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[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...
You bring up a good point.

The chantry needs to be massivly reformed because of their crimes against mages, pushing the kingdoms of thedas to mistreat the elves and condon mistreating and discriminating against them, and not doing any actions against the dwarfs crimes against their own kind and refusing to criticize them over fear of trade issues.

The Chantry has created a far more moral and secure Thedas where blood mages don't stalk the land and slavery is viewed with repugnance. The elves were as responsible as the humans for the destruction of the Dales and the dwarves are not even Andrastian. It's not the Chantry's job to solve all problems in Thedas.

They seem to act like they do, with all their talk of doing the makers will and acting infallable all the time.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Loot at the City Elves and witness the future of mundanes if mages are free. And that is if they are lucky, the other option is Tevinter.

You have a tragic view of human nature if you think that anyone with power will use it to exploit others. Some, yes, I won't deny that, but all of them?

[Auintus]

WazzuMan wrote...

We must remember that the mages themselves abusing power aren't the only potential threat. I played pro-templar just once to unlock the trophies accociated with it, and I heard Meredeth's story about her sister. If I remember correctly, she and her family did their best to shield her magics from the templars but were ill-prepared to teach her how to deal with demons.

It was the same with Arl Eamon's son, Connor, and Feynriel; their mothers kept them hidden both hidden from templars but were incapable of teaching them about the Fade and demons and using their powers responsibly. Mage Hawke and Bethany had their father, and Morrigan and her "sisters" had Flemeth to teach them the ways of magic and the Fade.

And that is why the Circle is necessary, but sealing people away in a prison for most of their lives only encoruages those like Anders ( pre-Justice ) to escape in search of something better. We are talking about growing children who need to be properly cared. Look how Wynne drove her first apprentice off; they are both the better for it now but it could easily have gone the other way. And the cruelty of the Templars in Kirkwall did nothing but to further antagonise mages, which in turn resulted in even more abominations and maleficarum, which was the last thing a place like Kirkwall needed. Not to mention driving Anders/Justice to a point where he saw terrorism and war as the only option.

If one side doesn't wipe the other out, there will need to be some serious reconsideration into how the Templars and the Circle should be run so that mages feel the life of the Circle is overall all a better existance than the life of an apostate with all its risks.

I think it would help if the mages had more to live for aside from helping the Chantry/Templars deal with magical issues. If they could be a part of the community and help out, then they could feel good about being a Circle mage and even benefit from it. And the Templars can do the same, so they aren't feared and hated like Meredeth, but instead respected and appreciated.

We were talking compromise and brought up one of the same points. Mages must be trained, but that doesn't have to involve locking them up their whole lives.

[xsdob]

Why can't people ever get that the circles just need some tweaking and everything would work out well.

But no, apparently the chantry and circles are perfect just the way they are, and any attempt to change it at all while keeping the circle around as a place to teach mages but not making it a permanent prision is just evil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ser Thrask's daughter is a prime example of an abomination without a deal with a demon. You clearly see her during the process, and at no point is she in contact with a demon. It is not like a mage can simply "think" themselves into contact with a demon. However, what we do see, is her attempting to cast a spell, and something goes wrong, and she succumbs.
And of examples of abominations unrelated to Templars: Baroness jumps to mind. The one the mage underground (which I forget what is called) in DA:O have you track down. Probably more, but can't think of any at this moment.

She wasn't trying to cast a spell she was freaking the **** out. Mages are connected to the Fade, only the evil and the desperate accept deals with demons. Demons would watch for potential victims. She panics, collapses, then transforms. How long would you expect her to think about a deal that involves, "I can save your life."

The baroness was outright evil and was screwing with the Veil in ways it should not be screwed with. The mage collective quest, if I'm right, is "Have you seen me?" and involves a man killed by a pre-existing abomination.

The collective quest, yes. A pre-existing abomination of his own apprentice. No conenction to the Tempalrs.
You clearly see that Thrask's daughter isn't in contact with any demon in that quest, and while she backs away from the thugs, her hands begins to light with fire (a la fireball), yet they cease, she stumbles and an abomination rises.. I don't care about the reasoning behind her panic, matter of fact is that she failed her spell, and a demon took advantage of her lowered defenses. Again, a demon can't just contact a mage who isn't consciously in the Fade. Unless it is itself present on Thedas. I'm also pretty sure that if a forcible possession of a mage wasn't possible, then Marethari wouldn't have been worried about Merrill becoming possessed.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:18 .

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

She wasn't trying to cast a spell she was freaking the **** out. Mages are connected to the Fade, only the evil and the desperate accept deals with demons. Demons would watch for potential victims. She panics, collapses, then transforms. How long would you expect her to think about a deal that involves, "I can save your life."

The baroness was outright evil and was screwing with the Veil in ways it should not be screwed with. The mage collective quest, if I'm right, is "Have you seen me?" and involves a man killed by a pre-existing abomination.

