817 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Human nature isn't incredibly difficult to understand. Signs of corruption would be visible to, say, another mage who knows about this kind of stuff. If a mage were outnumbered by a group of humans and resorted to a demonic deal to save their own life, yes, we have a rather large problem. But that problem would not have originated from the mage themself.

No, the problem would be with magic. Sadly you can't seperate magic from the mage without rendering the mage Tranquil. I would wish that the Rite of Tranquility left the amge with all his faculties intact, since that would be the ideal situation in my eyes, and would solve a whole lot of the problems. Sadly that isn't so.
But attach a gun to a man and you know he will use it in desperate situations. Liekwise with mages, we KNOW they will use it, so we just try to prevent the sitution from ever arising.
And yes, "human nature" acn be incredibly complex and diverse. And a simple yes/no question based on "astude observation of an untrained" simply won't be accurate enough to warrant the use of your proposed system.

Magic is not the problem any more than guns are the problem. Like with a gun, they should be trained and the mage's superiors should be confident that they won't be a problem.
A mage should be allowed to rely on magic in a desperate situation. The situations in which accepting a demon's offer is the only way out were only ever the result of templars.
The yes/no isn't presented to the mage, but to the enchanter teaching them. Ideally, one throughout their entire training, one that knows them, and knows what kind of moral risk they pose.

[EmperorSahlertz]

xsdob wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There can be all sorts of reasons as to why Uldred tortured the mages into submission. But that is jsut it, he tortured them into it. Torture a man enough and he will agree to anything. A mage doesn't have to accept the deal, but maybe the resultant abomination from such a possession is stronger. The very man you brought up certainly didn't accept a deal with a demon, and he became an abomination. There would also be Ser Thrask's daughter, she certainly didn't accept any deal with a demon either.

You see situations like Thrask's daughter two or three times, always desperate, always outnumbered and surrounded. A demon can contact a mage through the fade, it doesn't have to manafest. What's to say they weren't contacted, and accepted as a last-ditch effort for survival?

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

We limit our freedoms everyday so we can live in society. We do this because we have the potential to harm others. It's why there are laws and rules.
Since mages are a much greater threat than mundanes, their freedoms must be more limited still.

And I say the limits go too far, forbiddening them form ever seeing their loved ones again, from ever participating in the world at all, is not limiting freedom to protect other peoples freedom, it's just an act of cruelty to subjucate people who couldn't help that they were born with magic.

Why not allow visitors to the circles? Why is that forbidden?

Why is it that templars can't simply send guards to watch over them when they escape the chantry. Or even better, send out templars once a week or two to check on the mages living outside the chantry. Make it like people on bail or parole, where they are checked on and required to check in with the chantry.

If they don't show up, or leave without telling the local chantry and templars there, or the templar who goes to check on them doesn't return, than you can go and take them in to custody or eliminate them.

It doesn't need to be the way it is, the circle is not the best way to do things anymore now that thedas has a chantry set up in practically every town and area of thedas with more than enough ability to have a templar force there to keep the mages monitored without imprisioning them inside a ****ing cage.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

Because the man with a full stomach and no shelter in the middle of winter thinks "Well, at least I'm not starving."<_<

@xsdob We've been trying to make a compromise. Well, some of us.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Human nature isn't incredibly difficult to understand. Signs of corruption would be visible to, say, another mage who knows about this kind of stuff. If a mage were outnumbered by a group of humans and resorted to a demonic deal to save their own life, yes, we have a rather large problem. But that problem would not have originated from the mage themself.

No, the problem would be with magic. Sadly you can't seperate magic from the mage without rendering the mage Tranquil. I would wish that the Rite of Tranquility left the amge with all his faculties intact, since that would be the ideal situation in my eyes, and would solve a whole lot of the problems. Sadly that isn't so.
But attach a gun to a man and you know he will use it in desperate situations. Liekwise with mages, we KNOW they will use it, so we just try to prevent the sitution from ever arising.
And yes, "human nature" acn be incredibly complex and diverse. And a simple yes/no question based on "astude observation of an untrained" simply won't be accurate enough to warrant the use of your proposed system.

