817 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...

No. But mages don't have something that they can just put away, it's part of who they are.

I know. And it breaks my heart do it but we must be vigilant.
The Circle System is not perfect but it is necessary.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are required by law to register any firearm you own, and also required to participate in the mandatory courses on the handling of said firearms (at least in my country). Furthermore all firearms have a unique serial code, so that if that particualr weapon is used in a crime, the authorities will know it belongs to you. There are enough safeguards in our current laws to make sure the ones who wants to own a gun, and still be law abiding citizens can do so.

A mage however has a gun he can never put down, or remove the ammunition from. It can even go off without his handling and cause damage to others and himself. Therefore a mage must be required to participate in madatory trainning and excersises. The problem is that due to the slow response time any law enforcement team would have to handle any non-local problems, you have to keep the mages, all the mages, locked up in the Circles, so that the Templars have a reasonable response time and oppertunity to prevent disaster.

The training would deal with most situations. If psychologically evaluated during training, you would reduce the risk factor to a managable level. Templars should still remain as a policing force.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Isolating people from society isn't humane, especially not in the degree to which the Circle does it.

We isolate people contaminated with highly infectious diseases.

If you want to argue on ways to improve the Circle system, I'm all ears. I too think it can be improved tough I fear we would disagree regarding the extent of it.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...

No. But mages don't have something that they can just put away, it's part of who they are.

I know. And it breaks my heart do it but we must be vigilant.
The Circle System is not perfect but it is necessary.

If you can judge someone only by the threat that they might be, ignoring human aspects, ignoring good aspects, what heart could you possibly possess?
But you admit the system is not perfect. That leaves room for compromise. What would you suggest?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...
The training would deal with most situations. If psychologically evaluated during training, you would reduce the risk factor to a managable level. Templars should still remain as a policing force.

Have you noticed any excess of psychiatrist hanging around in Thedas. You are requiring of them to do things ages ahead of their societal standards.

[xsdob]

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

Modifié par xsdob, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Isolating people from society isn't humane, especially not in the degree to which the Circle does it.

We isolate people contaminated with highly infectious diseases.

If you want to argue on ways to improve the Circle system, I'm all ears. I too think it can be improved tough I fear we would disagree regarding the extent of it.

A mage is not an inherent threat, like an infectious person. Usually, they die quickly, or the disease is dealt with anyway. It's a short-term solution, not a life-long one.

Excellent. I propose that all mages are collected as currently, as young as possible. They should be trained, as currently, though I feel that moderately supervised visits to family should be allowed. Once a mage has passed their Harrowing, they ensure that the templars have a properly functioning phalactery and they are let go. Moving between countries would be more difficult as only their home Circle would have theirs. Mages showing signs of corruption, moral or demonic, would be watched very closely. I view Tranquility as heinous, but perhaps in rare circumstances, it could be allowed. Have I missed anything important?

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...
The training would deal with most situations. If psychologically evaluated during training, you would reduce the risk factor to a managable level. Templars should still remain as a policing force.

Have you noticed any excess of psychiatrist hanging around in Thedas. You are requiring of them to do things ages ahead of their societal standards.

It's paying attention and asking, "Does this one seem like the type to accept a deal from a demon or abuse their powers?" I'm not expecting a complete psychoanalysis.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Isolating people from society isn't humane, especially not in the degree to which the Circle does it.

We isolate people contaminated with highly infectious diseases.

If you want to argue on ways to improve the Circle system, I'm all ears. I too think it can be improved tough I fear we would disagree regarding the extent of it.

A mage is not an inherent threat, like an infectious person. Usually, they die quickly, or the disease is dealt with anyway. It's a short-term solution, not a life-long one.

Excellent. I propose that all mages are collected as currently, as young as possible. They should be trained, as currently, though I feel that moderately supervised visits to family should be allowed. Once a mage has passed their Harrowing, they ensure that the templars have a properly functioning phalactery and they are let go. Moving between countries would be more difficult as only their home Circle would have theirs. Mages showing signs of corruption, moral or demonic, would be watched very closely. I view Tranquility as heinous, but perhaps in rare circumstances, it could be allowed. Have I missed anything important?

Other than the fact that if a mage goes abomination outside the Circle it could take months or even years for the Templars to even learn about it, and much longer to actually track down the abomination and eliminating it, then you aren't forgetting anything really important. Maybe, the fact that the Templars would be unable to keep track of the mages' studies outside of the Circles, and that would most likely allow several Maleficarum Covenants to pop up all over the world...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:33 .

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

Orsino said much the same thing. "Why not just drown us as babes? Why give us the illusion of hope?"

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than the fact that if a mage goes abomination outside the Circle it could take months or even years for the Templars to even learn about it, and much longer to actually track down the abomination and eliminating it.

