in DA:O!)

well funny how my PS is longer then the rest of the posting (i feel quite passionate about this, firstly because i see freedome as one of the few things that are worth dying for and as something no one should be able to strip from a person, regardless of age, gender and race...even more so, as i almost only play mages (do not like the other classes that much...))

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. Nice try tough.
Ironicly, she is completely right. That is what she is doing. And a few harsher words in an argument don't mean hate.

There is no reason to bring Elthina into this. Like I said - it is just a tower search. Given the escalating blood mage activity, ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. [/quote]

Really? When the head of the justified rebellion against Meredith and her cronies was killed because of Grace's actions -- as Keran, who notes the Champion would be an ally, tells us Thrask was -- and the rebellion itself was quelled? 

By this point in time, there are no more blood mages. The Mage Underground is destroyed, Thrask's rebellion against Meredith was sadly destroyed, and all blood mages in the city have been killed -- primarily by Hawke and not the Templars.
[/quote]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAh....no.

You seriously think that just because a few blood mages have been dealth with, there that's it?
It's like saying " I stoped a crime boss, there's no more crime in the city!"

All the blood mages runnign around during hte entire game - some were supported from the Circle. Even if by some miracel any and all blood mages outside of the Circle were stopped, there is still the matter of flushing out those who supported them from the inside.
Which is exactly what the search is about.
And which is exactly what Orsino was afraid about. He knew Meredith will find incriminating evidence.

So again - you still fail to provide any reason why Orsino would be so utterly upset about a simple search. Mage supporters seem to treat it like the most inhumane act in the history of forever.



[quote][quote]
We see her PLEEDING with a CRYING VOICE.
Her own words are:
"It breaks my heart to do this" - a Friggin tower search! Would a true mage hater care at all how mages feel? Would a true mage hater bother to ask for another way? Would a true mage hater almost cry?
Hell no.[/quote]

Right, because I'm supposed to believe the woman who authorized her own zealotous Templars to go out and 'purge' Mage sympathizers is so broken up over a tower search -- as the third-person omniscient journal tells us she did in regards to A Noble Agenda.[/quote]


So you cherry pick what lines to belive and waht not? Good, then I cna do also.

Third person "omniscent" journal? HA! I don't belive in it. There you go.


[quote]
I'm supposed to believe the woman that authorized the deaths of civilians simply for harboring Mages that were abused and starved is going to be teary-eyed about a search. [/quote]

Why not? You forget about the lyrium idol?
It keeps warping her personality.





[quote]
As Knight-Commander, it is her job to discuss any and all Tranquilizations with the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle. Both of them must authorize the procedure, as in DAO Lily sees a writ containing the signature of Gregoir and Irving's seal. The codexes even state that the KC and the FE are supposed to work together to run the Circle. This is the lore we're given in DAO.

Ser Alrik was illegally using the RoT on Mages, and this apparently went unnoticed despite the fact that all Tranquilizations are to happen with the approval of both the First Enchanter and Knight Commander -- per DAO's Mage Origin, where records are kept of who was made Tranquil.[/quote]

Actually, that is not conclusive.
Wether or not all Circles follow the exact same procedure is not established.
Also, wether or not Alarik fabricated evidence to authorize tranquilizations or approvals. Is it so hard to believe that Alarik could be playing Meredith? After all, deciding to tranqulize someone  is not a scientific procedure. All Alarik has to do is convince Meredith that the mage in question is weak and will fall.


[quote]
By all accounts, Orsino is a man who stands up for his charges. So I see no reason to believe he wouldn't have been very irate at the growing number of Tranquil Mages when he never authorized them becoming Tranquil. [/quote]

See above.







[quote][quote]
Wait - so you assume that the lyrium is doing the opposite? That the sympathy is the cause of the idol and not the other way around?
Even tough we hear peoepl talk she was becoming STRICTER over time (meaning that the more sympathetic personality IS the real one).[/quote]

She was becoming a harsher person towards the Mages long before she ever got the lyrium idol. 

So yeah, her sympathy is the lyrium idol's work, not her true persona.[/quote]

As everything you wrote, this is also a load of bull****, unsubstantiated by anything.





[quote][quote]
The harshest thing we see her do (at the end of hte game, when the idol has the msot influence) before Anders blew up the Chantry was ... A TOWER SEARCH!