Magic is not the problem any more than guns are the problem. Like with a gun, they should be trained and the mage's superiors should be confident that they won't be a problem.
A mage should be allowed to rely on magic in a desperate situation. The situations in which accepting a demon's offer is the only way out were only ever the result of templars.
The yes/no isn't presented to the mage, but to the enchanter teaching them. Ideally, one throughout their entire training, one that knows them, and knows what kind of moral risk they pose.

That is simply downright false. Several incidents of abominations with no connection to the Tempalrs are present in the game. So that is merely another blatant attempt at villifying the Templars.
And I am telling you, you can't expect a man, with no prior trainning in the field, to make a qualified guess of such a caliber as to the corruptibility of the subjet at hand. It is impossible even in our world, yet you propose Thedas, who are noticably behind ours in that particualr field, to make such an assesment. Unreasonable, quite frankly.

[xsdob]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

How so? Say I burned down your house and maxed out your credit cards. Could I say that your plight was a farce cause I didn't also cut off your arms and legs?

Saying that there are other situations that are worse doesn't make the current situation any better.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

Because the man with a full stomach and no shelter in the middle of winter thinks "Well, at least I'm not starving."<_<

Perhaps he should look at his fellow who is starving, and realize, perhaps I don't got it all that bad as I thought. Luxury is the breeding ground for malcontent after all.

[Josielyn]

I was just reminded of something:  since dreaming is a connection to the Fade it is too risky to be allowed.  It should be outlawed at once! Anyone caught dreaming should be made Tranquil immediately! ESPECIALLY if those dreams involve a Desire Demon!  

[xsdob]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

Because the man with a full stomach and no shelter in the middle of winter thinks "Well, at least I'm not starving."<_<

Perhaps he should look at his fellow who is starving, and realize, perhaps I don't got it all that bad as I thought. Luxury is the breeding ground for malcontent after all.

So make a hobo camp that gets threatened, harassed, and beaten to death by the cops.

Yay, that's so much better than living in a house like everyone else.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is simply downright false. Several incidents of abominations with no connection to the Tempalrs are present in the game. So that is merely another blatant attempt at villifying the Templars.
And I am telling you, you can't expect a man, with no prior trainning in the field, to make a qualified guess of such a caliber as to the corruptibility of the subjet at hand. It is impossible even in our world, yet you propose Thedas, who are noticably behind ours in that particualr field, to make such an assesment. Unreasonable, quite frankly.

Prior training in knowing whether a mage is a risk of turning to demons? Jowan was going to be tranqulized over a(accurate, I might add) hunch that he was practicing blood magic. You think someone who has trained a child for years won't know if they see mages as superior, or have risky level of ambition?
Which abominations? Can you confirm that they weren't from a demon's deal? Thrask's daughter was surrounded by slavers, the only one concerning templars was during "The Last Straw." I vilify no one, I merely reference a single confirmed incident.

[EmperorSahlertz]

xsdob wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

How so? Say I burned down your house and maxed out your credit cards. Could I say that your plight was a farce cause I didn't also cut off your arms and legs?

Saying that there are other situations that are worse doesn't make the current situation any better.

Again, since a mage doesn't got it nearly as bad the Casteless or even the City Elves, it is simply ridiculous that people are trying to make it sound like they have it oh so bad. The mages are given free food, shelter and education. But it comes at a price. City Elves and Casteless are given nothing, can expect nothing and will recieve nothing, because people are too busy hearing the whine of the mages. It makes it a farce, because people are trying to make the plight of the mages something humanitarian, while still ignoring far worse humanitarian situations going on in Thedas.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

Because the man with a full stomach and no shelter in the middle of winter thinks "Well, at least I'm not starving."<_<

Perhaps he should look at his fellow who is starving, and realize, perhaps I don't got it all that bad as I thought. Luxury is the breeding ground for malcontent after all.

I..I...no, just no. Something is not automatically okay just because someone else has it worse.

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...
And I say the limits go too far, forbiddening them form ever seeing their loved ones again, from ever participating in the world at all, is not limiting freedom to protect other peoples freedom, it's just an act of cruelty to subjucate people who couldn't help that they were born with magic.