The collective quest, yes. A pre-existing abomination of his own apprentice. No conenction to the Tempalrs.
You clearly see that Thrask's daughter isn't in contact with any demon in that quest. I don't care about the reasoning behind her panic, matter of fact is that she failed her spell, and a demon took advantage of her lowered defenses. Again, a demon can't just contact a mage who isn't consciously in the Fade. Unless it is itself present on Thedas. I'm also pretty sure that if a forcible possession of a mage wasn't possible, then Marethari wouldn't have been worried about Merrill becoming possessed.

I never said that all abominations were connected to templars. There was the one example, one that really can't be argued, that was it. Drop it. Renold says that his apprentice was involved in "magicks unmentionable." Blood magic, demon dealing.
You can see that no demon is contacting her from the Fade? Remember that it takes a lot of energy to physically manifest without a host. Mages are constantly connected to the Fade. It's what makes them different from normal mortals.
Marethari was worried because Merril was going further and further to fix the mirror, that eventually she may have accepted the offer. If forcible possession was possible, why would a demon as powerful as Audacity waited?

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:23 .

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...
How exactly would mages being allowed normal rights take away rights from other people? They still can't cliam titles of power or autheority, so there's no way for them to become like the tevinter imperium, or at least it's much less likley. Unless it's the right to mistreat mages, I don't see how the normal peoples rights would be violated.

Rights mean little if they are not respected. There are an infinite number of situations in life that can make people lose control of themselves.
However, while a mundanes might punch some people, mages losing control of themselves means fireblasts and demons.

How would the templars response be slower? If anything it'll be faster since they don't need to assemble an army to march from all of thedas to the local circle, they can live in the towns and have small or medium sized response units.

You know, this is basic common sense. If you place a number of convicts in a closed space and place guards around it, their response time is much faster than if you place a garrison of templars in a city.
What happened at Ferelden was worst situation possible. Templars are usually quite capable of dealing with threats from inside the tower.

How would the threat be less? We saw how much things went to **** in the tower, that seemed like a much bigger threat than the singular lone abominations that might arise. There is a more likly event that the templars would not be able to stop the mages inside the tower if the tower is compromized and the mages are all turned. Haveing them in one place allows for a much quicker spread of corruption and temptation to take place, as we saw in both games.

Compare what happened in the Circle Tower and what happened in Redcliff and tell me which caused greater loss of life. And that was one demon.
Having the mages inside the tower reduces the possible of them being corrupted. The templars are always there, always watching for any signs of it.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
You have a tragic view of human nature if you think that anyone with power will use it to exploit others. Some, yes, I won't deny that, but all of them?

People with power abuse it. It's basic human nature. we just have too great a tendency towards greed and selfishness.

xsdob wrote...

Why can't people ever get that the circles just need some tweaking and everything would work out well.

But
no, apparently the chantry and circles are perfect just the way they
are, and any attempt to change it at all while keeping the circle around
as a place to teach mages but not making it a permanent prision is just
evil.

I've already admitted numerous time the Circle system is not perfect. I simply consider your system to be greatly inneficient.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

She wasn't trying to cast a spell she was freaking the **** out. Mages are connected to the Fade, only the evil and the desperate accept deals with demons. Demons would watch for potential victims. She panics, collapses, then transforms. How long would you expect her to think about a deal that involves, "I can save your life."

The baroness was outright evil and was screwing with the Veil in ways it should not be screwed with. The mage collective quest, if I'm right, is "Have you seen me?" and involves a man killed by a pre-existing abomination.

The collective quest, yes. A pre-existing abomination of his own apprentice. No conenction to the Tempalrs.
You clearly see that Thrask's daughter isn't in contact with any demon in that quest. I don't care about the reasoning behind her panic, matter of fact is that she failed her spell, and a demon took advantage of her lowered defenses. Again, a demon can't just contact a mage who isn't consciously in the Fade. Unless it is itself present on Thedas. I'm also pretty sure that if a forcible possession of a mage wasn't possible, then Marethari wouldn't have been worried about Merrill becoming possessed.

I never said that all abominations were connected to templars. There was the one example, one that really can't be argued, that was it. Drop it.
You can see that no demon is contacting her from the Fade? Remember that it takes a lot of energy to physically manifest without a host. Mages are constantly connected to the Fade. It's what makes them different from normal mortals.
Marethari was worried because Merril was going further and further to fix the mirror, that eventually she may have accepted the offer. If forcible possession was possible, why would a demon as powerful as Audacity waited?

A common misconception. Mages aren't in constant contact with denizens of the Fade, or even "present" in the Fade constantly. Mages are unique in the fact that they can consciously enter the Fade, but doing so requires a  lot of lyrium, or blood magic. Also whenver they cast a spell, they aren't in contact with the Fade, but rather they allow the Fade to flow through them and manifest as magical spells.

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...
How exactly would mages being allowed normal rights take away rights from other people? They still can't cliam titles of power or autheority, so there's no way for them to become like the tevinter imperium, or at least it's much less likley. Unless it's the right to mistreat mages, I don't see how the normal peoples rights would be violated.