Oh noes! The inhumanity! The Poor mages!
They have to stay out of their rooms for a few hours while temaplrs search them. How uttery and compeltely brutal.[/quote]

Hey, I'm not against a tower search in general. Have Gregoir proposing it and I'll support it. Have Cullen propose it and I'll consider it.

Have Meredith propose it and I'll take issue with it.[/quote]

Which shows you utter inability to think straight and let go of your bias.
An action is either sensible or not, regardless who is proposing it.

So if Hitler told you it was a good idea to feed the poor, you'd go "Hell no! I'll do the opposite of what you say!" and go around stealing food from the poor?

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAh....no.

You seriously think that just because a few blood mages have been dealth with, there that's it?
It's like saying " I stoped a crime boss, there's no more crime in the city!"

Considering the journal happens to tell us the Bloodragers are no more, sure! And we know they had no backing from the Circle, indeed! The third person omniscient journal is telling us things in the form of dialogue like "You have just done this" or even informing the player of things Hawke is not made aware of in-game on the screen.

That isn't to say apostates wouldn't go down that road eventually -- as there are always apostates. But the Circle's involvement in these cases of practiced blood magic has officially gone down to zero, until Meredith's RoA ends up creating more.

All the blood mages runnign around during hte entire game - some were supported from the Circle. Even if by some miracel any and all blood mages outside of the Circle were stopped, there is still the matter of flushing out those who supported them from the inside.
Which is exactly what the search is about.
And which is exactly what Orsino was afraid about. He knew Meredith will find incriminating evidence.

So again - you still fail to provide any reason why Orsino would be so utterly upset about a simple search. Mage supporters seem to treat it like the most inhumane act in the history of forever.

And Templar supporters see Meredith as the saint of all saints.

And Orsino was right. She has no right to search the Tower. She may have reason to believe they're there, but legally she doesn't have the right unless he supports it.

Which, you know, he ends up doing the moment he sees just how ****ed up in the head she is. He pleads with her to drop the RoA and he will assist her in searching the tower. And given his character of being a man who stands up for his charges, he would no doubt give himself up.

Which would just lead to Meredith calling for the RoA again, but he'd be in the right then.

So you cherry pick what lines to belive and waht not? Good, then I cna do also.

Third person "omniscent" journal? HA! I don't belive in it. There you go.

This ain't cherrypicking. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm actually basing what I'm saying off of prior evidence of Meredith's persona, speech, mannerisms, and authority.

You're just trying to make her seem like some saintly goddess descended from on high who can do no wrong unless external influences are involved.

This is a third person omniscient journal. Writing is very clear on this matter, where how it's written tells us point blank the very outlook it has. When the journal tells us facts that are not given in-game and uses the "you did this" format, it's third person omniscient.

So you can disbelieve it if you want. But you'd be wrong to do so and just trying to make Meredith seem like a goddess descended from on high who can do no wrong unless external influences are involved.

Actually, that is not conclusive.
Wether or not all Circles follow the exact same procedure is not established.

You, who will be tasked with the protection of the Circle, must be aware of its workings. The first enchanter is the heart of any tower. He will determine the course his Circle will take, he will choose which apprentices may be tested and made full mages, and you will work most closely with him.

From Knight-Commander Serain of the Chantry Templars, in a letter to his successor


 

Did you never consider that Alarik could be playing Meredith? After all, deciding to tranqulize someone  is not a scientific procedure. All Alarik has to do is convince Meredith that the mage in question is weak and will fall.

So then she'd be culpable as well, for failing to do her duty and bring the matter to the First Enchanter and discuss it with him, who is the one that determines which Mages can take the Harrowing and which ones cannot. It is through the knowledge of both parties and the authorization of both of them that RoTs can be performed.

You, who will be tasked with the protection of the Circle, must be aware of its workings. The first enchanter is the heart of any tower. He will determine the course his Circle will take, he will choose which apprentices may be tested and made full mages, and you will work most closely with him.

See above.

Yeah, that doesn't make it better. That makes it worse. It means that she went behind Orsino's back and allowed these crimes to occur by failing to do her duty.

As everything you wrote, this is also a load of bull****, unsubstantiated by anything.

Except for in-game accounts by Mages, Templars, codex entries, etc.

Yeah... completely unsubstantiated. Nothing to back it up at all.

Which shows you utter inability to think straight and let go of your bias.
An action is either sensible or not, regardless who is proposing it.