Why not allow visitors to the circles? Why is that forbidden?

Why is it that templars can't simply send guards to watch over them when they escape the chantry. Or even better, send out templars once a week or two to check on the mages living outside the chantry. Make it like people on bail or parole, where they are checked on and required to check in with the chantry.

If they don't show up, or leave without telling the local chantry and templars there, or the templar who goes to check on them doesn't return, than you can go and take them in to custody or eliminate them.

It doesn't need to be the way it is, the circle is not the best way to do things anymore now that thedas has a chantry set up in practically every town and area of thedas with more than enough ability to have a templar force there to keep the mages monitored without imprisioning them inside a ****ing cage.

It's not an act of cruelty, it's necessity. Just like gun control is a necessity.

I've already admitted the Circle is not perfect but I don't like your system.
By allowing the mages to live amongst the normal population, you slow templar response and increase the number of potential victims close by. That leads to an increase number of civillians casualties when things do go bad. And they will go bad eventually.
You are putting the larger population at risk to preserve the freedoms of a few. I do not find this acceptable.

And that is without even taking into account the fact that freedom for mages can quickly lead to mundanes becoming second class citizens which is another aspect alltogether.

[xsdob]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

How so? Say I burned down your house and maxed out your credit cards. Could I say that your plight was a farce cause I didn't also cut off your arms and legs?

Saying that there are other situations that are worse doesn't make the current situation any better.

Again, since a mage doesn't got it nearly as bad the Casteless or even the City Elves, it is simply ridiculous that people are trying to make it sound like they have it oh so bad. The mages are given free food, shelter and education. But it comes at a price. City Elves and Casteless are given nothing, can expect nothing and will recieve nothing, because people are too busy hearing the whine of the mages. It makes it a farce, because people are trying to make the plight of the mages something humanitarian, while still ignoring far worse humanitarian situations going on in Thedas.

You bring up a good point.

The chantry needs to be massivly reformed because of their crimes against mages, pushing the kingdoms of thedas to mistreat the elves and condon mistreating and discriminating against them, and not doing any actions against the dwarfs crimes against their own kind and refusing to criticize them over fear of trade issues.

Modifié par xsdob, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is simply downright false. Several incidents of abominations with no connection to the Tempalrs are present in the game. So that is merely another blatant attempt at villifying the Templars.
And I am telling you, you can't expect a man, with no prior trainning in the field, to make a qualified guess of such a caliber as to the corruptibility of the subjet at hand. It is impossible even in our world, yet you propose Thedas, who are noticably behind ours in that particualr field, to make such an assesment. Unreasonable, quite frankly.

Prior training in knowing whether a mage is a risk of turning to demons? Jowan was going to be tranqulized over a(accurate, I might add) hunch that he was practicing blood magic. You think someone who has trained a child for years won't know if they see mages as superior, or have risky level of ambition?
Which abominations? Can you confirm that they weren't from a demon's deal? Thrask's daughter was surrounded by slavers, the only one concerning templars was during "The Last Straw." I vilify no one, I merely reference a single confirmed incident.

Ser Thrask's daughter is a prime example of an abomination without a deal with a demon. You clearly see her during the process, and at no point is she in contact with a demon. It is not like a mage can simply "think" themselves into contact with a demon. However, what we do see, is her attempting to cast a spell, and something goes wrong, and she succumbs.
And of examples of abominations unrelated to Templars: Baroness jumps to mind. The one the mage underground (which I forget what is called) in DA:O have you track down. Probably more, but can't think of any at this moment.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

As Carver so eloquently put it:
"Shove your plight."

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

It's not an act of cruelty, it's necessity. Just like gun control is a necessity.

I've already admitted the Circle is not perfect but I don't like your system.
By allowing the mages to live amongst the normal population, you slow templar response and increase the number of potential victims close by. That leads to an increase number of civillians casualties when things do go bad. And they will go bad eventually.
You are putting the larger population at risk to preserve the freedoms of a few. I do not find this acceptable.