Mages must accept the deal in order to become abominations. The training and evaluation would cover that.
Edit: You've added more to the quote, but I think this still covers it.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...
The training would deal with most situations. If psychologically evaluated during training, you would reduce the risk factor to a managable level. Templars should still remain as a policing force.

Have you noticed any excess of psychiatrist hanging around in Thedas. You are requiring of them to do things ages ahead of their societal standards.

It's paying attention and asking, "Does this one seem like the type to accept a deal from a demon or abuse their powers?" I'm not expecting a complete psychoanalysis.

I hope we both know it is a lot deeper thana  simple yes/no question. And since Thedas simply doesn't have the scientific knowhow, it is unreasonable to demand it of them.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
If you can judge someone only by the threat that they might be, ignoring human aspects, ignoring good aspects, what heart could you possibly possess?

That's harsh. We limit our freedoms everyday because of the threat we might be, ignoring all humans aspects. It's why we have gun control, it's why we have a penal system.
Not because we assume all people are "evil" but because we know all have the potential to be. The same applies to mages, only in greater extent because of the greater threat they pose.

But you admit the system is not perfect. That leaves room for compromise. What would you suggest?

First, I would attempt to turn the Circle into a more welcoming and
humane instution for both mages and mundanes. Mages would be allowed to
receive visits both parental and conjugal so as to desmitify much of the
mistery and fear that surrounds the Circle. Recreational visits to
cities would be allowed so long as the mages are accompanied by
experienced templars. Marriages and procreation with other mages and
mundanes (met during the aforementioned visits, I imagine) would be
allowed so long as the mage understand the hardships of mantaining
relationships from inside the circle and that mundane childs would have
to be given to someone from outside of the Circle to look after. Also, only one mage child per couple.
Mages
sending letters to the exterior would be permitted but those letters
would be opened and read to ensure no plan of escape is being fomented.
The
weakest of mages could choose to not go through the Harrowing but they
would also not have acess to the same privileges of other mages.
Under
no circunstances would I allow a mage to live outside of the Circle.
Shale's owner, for instance, was allowed and his grandchild was in risk
of being possessed by a demon.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Mages must accept the deal in order to become abominations. The training and evaluation would cover that.
Edit: You've added more to the quote, but I think this still covers it.

And not a single mage would be tempted by the power blood magic offer? C'mon.

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than the fact that if a mage goes abomination outside the Circle it could take months or even years for the Templars to even learn about it, and much longer to actually track down the abomination and eliminating it.

Mages must accept the deal in order to become abominations. The training and evaluation would cover that.

No they don't. Whenever a mage cast a spell, they must open themselves to the Fade. When they do so, they also open themselves to demons. If a single syllable is uttered incorrect, or a move is out of sync, they increase the chance of demonic possession.
A demon can forcibly takeover the mage. It's truly astounding how so few can actually remember that part of the whole "abomination dillema"...

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I hope we both know it is a lot deeper thana  simple yes/no question. And since Thedas simply doesn't have the scientific knowhow, it is unreasonable to demand it of them.

Human nature isn't incredibly difficult to understand. Signs of corruption would be visible to, say, another mage who knows about this kind of stuff. If a mage were outnumbered by a group of humans and resorted to a demonic deal to save their own life, yes, we have a rather large problem. But that problem would not have originated from the mage themself.

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Mages must accept the deal in order to become abominations. The training and evaluation would cover that.
Edit: You've added more to the quote, but I think this still covers it.

And not a single mage would be tempted by the power blood magic offer? C'mon.

And I'm sure templars are just as incorruptable right? That's why we've seen them willing commit crimes and bend the law with their authority. For example, the templars who tried to kill the warden if you choose to allow anders to become a grey warden.

So basically, templars are just as wrong and can hurt as many people. But cause they do it in the makers name, that's okay.

Just because criminals exist doesn't allow you to treat everyone like a criminal.

Modifié par xsdob, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Auintus wrote...
If you can judge someone only by the threat that they might be, ignoring human aspects, ignoring good aspects, what heart could you possibly possess?

That's harsh. We limit our freedoms everyday because of the threat we might be, ignoring all humans aspects. It's why we have gun control, it's why we have a penal system.
Not because we assume all people are "evil" but because we know all have the potential to be. The same applies to mages, only in greater extent because of the greater threat they pose.

But you admit the system is not perfect. That leaves room for compromise. What would you suggest?