So if Hitler told you it was a good idea to feed the poor, you'd go "Hell no! I'll do the opposite of what you say!" and go around stealing food from the poor?

Yeah, no. I wouldn't steal from the poor. You're just King of the Strawmans, aren't you?

If Hitler was the one proposing it, he'd have an ulterior motive behind it -- like bolstering his armies, or gaining more popular support for him being in power, or using it to find more Jewish people. The person proposing the idea often has a different reason for proposing it then someone else.

People are not so simple as to share the same reasons for doing something.

Know the person, know their mindset, and you can begin to understand why they want to do something. Feeding the poor is a noble goal, provided noble intentions are backing it. But do something noble with something sinister behind it, and you're doing a good deed with malicious intentions. You're just masking a bad stance with something good, tainting it in the process.

It doesn't become inherently bad, but you're not doing it for the right reasons.

And fact: crime lords have often donated to charity, built schools, and so on to give them good PR. They did something good despite being bad people. Still good things to do, but not for the right reasons.

You are incredibly naive if you believe that people have the same reasoning for supporting/proposing the same suggestion.

And though I'm unsure whether Godwin's Law or Henderson's Law applies here:


And resorting to a Hitler comparison? A strawman one at that? There's no point in continuing a discussion with someone who would bring up Hitler to try and prove a point along with saying that if Hitler supported X, I'd do the exact opposite like the whole "Hitler Ate Sugar" trope is about.

No, I would not start stealing from the poor. I'd help feed the poor, but for the sole reason of feeding the poor and to be a good person. But I would always disagree with the man who put it forth if he was not a good person.

Either way, I'm done conversing with someone who brought up Hitler, Godwin or Henderson notwithstanding.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So when Meredith didn't know what her Templars were doing behind her back, she is just as guilty. But when Orsino fully knows some of his charges are blood mages, he may even himself be the very ring leader, then he is just a poor victim? Yeah TEWR you used to be a lot less biased and objective. Now you are just being ridiculous.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when Meredith didn't know what her Templars were doing behind her back, she is just as guilty. But when Orsino fully knows some of his charges are blood mages, he may even himself be the very ring leader, then he is just a poor victim? Yeah TEWR you used to be a lot less biased and objective. Now you are just being ridiculous.

Meredith is either guilty or incompetent. When harrowed mages turn up tranquil, it becomes incredibly obvious that someone is doing something illegally.

While we play from Hawke's perspective, and never actually see if Meredith was investigating things or not, we do know plenty about Meredith.

1. She goes behind Elthina's back so she can try to get the Rightof Annulment.
2. She illegally holds political power by refusing to give up being the acting viscount. It should be the city and its nobles that are running it, not the templars.
3. She has death squads (specifically called that in the codex) killing non-mages.
4. It has been said by other characters that the Circle had become far more oppressive since Meredith became the Knight-Commander (which was about two years before Orsino became First Enchanter)
5. She was traumatized by her sister becoming an abomination.

I have no doubt that Meredith honestly believes she's doing the right thing. But she simply is in the wrong. She blatantly abuses the power she does have. I don't know if she was investigating Alrik or not, but Alrik most certainly was getting away with a lot, as was Kerras.

Thrask is not a high-ranking templar, but he knows how deadly Kerras is. If Hawke tries to support Thrask in Act 1, a fellow templar, Kerras simply tries to kill Hawke without asking questions.

These are the kinds of people Meredith allows to rise in the ranks. When it comes to the illegal tranquilizations, Meredith either knew and approved of it, or was incompetent and didn't investigate it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Considering the journal happens to tell us the Bloodragers are no more, sure! And we know they had no backing from the Circle, indeed! The third person omniscient journal is telling us things in the form of dialogue like "You have just done this" or even informing the player of things Hawke is not made aware of in-game on the screen.

That isn't to say apostates wouldn't go down that road eventually -- as there are always apostates. But the Circle's involvement in these cases of practiced blood magic has officially gone down to zero, until Meredith's RoA ends up creating more.[/quote]

The journal? Who is writign the journal? From who's perspective is it written?
Dont' tell it's omniscent and all-knowing. I don't buy it.

Aslo, one group of blood mages is gone. Huzaaah! And that somehow proves that there are no blood mages in the city left? Get real.

