817 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

Another point, when the hell did the maker say that lobotomizing mages against their will was A-okay to do? Regardless of whether they were apostate, blood mages, or otherwise.

Chantry = medieval catholic church = one of the most corrupt institutions around.

Circles = a collection of super humans who can get possessed = keep them the hell under control

What I think needs to happen, is some major ****ing reforms need to take place in the chantry and it has to get it's **** together when it comes to mages. Keeping them as slave labor essentially, forbidding them from ever leaving the tower unless lobotomized, forceing them to enchant weapons and items and seeing no rewards from it, under constant threat of execution and assault from their jailers, is making things worse and worse with each generation.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:37 .

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

Another point, when the hell did the maker say that lobotomizing mages against their will was A-okay to do? Regardless of whether they were apostate, blood mages, or otherwise.

Chantry = medieval catholic church = one of the most corrupt institutions around.

Circles = a collection of super humans who can get possessed = keep them the hell under control

What I think needs to happen, is some major ****ing reforms need to take place in the chantry and it has to get it's **** together when it comes to mages. Keeping them as slave labor essentially, forbidding them from ever leaving the tower unless lobotomized, forceing them to enchant weapons and items and seeing no rewards from it, under constant threat of execution and assault from their jailers, is making things worse and worse with each generation.

Chill. The plight of the mages must be understood, but we need not swear about it.
Yes, the Circle has serious problems, but we do have to understand that, at the very least, mages must learn to control their powers before being let loose. Teaching basic morality would also be a step in the right direction. The Circles should educate mages, not imprison them.

Modifié par Auintus, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[BlueMagitek]

^ See, most of that is false.

The Tranquil are kept as slave labor, not so much mages. Mages do make money from their wares.
Leaving the tower seems to vary Circle to Circle. Wynne was able to leave without a Templar escort with just permission from Irving.
Once again, there wouldn't be a faction of mages devoted to making money if they mages never saw any of it.
Maybe in Kirkwall, but while mages in Ferelden were under constant surveillance, they did not seem to be in danger except during their Harrowing or if they were engaged in blood magic (for Tranquility, which required by the Knight Commander and First Enchanter).

[Auintus]

Josielyn wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

How about: Mages shouldn't be allowed to enslave non mages?

But it's allowed the other way around?

Yes, ironic how imprisonment and slavery are just a little bit different?  Now, if the mages were forced to shine templar boots, sweep the floors and so on, then the Chantry probably couldn't get away with it.  So, "antimagic" doesn't count, since it can be used to rule over mankind?  Maybe the Chantry doesn't view mages as part of the great human race?  Ooooh this is a fun discussion!

Fenris, under the right circumstances, can be persuaded to join the mages if you point out that the Circles are no different than slavery. Shining boots, maybe not, but you may recall that some templars(sir alrik, for one) take a sick sort of pleasure in "guarding" their charges. If they get away with that...

[The Elder King]

xsdob wrote...

Another point, when the hell did the maker say that lobotomizing mages against their will was A-okay to do? Regardless of whether they were apostate, blood mages, or otherwise.

Andraste never said something about putting mages in the Circles. She only said that magic should not rule over men (so magic ruler shouldn't be present) and that magic must serve men (magic should be useful to humanity). Actually, we don't know if she's really the Maker's bride and if she spoke with the Maker. Unless we'll have definite proof about thie Maker, we can only believe it's true, or not believing at all.

[xsdob]

I'm not saying disband all the circles and let the mages do whatever they please, that would be just as bad as the current system. What I'm saying is that they need to reform the way they treat mages in general, so many of them wouldn't be wanting to escape if things were all sunshine and rainbows in the circles like the chantry tries to claim. Fereldian is extremely progressive in it's treatment of mages, but they aren't the norm, they appear to very much be the outlier in how mages are treated.

Maybe make the circles standardized in how they are treated, set better guidelines and make sure people like orsino and merideth don't come into power anymore, or do something at least. Leaving so much power over other peoples lives in the hands of those who might very well be happy in seeing them suffer is not a good way to run anything.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ See, most of that is false.