And that is without even taking into account the fact that freedom for mages can quickly lead to mundanes becoming second class citizens which is another aspect alltogether.

Mundanes would be second-class the same way anyone who is not a doctor is second-class. They have a different set of skills and abilities, that doesn't automatically make them all despots.

[EmperorSahlertz]

xsdob wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not just kill mages if your going to sentence them to life imprisoned? If we're going with the route of they're all too dangerous to be allowed to leave or live anywhere but prision, why not just kill them? Hell, we already saw how the tranquil react when they get their wills again, the one anders cured begged him to kill him, is that a sign of it being a good alternative? Seperating them from all of society, isolating them from their friends and familiy and forbidding them from seeing them ever again, they're entire lives are going to be living in the tower and dying on the battlefeild.

You know, there are millions of people in our world and Thedas who would kill to have the living conditions of Circles mages.

I'm sure the dwarf casteless would love it a lot, doesn't make it a good thing.

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

How so? Say I burned down your house and maxed out your credit cards. Could I say that your plight was a farce cause I didn't also cut off your arms and legs?

Saying that there are other situations that are worse doesn't make the current situation any better.

Again, since a mage doesn't got it nearly as bad the Casteless or even the City Elves, it is simply ridiculous that people are trying to make it sound like they have it oh so bad. The mages are given free food, shelter and education. But it comes at a price. City Elves and Casteless are given nothing, can expect nothing and will recieve nothing, because people are too busy hearing the whine of the mages. It makes it a farce, because people are trying to make the plight of the mages something humanitarian, while still ignoring far worse humanitarian situations going on in Thedas.

You bring up a good point.

The chantry needs to be destroyed because of their crimes against mages and pushing the kingdoms of thedas to mistreat the elves and condon mistreating and discriminating against them.

Actually the Chantry are the reason the Elves aren't extinct now. The Chantry are not the reason for the fall of the Dales, the Dalish brought that upon themselves. The Chantry is however responsible for the fact that all Andrastian nations would allow the Elves to live within their cities. However, the nations themselves discriminzed against the Elves, and made sure they had to live in squalor and poverty. Not the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...
You bring up a good point.

The chantry needs to be massivly reformed because of their crimes against mages, pushing the kingdoms of thedas to mistreat the elves and condon mistreating and discriminating against them, and not doing any actions against the dwarfs crimes against their own kind and refusing to criticize them over fear of trade issues.

The Chantry has created a far more moral and secure Thedas where blood mages don't stalk the land and slavery is viewed with repugnance. The elves were as responsible as the humans for the destruction of the Dales and the dwarves are not even Andrastian. It's not the Chantry's job to solve all problems in Thedas.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ser Thrask's daughter is a prime example of an abomination without a deal with a demon. You clearly see her during the process, and at no point is she in contact with a demon. It is not like a mage can simply "think" themselves into contact with a demon. However, what we do see, is her attempting to cast a spell, and something goes wrong, and she succumbs.
And of examples of abominations unrelated to Templars: Baroness jumps to mind. The one the mage underground (which I forget what is called) in DA:O have you track down. Probably more, but can't think of any at this moment.

She wasn't trying to cast a spell she was freaking the **** out. Mages are connected to the Fade, only the evil and the desperate accept deals with demons. Demons would watch for potential victims. She panics, collapses, then transforms. How long would you expect her to think about a deal that involves, "I can save your life."

The baroness was outright evil and was screwing with the Veil in ways it should not be screwed with. The mage collective quest, if I'm right, is "Have you seen me?" and involves a man killed by a pre-existing abomination.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...

Mundanes would be second-class the same way anyone who is not a doctor is second-class. They have a different set of skills and abilities, that doesn't automatically make them all despots.

Loot at the City Elves and witness the future of mundanes if mages are free. And that is if they are lucky, the other option is Tevinter.

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...
And I say the limits go too far, forbiddening them form ever seeing their loved ones again, from ever participating in the world at all, is not limiting freedom to protect other peoples freedom, it's just an act of cruelty to subjucate people who couldn't help that they were born with magic.

Why not allow visitors to the circles? Why is that forbidden?