The Circles involvment has NOT gone down to zero. You cannot prove that. In fact, we know it to be false, as ther were blood mages in the Circle.


[quote]
And Templar supporters see Meredith as the saint of all saints.[/quote]

Nope. But continue thiking that if it help you.

[quote]
And Orsino was right. She has no right to search the Tower. She may have reason to believe they're there, but legally she doesn't have the right unless he supports it.[/quote]

He was wrong. He was aslo supporitng blood mages.
And she HAS the right. A search and a RoT are NOT the same. She doesn't need persmission from the Grand Cleric.
If you claim otherwise PROVE IT.


[quote]
Which, you know, he ends up doing the moment he sees just how ****ed up in the head she is. He pleads with her to drop the RoA and he will assist her in searching the tower. And given his character of being a man who stands up for his charges, he would no doubt give himself up. [/quote]

The same man who supports blood magic, was the accomplice in murdering Hawkes Mother and then KILLED all of his charages with that blood mage spell?
Oh yes, what a paragon of virtue he is.

[quote]
Which would just lead to Meredith calling for the RoA again, but he'd be in the right then.[/quote]

Would she now? You'd have to prove that.
And it's a flimsy excuse to prevent a tower search. Any criminal on the planet could use it.



[quote]
This ain't cherrypicking. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm actually basing what I'm saying off of prior evidence of Meredith's persona, speech, mannerisms, and authority.[/quote]

It is cherrypicking. Because you refuse to acknowledge any reaosning that isn't yours.
I've been playing the same game as you. And I don't see it.

Is Meredith strict? Yes.
Does that make her a mage-hater? nope.
Does she have a reason to be strict? Kirkwall has many mages and mage problems. So yes.

[quote]
You're just trying to make her seem like some saintly goddess descended from on high who can do no wrong unless external influences are involved.[/quote]

Nope. She is rathr harsh, but that doesn't make her a mage-hater.
And given how long she had that idol in possesion, I'd say she was doing great. Betram - a dwarf - was driven insane in weeks. She had it for YEARS.




[quote][quote]
Actually, that is not conclusive.
Wether or not all Circles follow the exact same procedure is not established. [/quote]

You, who will be tasked with the protection of the Circle, must be aware of its workings. The first enchanter is the heart of any tower. He will determine the course his Circle will take, he will choose which apprentices may be tested and made full mages, and you will work most closely with him.

From Knight-Commander Serain of the Chantry Templars, in a letter to his successor[/quote]

And it sez nothing about tower searches OR tranqulity.
Nice try. No matter how many times you quote that line it changes nothing.

 

[quote]
Yeah, that doesn't make it better. That makes it worse. It means that she went behind Orsino's back and allowed these crimes to occur by failing to do her duty.[/quote]

But it does. I've yet to see clear evidence that Meredith needs Orsinos approval OR that Orsino didn't approve.



[quote]
Yeah... completely unsubstantiated. Nothing to back it up at all.[/quote]

Well, I have my own codex entries, lore experts, game texts to back ME up, so there.





[quote]
If Hitler was the one proposing it, he'd have an ulterior motive behind it -- like bolstering his armies, or gaining more popular support for him being in power, or using it to find more Jewish people. The person proposing the idea often has a different reason for proposing it then someone else.

Feeding the poor is a noble goal, provided noble intentions are
backing it. But do something noble with something sinister behind it,
and you're doing a good deed with malicious intentions. You're just
masking a bad stance with something good, tainting it in the process.[/quote]

and you have magical mind-reading abilites and know the reasoning every person has?


[quote]
Know the person, know their mindset, and you can begin to understand why they want to do something.[/quote]

And you don't know Meredith, you are projecting your own hate of templars onto her.

We can go all day ascribing dark motivations behind each and every action someone takes - hell, I can do that to make you look liek the most evil person in the world for giving charity. You don't want to help the poor. You jsut want ot see them suffer when you give them lots of money. You want them to know a full stomach so they can feel their misery even more.
You bad, evil, horrible person you.



[quote]
And resorting to a Hitler comparison? A strawman one at that? There's no point in continuing a discussion with someone who would bring up Hitler to try and prove a point along with saying that if Hitler supported X, I'd do the exact opposite like the whole "Hitler Ate Sugar" trope is about.[/quote]

Well, given that you do not respond to standard debating techniques, I figures lowering myself ot your level might work.