The Tranquil are kept as slave labor, not so much mages. Mages do make money from their wares.
Leaving the tower seems to vary Circle to Circle. Wynne was able to leave without a Templar escort with just permission from Irving.
Once again, there wouldn't be a faction of mages devoted to making money if they mages never saw any of it.
Maybe in Kirkwall, but while mages in Ferelden were under constant surveillance, they did not seem to be in danger except during their Harrowing or if they were engaged in blood magic (for Tranquility, which required by the Knight Commander and First Enchanter).

Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will. Leaving the Circle requires a certain degree of....there's a word for it. Like how Wynne is old and wise and has been a good girl for a long time while, say, Ella, and apprentice wasn't even allowed to see her family. I imagine the level of corruption would vary from Circle to Circle, Kirkwall among the worst, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will.

Not really. Tranquility after the Harrowing is strictly forbidden by the Chantry. It's why Aeonar exists, to imprison particularly dangerous mages who can't be trusted in the Circle but who also can't be executed or made Tranquil because they passed their Harrowing.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will. Leaving the Circle requires a certain degree of....there's a word for it. Like how Wynne is old and wise and has been a good girl for a long time while, say, Ella, and apprentice wasn't even allowed to see her family. I imagine the level of corruption would vary from Circle to Circle, Kirkwall among the worst, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere.

See, I don't recall that.  They can be made tranquil against their will with the permission of the Knight Commander and First Enchanter, or if they request it themselves.

Trust?  Prestige?  Not living in Kirkwall?

Kirkwall certainly seems to be the worst.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
But it's allowed the other way around?

Mages aren't slaves to the Chantry. They are people who were born with dangerous and unpredictable skills that force them to live under special conditions for their safety and that of others.
Sure, this involves limiting their freedom but the same applies to the rest of humanity. We limit our freedoms every day to ensure we can live in society. It's why I can't randomly decide that today I'm going to drive in the opposite side of the road or buy a panzer tank.
Since mages represent more of a danger than mundanes, their freedoms must be even more limited.

[xsdob]

So tranquility against a mages will is against he chantry's law, but it's the templars who enforce the chantry's laws in the first place, so basically whatever the templar knight commander says, goes, since he or she is essentially the law of the chantry and is in control of their entire military division there.

Unless the seekers get involved of course, but seeing as how they didn't do anything while in kirkwall when merideth decided to use tranquility as a punishment for disobeying the templars, it isn't very hard to see them turning a blind eye to mage abuse.

Modifié par xsdob, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will.

Not really. Tranquility after the Harrowing is strictly forbidden by the Chantry. It's why Aeonar exists, to imprison particularly dangerous mages who can't be trusted in the Circle but who also can't be executed or made Tranquil because they passed their Harrowing.

Heheheheh, Did you play DA2? Yes, it's against the rules. No, that doesn't mean jack. Rules mean nothing if their enforcers refuse to abide by them.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will. Leaving the Circle requires a certain degree of....there's a word for it. Like how Wynne is old and wise and has been a good girl for a long time while, say, Ella, and apprentice wasn't even allowed to see her family. I imagine the level of corruption would vary from Circle to Circle, Kirkwall among the worst, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere.

See, I don't recall that.  They can be made tranquil against their will with the permission of the Knight Commander and First Enchanter, or if they request it themselves.

Trust?  Prestige?  Not living in Kirkwall?

Kirkwall certainly seems to be the worst.

DA2 Anders remarks on seeing many mages that he knew passed their Harrowing in the Gallows as Tranquil. This may have being at the command of Meredith, I'm not for certain.

Prestige seems to be the closest. And I doubt that ANY mage outside Kirkwall can wander free. I tried leaving after my Harrowing in DAO, just as a joke.

We can't know for certain, but we know it's worse than most. Maybe Fereldan's Circle is the average.

