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[thats1evildude]

Quentin was properly trained in the Circle, as were Orsino and Decimus. Didn't stop them from using blood magic in a destructive manner.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:48 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Isn't the opposite? The viscount before Dumar wanted to limit the power of the templars in Kirkwall (or expel them, I don't remember), and the templars killed him.

No, the previous Viscount became a tyrant (or a patriot, depends on who you ask) and wished to increase Kirkwall's power. So, he heavily taxed mercantile ships from other Andrastian nations.
The Templars did not abide by it so he attacked the Order and killed the KC. Meredith stepped in, took control, defeated the Kirkwall guard and hang the Viscount.

I read the info know. Well, it's not like te templar didn't abide. Orlais threatened to invade Kirkwall, and the Divine, which was a friend of the emperor, used the the templars to pressure the viscount, and then he wanted to expel them and the events you said.
I don't get the "tyrant" part, since what he did wasn't against his people, but was in Kirkwall's favour. Though I considering how little we know about it, there isn't enough info for me to say he's a tyrant, a patriot or whatever. Though the templars were used by the Chantry because the Divine wanted to help her friend. Unless the viscount did something that could create problems for the people of Kirkwall, I don't see a reason for the templars to interfee. It's not their problem what the viscount did to other nations.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
But it's allowed the other way around?

Mages aren't slaves to the Chantry. They are people who were born with dangerous and unpredictable skills that force them to live under special conditions for their safety and that of others.
Sure, this involves limiting their freedom but the same applies to the rest of humanity. We limit our freedoms every day to ensure we can live in society. It's why I can't randomly decide that today I'm going to drive in the opposite side of the road or buy a panzer tank.
Since mages represent more of a danger than mundanes, their freedoms must be even more limited.

Such simplistic mindset. Mundanes in dragon have plenty of choices to become something more then mere human. lyrium tatoes , spirit warriors and reavers all can be used by normal people. they refuse then they have no right to complain about abominations or mages at all. In fact in such a dangerous world where an abomination is mere nuisance compared to blights, rampaging dragons and qunuari invasions i find it perverse that humans as a whole do not seek to improve themselves. Its not the task of the mages to keep the mundanes safe. in fact the mundanes rights should be limited as they represent a liability.

[MisterJB]

Eh, Kirkwall pressures Orlais with taxes, Orlais pressures the Chantry, Chantry pressures the Templars, Templars pressure the Viscount. Basic politics.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

The Tevinter Magisters are properly trained and educated. Uldred was properly trained and educated.

Mages do need to be imprisioned. Their capability for destruction is unmatched in Thedas. We set rules and laws for drivers because their potential for destruction doesn't justify forbidding people from owning cars.
We don't allow people to live with nuclear bombs in their homes because the risk they pose justifies it this prohibition.

Tevinters were raised and trained in an environment that was conducive to their becoming as they are. Uldred just wanted to be left alone, if you remember Ines. Push someone enough and, yeah, they'll snap.

Anyone is capable of destruction. Even you or I. Should we just kill everyone on the fact that they are capable of dealing harm, ignoring possible good they can do?
Does the destruction a mage is capable of really justify imprisoning a human being because of what they are? They never asked for it. Some never wanted it. They weren't given a choice in the matter. Keili wishes to be free of magic so much she would prefer Tranquility. If you had a random gene that had a possiblility of making you dangerous, should you be imprisoned, without a care for what will happen to you? Should anyone be dehumanized because of something they never had a choice in?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Eh, Kirkwall pressures Orlais with taxes, Orlais pressures the Chantry, Chantry pressures the Templars, Templars pressure the Viscount. Basic politics.

Yeah. I think that the Chantry should be neutral in the matters of the Andrastian nations, but considering the relationship between Orlais and the Chantry, it's unlikely.

[Auintus]

thats1evildude wrote...

Quentin was properly trained in the Circle, as were Orsino and Decimus. Didn't stop them from using blood magic in a destructive manner.

Quentin was messed up and Orsino and Decimus were desperate. Had the latter two never been pushed, nothing would have happened. Quentin would have been demented, Circle or no.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Such simplistic mindset. Mundanes in dragon have plenty of choices to become something more then mere human. lyrium tatoes , spirit warriors and reavers all can be used by normal people. they refuse then they have no right to complain about abominations or mages at all. In fact in such a dangerous world where an abomination is mere nuisance compared to blights, rampaging dragons and qunuari invasions i find it perverse that humans as a whole do not seek to improve themselves. Its not the task of the mages to keep the mundanes safe. in fact the mundanes rights should be limited as they represent a liability.