[quote]
Either way, I'm done conversing with someone who brought up Hitler, Godwin or Henderson notwithstanding.
[/quote]

Oh noes. The most henious of crimes. I spelled the name HITLER.

[Talvaris]

I agree with the post in here the Templars and specifically Meredith have caused the civil war that has started or is mention at the end of DA2. Most mages do not want to use blood magic or consort with demons but are forced to in some instances to keep others safe or because they are back into a corner by the templars. An for anyone who has seen Dawn of the Seeker you see how most mages of the circle only wish to be consider equal and have the same rights as everyone else.

As a mage player I understand the reason for having the templars watch the Circle but I do not think that gives them the right to treat them like prisioners. A mage learns to control his power so that he can help others. The templars should remember that along with their education in magic all mage towers have a church inside for them to go to. There is also the fact that Templars constantly talk or make mages feel like they are a curse on the people of Thedas and that they would be better off dead or tranquil to the world.

The only thing I will say is that Anders went to far in his attack on the chantry and has only made matters worst. As a famous seeker once said "Hate only breeds more hate". This is something mages and Templar as well as the chantry are going to have to get past if there is going to be peace and a chance for the chantry to survive the civil war that is going on. An it will be a war since you know the Tevinter Empire will look at this as a chance to regain their empire.

[MisterJB]

It doesn't take all mages to cause a cataclysm. Only the weak, power hungry and selfish ones. There are many and more who have no interest in helping others. Show weakness and that number will increase tenfold.
Sometimes, I think the qunari have a damn good point. I have yet to see a kossith Abomination.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:27 .

[BlueMagitek]

Talvaris wrote...

I agree with the post in here the Templars and specifically Meredith have caused the civil war that has started or is mention at the end of DA2. Most mages do not want to use blood magic or consort with demons but are forced to in some instances to keep others safe or because they are back into a corner by the templars. An for anyone who has seen Dawn of the Seeker you see how most mages of the circle only wish to be consider equal and have the same rights as everyone else.

No, Anders started the Civil War.  He more or less says as much, and does so when he kills the Grand Cleric to prevent any chance at compromise between the two factions.  Meredith is guilty of being horribly incompetent, not starting the civil war.  And that isn't entirely true, considering that prior to the Circle system, blood mages reigned supreme.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Talvaris wrote...
I agree with the post in here the Templars and specifically Meredith have caused the civil war that has started or is mention at the end of DA2.

No, that would be the mages... and more specificly Anders.
There always was tension, but never enough to actually case a war. With Anders and radicals like him - then it when it really started. For a thousand years the Circle system worked without wars and rebellions.

[Kangaxx628]

Not going to read all 32 pages of this thread, so apologies if it has been said before, "It's a cookbook!"

[BlueMagitek]

^ I actually don't think that has been said. Well done.

[Vit246]

doublepost

Modifié par Vit246, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Vit246]

MisterJB wrote...

It doesn't take all mages to cause a cataclysm. Only the weak, power hungry and selfish ones. There are many and more who have no interest in helping others. Show weakness and that number will increase tenfold.
Sometimes, I think the qunari have a damn good point. I have yet to see a kossith Abomination.

"Show weakness and that number will increase tenfold"? Ridiculous.

The "bad" mages were already hopelessly bad to begin with. And there is a severe lack of "weakness", as you call it, that is turning the decent mages left into unecessary enemies and monsters.

And there was a Kossith abomination in the Wounded Coast surrounded by his dead Kossith handlers at one point during the game.

Modifié par Vit246, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

As I recall that was "just" a loose abomination that killed the Qunari patrol. It wasn't specifically a Qunari Saarebas that turned into an abomination, but rather just a Qunari patrol that got ambushed by the Abomination.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when Meredith didn't know what her Templars were doing behind her back, she is just as guilty. But when Orsino fully knows some of his charges are blood mages, he may even himself be the very ring leader, then he is just a poor victim? Yeah TEWR you used to be a lot less biased and objective. Now you are just being ridiculous.

Meredith is either guilty or incompetent. When harrowed mages turn up tranquil, it becomes incredibly obvious that someone is doing something illegally.

While we play from Hawke's perspective, and never actually see if Meredith was investigating things or not, we do know plenty about Meredith.