[MisterJB]

There is no indication Meredith ever broke Chantry law. Some of her templars did which can make us question her stance on it as well her effectiveness as a KC but that is the extent of it.
Ultimately, the Seekers did not turn a blind eye to Kirkwall. Leliana was sent to investigate. But there were various factors in play such as blood mages running amok which one could argue justified Meredith's measures and Meredith's own power within the city. She stood above the Viscount in a city where the previous KC was hanged by the previous Viscount.

We have seen the Seekers perform their duties admirably in "Dawn of the Seeker" which did include protecting a mage child from blood mages.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
But it's allowed the other way around?

Mages aren't slaves to the Chantry. They are people who were born with dangerous and unpredictable skills that force them to live under special conditions for their safety and that of others.
Sure, this involves limiting their freedom but the same applies to the rest of humanity. We limit our freedoms every day to ensure we can live in society. It's why I can't randomly decide that today I'm going to drive in the opposite side of the road or buy a panzer tank.
Since mages represent more of a danger than mundanes, their freedoms must be even more limited.

Malcolm Hawke went through Circle training and spent the rest of his life as an apostate doing no harm to any innocents. They require training, not imprisonment. Just because something is powerful, doesn't mean it can't be controlled.

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

So tranquility against a mages will is against he chantry's law, but it's the templars who enforce the chantry's laws in the first place, so basically whatever the templar knight commander says, goes, since he or she is essentially the law of the chantry and is in control of their entire military division there.

Unless the seekers get involved of course, but seeing as how they didn't do anything while in kirkwall when merideth decided to use tranquility as a punishment for disobeying the templars, it isn't very hard to see them turning a blind eye to mage abuse.

Inaccurate. Tranquility after a mage has passed their Harrowing is against Chantry law. Though someone in the Kirkwall Circle decided to ignore this one.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will.

Not really. Tranquility after the Harrowing is strictly forbidden by the Chantry. It's why Aeonar exists, to imprison particularly dangerous mages who can't be trusted in the Circle but who also can't be executed or made Tranquil because they passed their Harrowing.

Heheheheh, Did you play DA2? Yes, it's against the rules. No, that doesn't mean jack. Rules mean nothing if their enforcers refuse to abide by them.

I saw a few corrupt Templars breaking the laws of the Chantry. How does that translate into "every single Circle mage in Thedas in at risk of being Tranquil whenever and wherever."?

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

There is no indication Meredith ever broke Chantry law. Some of her templars did which can make us question her stance on it as well her effectiveness as a KC but that is the extent of it.
Ultimately, the Seekers did not turn a blind eye to Kirkwall. Leliana was sent to investigate. But there were various factors in play such as blood mages running amok which one could argue justified Meredith's measures and Meredith's own power within the city. She stood above the Viscount in a city where the previous KC was hanged by the previous Viscount.

We have seen the Seekers perform their duties admirably in "Dawn of the Seeker" which did include protecting a mage child from blood mages.

We don't have any proof that Meredith had nothing to do with those Tranquilizations. Though I will admit, it was a disasterous situation and until Meredith snapped, she did a decent job handling it. I don't think that the Templar's leader should be ruling a city, too.
Unrelated: I've never seen Dawn of the Seeker. Any good?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

There is no indication Meredith ever broke Chantry law. Some of her templars did which can make us question her stance on it as well her effectiveness as a KC but that is the extent of it.
Ultimately, the Seekers did not turn a blind eye to Kirkwall. Leliana was sent to investigate. But there were various factors in play such as blood mages running amok which one could argue justified Meredith's measures and Meredith's own power within the city. She stood above the Viscount in a city where the previous KC was hanged by the previous Viscount.
.

Isn't the opposite? The viscount before Dumar wanted to limit the power of the templars in Kirkwall (or expel them, I don't remember), and the templars killed him.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
But it's allowed the other way around?

Mages aren't slaves to the Chantry. They are people who were born with dangerous and unpredictable skills that force them to live under special conditions for their safety and that of others.
Sure, this involves limiting their freedom but the same applies to the rest of humanity. We limit our freedoms every day to ensure we can live in society. It's why I can't randomly decide that today I'm going to drive in the opposite side of the road or buy a panzer tank.
Since mages represent more of a danger than mundanes, their freedoms must be even more limited.