First, I would attempt to turn the Circle into a more welcoming and
humane instution for both mages and mundanes. Mages would be allowed to
receive visits both parental and conjugal so as to desmitify much of the
mistery and fear that surrounds the Circle. Recreational visits to
cities would be allowed so long as the mages are accompanied by
experienced templars. Marriages and procreation with other mages and
mundanes (met during the aforementioned visits, I imagine) would be
allowed so long as the mage understand the hardships of mantaining
relationships from inside the circle and that mundane childs would have
to be given to someone from outside of the Circle to look after. Also, only one mage child per couple.
Mages
sending letters to the exterior would be permitted but those letters
would be opened and read to ensure no plan of escape is being fomented.
The
weakest of mages could choose to not go through the Harrowing but they
would also not have acess to the same privileges of other mages.
Under
no circunstances would I allow a mage to live outside of the Circle.
Shale's owner, for instance, was allowed and his grandchild was in risk
of being possessed by a demon.

A vast improvement over the original, to be sure, but it still amounts to a guilded cage. It does offer most of the same rights as my idea, while elimanating some risks that mine leaves present. A fair compromise, though by no means ideal.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No they don't. Whenever a mage cast a spell, they must open themselves to the Fade. When they do so, they also open themselves to demons. If a single syllable is uttered incorrect, or a move is out of sync, they increase the chance of demonic possession.
A demon can forcibly takeover the mage. It's truly astounding how so few can actually remember that part of the whole "abomination dillema"...

You remember that Uldred had to torture mages in order for them to accept the demon? Connor accepted a deal. I remember no recollection of any forced abomination with the exception of one incident in Kirkwall, but that involved a group of mages forcibly hosting a third party.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I hope we both know it is a lot deeper thana  simple yes/no question. And since Thedas simply doesn't have the scientific knowhow, it is unreasonable to demand it of them.

Human nature isn't incredibly difficult to understand. Signs of corruption would be visible to, say, another mage who knows about this kind of stuff. If a mage were outnumbered by a group of humans and resorted to a demonic deal to save their own life, yes, we have a rather large problem. But that problem would not have originated from the mage themself.

No, the problem would be with magic. Sadly you can't seperate magic from the mage without rendering the mage Tranquil. I would wish that the Rite of Tranquility left the amge with all his faculties intact, since that would be the ideal situation in my eyes, and would solve a whole lot of the problems. Sadly that isn't so.
But attach a gun to a man and you know he will use it in desperate situations. Liekwise with mages, we KNOW they will use it, so we just try to prevent the sitution from ever arising.
And yes, "human nature" acn be incredibly complex and diverse. And a simple yes/no question based on "astude observation of an untrained" simply won't be accurate enough to warrant the use of your proposed system.

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...
And I'm sure templars are just as incorruptable right? That's why we've seen them willing commit crimes and bend the law with their authority. For example, the templars who tried to kill the warden if you choose to allow anders to become a grey warden.

So basically, templars are just as wrong and can hurt as many people. But cause they do it in the Makers name, that's okay.

No, they aren't and no, they can't.
Templars have commited abuses but the crimes of the Chantry pale in comparison to the foulness that is Tevinter.
And the potential for destruction of your average mage greatly surpasses that of the average templar.

Just because criminals exist doesn't allow you to treat everyone like a criminal.

We limit our freedoms everyday so we can live in society. We do this because we have the potential to harm others. It's why there are laws and rules.
Since mages are a much greater threat than mundanes, their freedoms must be more limited still.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]Auintus wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages must accept the deal in order to become abominations. The training and evaluation would cover that.[/quote]
No they don't. Whenever a mage cast a spell, they must open themselves to the Fade. When they do so, they also open themselves to demons. If a single syllable is uttered incorrect, or a move is out of sync, they increase the chance of demonic possession.
A demon can forcibly takeover the mage. It's truly astounding how so few can actually remember that part of the whole "abomination dillema"...[/quote]

You remember that Uldred had to torture mages in order for them to accept the demon? Connor accepted a deal. I remember no recollection of any forced abomination with the exception of one incident in Kirkwall, but that involved a group of mages forcibly hosting a third party.[/quote]

There can be all sorts of reasons as to why Uldred tortured the mages into submission. But that is jsut it, he tortured them into it. Torture a man enough and he will agree to anything. A mage doesn't have to accept the deal, but maybe the resultant abomination from such a possession is stronger. The very man you brought up certainly didn't accept a deal with a demon, and he became an abomination. There would also be Ser Thrask's daughter, she certainly didn't accept any deal with a demon either.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:46 .

[Josielyn]

Well, I would hope that if the mage has been properly indoctrinated against blood magic during their schooling, then the majority will resist the power it offers, rather than risk being turned into a very unattractive giant-pink-raisiny-looking-yellow-eyed-abomination. Most of the mages I have seen become abominations in these games are because a blood mage turned them, or because they got so desperately mad at the Templars brutality and lack of freedom that they turned to Blood Magic as their last resort. Who is to say that some "normal" mages from that local circle couldn't be kept around with 1-2 friendly Templars to whip up on that stinky giant-pink-raisiny-looking-yellow-eyed-abomination and turn it into a smoking pile of ashes?