1. She goes behind Elthina's back so she can try to get the Rightof Annulment.
2. She illegally holds political power by refusing to give up being the acting viscount. It should be the city and its nobles that are running it, not the templars.
3. She has death squads (specifically called that in the codex) killing non-mages.
4. It has been said by other characters that the Circle had become far more oppressive since Meredith became the Knight-Commander (which was about two years before Orsino became First Enchanter)
5. She was traumatized by her sister becoming an abomination.

I have no doubt that Meredith honestly believes she's doing the right thing. But she simply is in the wrong. She blatantly abuses the power she does have. I don't know if she was investigating Alrik or not, but Alrik most certainly was getting away with a lot, as was Kerras.

Thrask is not a high-ranking templar, but he knows how deadly Kerras is. If Hawke tries to support Thrask in Act 1, a fellow templar, Kerras simply tries to kill Hawke without asking questions.

These are the kinds of people Meredith allows to rise in the ranks. When it comes to the illegal tranquilizations, Meredith either knew and approved of it, or was incompetent and didn't investigate it.

1. She didn't go behind Elthina's back. She was fully public about her intentions of going to the Divine for the Right of Annulment.
2. How do you know it was illegal? And exactly what is the Thedosian laws regarding this issue?
3. They only appear to a pro-mage Hawke and they are described as such in the journal written by Hawke. While I don't disagree that they were death squads, I am questioning just how specific Meredith had been in their orders.
4. It is also said by characters within the Circle that isn't so bad. What is your point? There is no doubt that Meredith was a strict KC. But in Kirkwall you have to be.
5. Traumatized may be a bit too strong a word to use. She showed no symptoms of psychological trauma. As a matter of fact, she seemed to fully cope with what had happened with her sister.

She is the Knight-Commander of the most unruly Circle in Thedas. She has to be strict, and she has to promote such strictness among her Templars. While Thrask may have beena  terrific Templar in any other Circle than the Gallows, he was simply the wrong kind of leniency for Kirkwall. Kerras on the other hand may have started out as the exact kind of Templar Kirkwall needs, but as it often happens in Kirkwall, his personality was perverted. And with a few hundreds of mages you can't expect Meredith to keep track of every single one, let alone the ones who become Tranquil. She will have to trust in her Templars. That is not incompetence, that is simply the nature of keeping track of many hundreds of people. You can't.

[berelinde]

 A Harrowed mage cannot be made Tranquil according to Chantry law. (Wiki link)

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As I recall that was "just" a loose abomination that killed the Qunari patrol. It wasn't specifically a Qunari Saarebas that turned into an abomination, but rather just a Qunari patrol that got ambushed by the Abomination.

IIRC, the Qunari soldier you get the quest from says the missing karataam has gone missing, and a kaaratam is a group of soldiers that keep an eye on a Saarebas.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

1. She didn't go behind Elthina's back. She was fully public about her intentions of going to the Divine for the Right of Annulment.
2. How do you know it was illegal? And exactly what is the Thedosian laws regarding this issue?

1) Not really. She never says she's going to go do it. The only time you hear about it is in an offhand remark by Ser Karras if he lived. And that alone doesn't constitute Meredith making it fully known to the public. To her trusted Templars, sure. To Elthina, the populus, and the Mages? I doubt they knew.

2) Templars are not meant to hold political power, something you see with Irminric who gave up his ties to titles when he joined the Templars, Thrask remarks upon, and DotS tried to change with an assassination attempt orchestrated by a Grand Cleric and a Knight-Commander.

3. They only appear to a pro-mage Hawke and they are described as such in the journal written by Hawke. While I don't disagree that they were death squads, I am questioning just how specific Meredith had been in their orders.

The journal isn't written by Hawke. If it was, it'd say "I just killed Meredith's death squad consisting of her hand picked zealots tasked with 'purging' Mage-sympathizers". But it doesn't.

It says "You killed Meredith's death squad consisting of Meredith's hand-picked zealots tasked with 'purging' Mage-sympathizers".

It's written in a third person omniscient perspective.

4. It is also said by characters within the Circle that isn't so bad. What is your point? There is no doubt that Meredith was a strict KC. But in Kirkwall you have to be.

That'd be fair if we saw the Templars actually doing their jobs rather then pawning off cases to other groups because they feel it doesn't concern them, even when one of their own and someone he requested assistance from... turned up stuff.

In Act 1 alone you discover enough evidence to warrant Templar investigation into the Abandoned Foundry just by the sheer presence of Demons that appear long after someone fled the scene. And what do they do? They just pawn it off to the City Guard.