Malcolm Hawke went through Circle training and spent the rest of his life as an apostate doing no harm to any innocents. They require training, not imprisonment. Just because something is powerful, doesn't mean it can't be controlled.

And against Malcolm I can point out several mages who abused their power,  fell prey to demons or simply sneezed and caught the house on fire.
There are many people in our world who might not actually cause an accident even if they drove on the wrong side of the road due to their skill as a driver. Does that mean we should abolish the laws pertaining circulation? Train people on how to drive cars and then trust they won't ever have an accident?

Nuclear Energy is powerful. We control it. That doesn't mean we allow civillians to keep uranium in their homes.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Any mage is at risk of being made Tranquil against their will.

Not really. Tranquility after the Harrowing is strictly forbidden by the Chantry. It's why Aeonar exists, to imprison particularly dangerous mages who can't be trusted in the Circle but who also can't be executed or made Tranquil because they passed their Harrowing.

Heheheheh, Did you play DA2? Yes, it's against the rules. No, that doesn't mean jack. Rules mean nothing if their enforcers refuse to abide by them.

I saw a few corrupt Templars breaking the laws of the Chantry. How does that translate into "every single Circle mage in Thedas in at risk of being Tranquil whenever and wherever."?

A few corrupt templars in any circle, anywhere in the world. More importantly, if any do become corrupt, mages have nowhere to turn. The Circles are to protect them as much as they are to protect people from them. Fighting that corruption would merely confirm a guilt in the eyes of other templars.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Isn't the opposite? The viscount before Dumar wanted to limit the power of the templars in Kirkwall (or expel them, I don't remember), and the templars killed him.

No, the previous Viscount became a tyrant (or a patriot, depends on who you ask) and wished to increase Kirkwall's power. So, he heavily taxed mercantile ships from other Andrastian nations.
The Templars did not abide by it so he attacked the Order and killed the KC. Meredith stepped in, took control, defeated the Kirkwall guard and hang the Viscount.

[thats1evildude]

Auintus wrote...

Unrelated: I've never seen Dawn of the Seeker. Any good?

The best recommendation I can give you is that it's just OK. It's not good, but given the general quality of video game movies, it's not as bad as it could be. It's not Uwe Boll bad.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:41 .

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

And against Malcolm I can point out several mages who abused their power,  fell prey to demons or simply sneezed and caught the house on fire.
There are many people in our world who might not actually cause an accident even if they drove on the wrong side of the road due to their skill as a driver. Does that mean we should abolish the laws pertaining circulation? Train people on how to drive cars and then trust they won't ever have an accident?

Nuclear Energy is powerful. We control it. That doesn't mean we allow civillians to keep uranium in their homes.

Can you assure me that every one of those mages was properly trained and educated. Malcolm was trained and then set loose. I'm not saying mages should be ignored, but they don't need to be imprisoned.
Should remove vehicles entirely? The Circles don't have laws as to how magic should be used, they take any with the capability to use it and imprison them. Like imprisoning anyone with the limbs necessary to drive on the basis of the damage they might cause.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:39 .

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Can you assure me that every one of those mages was properly trained and educated. Malcolm was trained and then set loose. I'm not saying mages should be ignored, but they don't need to be imprisoned.
Should remove vehicles entirely? The Circles don't have laws as to how magic should be used, they take any with the capability to use it and imprison them. Like imprisoning anyone with the limbs necessary to drive on the basis of the damage they might cause.

The Tevinter Magisters are properly trained and educated. Uldred was properly trained and educated.

Mages do need to be imprisioned. Their capability for destruction is unmatched in Thedas. We set rules and laws for drivers because their potential for destruction doesn't justify forbidding people from owning cars.
We don't allow people to live with nuclear bombs in their homes because the risk they pose justifies it this prohibition.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:44 .