Why is it that templars can't simply send guards to watch over them when they escape the chantry. Or even better, send out templars once a week or two to check on the mages living outside the chantry. Make it like people on bail or parole, where they are checked on and required to check in with the chantry.

If they don't show up, or leave without telling the local chantry and templars there, or the templar who goes to check on them doesn't return, than you can go and take them in to custody or eliminate them.

It doesn't need to be the way it is, the circle is not the best way to do things anymore now that thedas has a chantry set up in practically every town and area of thedas with more than enough ability to have a templar force there to keep the mages monitored without imprisioning them inside a ****ing cage.

It's not an act of cruelty, it's necessity. Just like gun control is a necessity.

I've already admitted the Circle is not perfect but I don't like your system.
By allowing the mages to live amongst the normal population, you slow templar response and increase the number of potential victims close by. That leads to an increase number of civillians casualties when things do go bad. And they will go bad eventually.
You are putting the larger population at risk to preserve the freedoms of a few. I do not find this acceptable.

And that is without even taking into account the fact that freedom for mages can quickly lead to mundanes becoming second class citizens which is another aspect alltogether.

How exactly would mages being allowed normal rights take away rights from other people? They still can't cliam titles of power or autheority, so there's no way for them to become like the tevinter imperium, or at least it's much less likley. Unless it's the right to mistreat mages, I don't see how the normal peoples rights would be violated.

How would the templars response be slower? If anything it'll be faster since they don't need to assemble an army to march from all of thedas to the local circle, they can live in the towns and have small or medium sized response units.

How would the threat be less? We saw how much things went to **** in the tower, that seemed like a much bigger threat than the singular lone abominations that might arise. There is a more likly event that the templars would not be able to stop the mages inside the tower if the tower is compromized and the mages are all turned. Haveing them in one place allows for a much quicker spread of corruption and temptation to take place, as we saw in both games.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry has created a far more moral and secure Thedas where blood mages don't stalk the land and slavery is viewed with repugnance. The elves were as responsible as the humans for the destruction of the Dales and the dwarves are not even Andrastian. It's not the Chantry's job to solve all problems in Thedas.

So they should stop trying. The Chantry should deal with issues of the Maker and Andraste. Let the mages be watched by a seperate organization.

[WazzuMan]

We must remember that the mages themselves abusing power aren't the only potential threat. I played pro-templar just once to unlock the trophies accociated with it, and I heard Meredeth's story about her sister. If I remember correctly, she and her family did their best to shield her magics from the templars but were ill-prepared to teach her how to deal with demons.

It was the same with Arl Eamon's son, Connor, and Feynriel; their mothers kept them hidden both hidden from templars but were incapable of teaching them about the Fade and demons and using their powers responsibly. Mage Hawke and Bethany had their father, and Morrigan and her "sisters" had Flemeth to teach them the ways of magic and the Fade. Dalish elves have their Keepers. Those who have no-one to teach them are simply tempting fate and demons. Not to mention, there will always be those who abuse and misuse power.

This is why the Circle is necessary, to control magic and keep demons from entering the world, but sealing people away in a prison for most of their lives only encoruages those like Anders ( pre-Justice ) to escape in search of something better. We are talking about growing children who need to be properly cared. Look how Wynne drove her first apprentice off; they are both the better for it now but it could easily have gone the other way. And the cruelty of the Templars in Kirkwall did nothing but to further antagonise mages, which in turn resulted in even more abominations and maleficarum, which was the last thing a place like Kirkwall needed. Not to mention driving Anders/Justice to a point where he saw terrorism and war as the only option.

If one side doesn't wipe the other out, there will need to be some serious reconsideration into how the Templars and the Circle should be run so that mages feel the life of the Circle is overall all a better existance than the life of an apostate with all its risks.

I think it would help if the mages had more to live for aside from helping the Chantry/Templars deal with magical issues. If they could be a part of the community and help out, then they could feel good about being a Circle mage and even benefit from it. And the Templars can do the same, so they aren't feared and hated like Meredeth, but instead respected and appreciated.

Modifié par WazzuMan, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:16 .