First of all, Abominations can be as dangerous as a High Dragon. They would be more dangerous if the templars didn't limit their numbers so.

Anyway, if it's not the job of mages to keep mundanes safe, then it is also not the job of mundanes to give mages rights. We will take the necessary measures to ensure our safety. For millenia, that was the Circle system.
So, with this in mind, let us just fight until one side is victorious.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

First of all, Abominations can be as dangerous as a High Dragon. They would be more dangerous if the templars didn't limit their numbers so.

Anyway, if it's not the job of mages to keep mundanes safe, then it is also not the job of mundanes to give mages rights. We will take the necessary measures to ensure our safety. For millenia, that was the Circle system.
So, with this in mind, let us just fight until one side is victorious.

Woah, wait, what?
I don't protect you, so you can say that I'm less than human, that's how this works?
I won't agree that mundane rights should be limited, but seriously?

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Tevinters were raised and trained in an environment that was conducive to their becoming as they are. Uldred just wanted to be left alone, if you remember Ines. Push someone enough and, yeah, they'll snap.

Tahrone wasn't Tevinter. How many mages are there in Adrastian Nations who believe they should rule all mundanes?
Uldred who wished to raise an army of demons? I rather doubt he simply wished to be left alone, even before becoming an Abomination.

Anyway, what exactly constitutes as enough? Quentin lost his wife and that was enough to turn him into a more insane Dr. Frankestein. If the wife of a mage cheats on him, would that not be enough for many to set the neighborhood ablaze in fury?
Normal every day situations can become catastrophic if a mage is involved.

Anyone is capable of destruction. Even you or I. Should we just kill everyone on the fact that they are capable of dealing harm, ignoring possible good they can do?
Does the destruction a mage is capable of really justify imprisoning a human being because of what they are? They never asked for it. Some never wanted it. They weren't given a choice in the matter. Keili wishes to be free of magic so much she would prefer Tranquility. If you had a random gene that had a possiblility of making you dangerous, should you be imprisoned, without a care for what will happen to you? Should anyone be dehumanized because of something they never had a choice in?

Yes, very much so. I'm in favor of treating them humanely but mages simply must be kept apart from society under vigilance.
You or I are capable of destruction. But the destruction we can cause is nothing compared to what we could cause were we mages. Thus, we can enjoy more freedoms than they can. Because we do not represent as much of a threat to others as they do.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Quentin was properly trained in the Circle, as were Orsino and Decimus. Didn't stop them from using blood magic in a destructive manner.

Quentin was messed up and Orsino and Decimus were desperate. Had the latter two never been pushed, nothing would have happened. Quentin would have been demented, Circle or no.

So just because they were desperate it completely justifies their actions? Well, then lets just say that the Chantry is desperate to contain the threat of magic and all the problems are solved!!

[Josielyn]

How about this: once a mage goes through Circle training and they "pass" they get to go home, but their phylacteries stay at the Chantry "just in case"?

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Woah, wait, what?
I don't protect you, so you can say that I'm less than human, that's how this works?
I won't agree that mundane rights should be limited, but seriously?

You protect me by obeying the laws. If you do not wish to do so, then it's certainly not my job to fight for your freedom to disobey the laws.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Tahrone wasn't Tevinter. How many mages are there in Adrastian Nations who believe they should rule all mundanes?
Uldred who wished to raise an army of demons? I rather doubt he simply wished to be left alone, even before becoming an Abomination.

Anyway, what exactly constitutes as enough? Quentin lost his wife and that was enough to turn him into a more insane Dr. Frankestein. If the wife of a mage cheats on him, would that not be enough for many to set the neighborhood ablaze in fury?
Normal every day situations can become catastrophic if a mage is involved.

Wasn't talking Quentin. He was just messed up. I'm talking Uldred. "Wynne kept pestering him about his duty to the apprentices when all he wanted was to be left alone.
Tahrone's another oddhat. The Circle won't do anything for her. Better to kill her outright.
If mages are taught properly, than those sorts of situations don't come up. If someone cheats on a mage, they risk death only as much as cheating on a powerful individual, anyone strong enough could kill them. If a mage torches a neighborhood for the transgressions of one woman, they, again, are just messed up.