And then the City Guard is incompetent as well.

Kirkwall just reeks of incompetence from all parties. Templars, City Guardsmen, politicians, Mages, Hawke, etc.

5. Traumatized may be a bit too strong a word to use. She showed no symptoms of psychological trauma. As a matter of fact, she seemed to fully cope with what had happened with her sister.

She was just a kid when it happened. Something like that was bound to have psychologically traumatized her.

Cullen was psychologically traumatized and he doesn't show any symptoms either. The only thing that could be considered a symptom is just how he wishes he could get rid of those memories.

But that doesn't mean he isn't psychologically traumatized.

And with a few hundreds of mages you can't expect Meredith to keep track of every single one, let alone the ones who become Tranquil. She will have to trust in her Templars. That is not incompetence, that is simply the nature of keeping track of many hundreds of people. You can't.

Except all Tranquilizations are to be discussed with the First Enchanter, and both the FE and KC must consent and sign a writ whilst also creating a record of it. 

If on November 4 -- not bothering with the actual names of the Thedosian months, for the sake of discussion -- Meredith "approved" a Tranquilization of Johnny Larkum, but she was in Hightown all day during November 4, then that warrants an investigation.

If someone was forging her signature/using her authority, that warrants an investigation. So she either knew and allowed it unofficially, was incompetent at controlling her Templars and investigating them, or didn't care.

I cannot support a Circle where the Templars are abusing their power and creating more cases of blood mages/Abominations. If they are actually creating the problem they're supposed to protect the world from -- and definitively creating them by what they do to the Mages, not just arguably by nature of the Circle's existence -- then they are not to be supported.

In Kirkwall anyway. Whether DA3 gives me a reason to think siding with the rogue Templars is best, I dunno.

So when Meredith didn't know what her Templars were doing behind her back, she is just as guilty. But when Orsino fully knows some of his charges are blood mages, he may even himself be the very ring leader, then he is just a poor victim? Yeah TEWR you used to be a lot less biased and objective. Now you are just being ridiculous

The Best Served Cold case? He didn't know if they were blood mages. He suspected it, but he had no proof. There's a difference between the two concepts And he is not opposed to them meeting justice for using blood magic, as he tells Hawke to only fight them if they're truly doing something sinister. 

He even admits that, yes, she isn't completely wrong. But he's in a difficult position because now that Meredith has made him the target of her ire, few will associate with him -- along with the fact that he can not leave the Gallows without making himself seem tied to this rebellion in Meredith's view.

What he is against is going to the Templars without concrete information, as that inevitably means every Mage will be suspected. He wants to know just who is doing this, so he can take that information to the Templars, work with them, and keep the rest of his charges safe.

He wants to uncover what's going on, but he has been stonewalled from doing so. Meredith isn't stonewalled, and she has more information to go on but refuses to bring it to Orsino. Even when you tell her that he was never involved and that Thrask was the one spearheading the effort, she accuses Hawke of being a thrall of Orsino's blood magic rather then simply honing up to her being at fault.

She can't even admit to herself that she was wrong. That Orsino may not be as bad as she wanted to believe. Nope, gotta create some fantastic delusion about Orsino having wormed his way into Hawke's mind.

Also, I've always hated Meredith. This thread ain't showing anything new in that regard. How she acts as a Knight-Commander just made me detest her.

berelinde wrote...

 A Harrowed mage cannot be made Tranquil according to Chantry law. (Wiki link)

Without sufficient provocation for it, per David Gaider. There has to be a damn good reason why a Harrowed Mage should be made Tranquil -- i.e being a Blood Mage. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 novembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[berelinde]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

berelinde wrote...

 A Harrowed mage cannot be made Tranquil according to Chantry law. (Wiki link)

Without sufficient provocation for it, per David Gaider. There has to be a damn good reason why a Harrowed Mage should be made Tranquil -- i.e being a Blood Mage. 

Right, and it requires both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter to sign off on it.

The act of making someone Tranquil requires lyrium. We are never told how much, but considering its market value, I would expect that somebody would have to keep meticulous records of its distribution within both the Order and the Circle. Unauthorized dispersements are probably also illegal. It's akin to arresting somebody for jaywalking after they have already robbed a bank, but it's yet another sign of corruption within the Order.