Yes, very much so. I'm in favor of treating them humanely but mages simply must be kept apart from society under vigilance.
You or I are capable of destruction. But the destruction we can cause is nothing compared to what we could cause were we mages. Thus, we can enjoy more freedoms than they can. Because we do not represent as much of a threat to others as they do.

So, because we are lucky enough to lack power, we get more freedom? That's not quite fair. It's not like they even had a choice.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So just because they were desperate it completely justifies their actions? Well, then lets just say that the Chantry is desperate to contain the threat of magic and all the problems are solved!!

When faced with death, any alternative is preferable. Compromise is not so alien a concept that mages must either be prisoners or loose cannons. There is a middle ground.
They were desperate because of the situation forced upon them by those who fear their powers. If they were desperate enough to torch a bear to save their skin, would anyone hold it against them?

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

You protect me by obeying the laws. If you do not wish to do so, then it's certainly not my job to fight for your freedom to disobey the laws.

If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

[Auintus]

Josielyn wrote...

How about this: once a mage goes through Circle training and they "pass" they get to go home, but their phylacteries stay at the Chantry "just in case"?

Thank you. So few people see the middle ground. It's reassuring to see that some understand.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Josielyn wrote...

How about this: once a mage goes through Circle training and they "pass" they get to go home, but their phylacteries stay at the Chantry "just in case"?

So that the mages can live in some village in the middle of nowhere, go abomination and no one will even know about it till the infestation spreads throughout the land? No. There is a reason for why the mages must be gathered in secure spaces.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Wasn't talking Quentin. He was just messed up. I'm talking Uldred. "Wynne kept pestering him about his duty to the apprentices when all he wanted was to be left alone.
Tahrone's another oddhat. The Circle won't do anything for her. Better to kill her outright.
If mages are taught properly, than those sorts of situations don't come up. If someone cheats on a mage, they risk death only as much as cheating on a powerful individual, anyone strong enough could kill them. If a mage torches a neighborhood for the transgressions of one woman, they, again, are just messed up.

Quentin was "messed up" because he lost his wife, a natural ocurrence. He was taught correctly, he wasn't beaten or violated. This is an example of an normal situation that became catastrophic because a mage was involved.
Life is hard, it's stressfull and there is an infinite number of situations that would convince a mage to abuse his powers.

So, because we are lucky enough to lack power, we get more freedom? That's not quite fair. It's not like they even had a choice.

The world is not fair.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

The laws says you can't own uranium because it poses a risk to everyone around it. But you think it glows so pretty in the dark.
Should I fight for your right to own uranium when it's threatening my health?

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

How about this: once a mage goes through Circle training and they "pass" they get to go home, but their phylacteries stay at the Chantry "just in case"?

So that the mages can live in some village in the middle of nowhere, go abomination and no one will even know about it till the infestation spreads throughout the land? No. There is a reason for why the mages must be gathered in secure spaces.

You assume that every uncontained mage will turn to demons and kill us all. If judged throughout their training, one would know if a closer eye must be kept on them. Hence the, bit about passing training, which involves rejecting a demon.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

I'd consider myself the middle ground. Keep all mages separed from larger society but do so humanely.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

The laws says you can't own uranium because it poses a risk to everyone around it. But you think it glows so pretty in the dark.
Should I fight for your right to own uranium when it's threatening my health?

No. But mages don't have something that they can just put away, it's part of who they are.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

You protect me by obeying the laws. If you do not wish to do so, then it's certainly not my job to fight for your freedom to disobey the laws.

If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

You are required by law to register any firearm you own, and also required to participate in the mandatory courses on the handling of said firearms (at least in my country). Furthermore all firearms have a unique serial code, so that if that particualr weapon is used in a crime, the authorities will know it belongs to you. There are enough safeguards in our current laws to make sure the ones who wants to own a gun, and still be law abiding citizens can do so.

A mage however has a gun he can never put down, or remove the ammunition from. It can even go off without his handling and cause damage to others and himself. Therefore a mage must be required to participate in madatory trainning and excersises. The problem is that due to the slow response time any law enforcement team would have to handle any non-local problems, you have to keep the mages, all the mages, locked up in the Circles, so that the Templars have a reasonable response time and oppertunity to prevent disaster.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
If the law says I have to be imprisoned for being capable of operating a gun, would that be fair? The law itself is the problem.

I'd consider myself the middle ground. Keep all mages separed from larger society but do so humanely.

Isolating people from society isn't humane, especially not in the degree to which the Circle does it.