Rights mean little if they are not respected. There are an infinite number of situations in life that can make people lose control of themselves.
However, while a mundanes might punch some people, mages losing control of themselves means fireblasts and demons.

How would the templars response be slower? If anything it'll be faster since they don't need to assemble an army to march from all of thedas to the local circle, they can live in the towns and have small or medium sized response units.

You know, this is basic common sense. If you place a number of convicts in a closed space and place guards around it, their response time is much faster than if you place a garrison of templars in a city.
What happened at Ferelden was worst situation possible. Templars are usually quite capable of dealing with threats from inside the tower.

How would the threat be less? We saw how much things went to **** in the tower, that seemed like a much bigger threat than the singular lone abominations that might arise. There is a more likly event that the templars would not be able to stop the mages inside the tower if the tower is compromized and the mages are all turned. Haveing them in one place allows for a much quicker spread of corruption and temptation to take place, as we saw in both games.

Compare what happened in the Circle Tower and what happened in Redcliff and tell me which caused greater loss of life. And that was one demon.
Having the mages inside the tower reduces the possible of them being corrupted. The templars are always there, always watching for any signs of it.

Arguing with you is impossible, because you have already decided that all mages are criminals and deserve no rights. Your language of calling them prisioners and convicts proves such.

You see no wrong in violating their rights and seek no alternative means, merely continued subjucation to support a 1000 year status quo that is no longer relevent.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

People with power abuse it. It's basic human nature. we just have too great a tendency towards greed and selfishness.

"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."~Malcolm Hawke. There is such a thing as a decent human being.

[xsdob]

I think I'm gonna step back from this and judge for myself whose in the right when DA3 comes out. This is just getting me too riled up to be good for my health.

[MisterJB]

xsdob wrote...
Arguing with you is impossible, because you have already decided that all mages are criminals and deserve no rights. Your language of calling them prisioners and convicts proves such.

Stop distorting my words. I've decided that all mages are dangerous and thus, their freedoms must be limited. Just like my freedoms are limited because I'm dangerous. I can't buy a panzer tank and keep it in my front lawn. I can't decide to drive in the wrong side of the road because I feel like to.

You see no wrong in violating their rights and seek no alternative means, merely continued subjucation to support a 1000 year status quo that is no longer relevent.

I have already proposed a more lenient Circle system. I'm just not willing under any circunstances whatsoever to allow mages to live outside of the tower.

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...

"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."~Malcolm Hawke. There is such a thing as a decent human being.

Malcolm is the best mages have to offer. People like him are extremely rare, however.
And Malcolm was never in any position of power. In a world where mages are free, he could have turned out much differently.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A common misconception. Mages aren't in constant contact with denizens of the Fade, or even "present" in the Fade constantly. Mages are unique in the fact that they can consciously enter the Fade, but doing so requires a  lot of lyrium, or blood magic. Also whenver they cast a spell, they aren't in contact with the Fade, but rather they allow the Fade to flow through them and manifest as magical spells.

If its flowing through them, they are in contact with it. I think that explains itself.
I can touch the Fade whenever I want. "Fade Shroud". Contact, not immersion, but enough for a connection.

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

xsdob wrote...
Arguing with you is impossible, because you have already decided that all mages are criminals and deserve no rights. Your language of calling them prisioners and convicts proves such.

Stop distorting my words. I've decided that all mages are dangerous and thus, their freedoms must be limited. Just like my freedoms are limited because I'm dangerous. I can't buy a panzer tank and keep it in my front lawn. I can't decide to drive in the wrong side of the road because I feel like to.

You see no wrong in violating their rights and seek no alternative means, merely continued subjucation to support a 1000 year status quo that is no longer relevent.

I have already proposed a more lenient Circle system. I'm just not willing under any circunstances whatsoever to allow mages to live outside of the tower.

You did? When? Would you mind posting it again?

[MisterJB]

Middle of page 6.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Malcolm is the best mages have to offer. People like him are extremely rare, however.
And Malcolm was never in any position of power. In a world where mages are free, he could have turned out much differently.

Mages would never be in a position of power. I'm not suggesting they walk around completely unchecked. They'd be your average citizen with very unique skills and the thought that if they ever turned criminal, templars with their phylactery and unburdened from watching over every single mage could and would hunt them down.
Also, "Jowan's Intention" It's bugged, but it's on Youtube. Leyvn's being quite good with magic.

@xsdob I like mine better, but his is pretty good.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[MisterJB]

Average citizen? C'mon. These are people who can do anything mundanes can faster and better.
An exceptional mundane might be able to keep up but an average mage will always have more ways to improve himself than an average mundane.

As for criminal mages, them being hunted is little consolation for their victims. And mages have more ways to hide their crimes than mundanes.

[xsdob]

MisterJB wrote...

First, I would attempt to turn the Circle into a more welcoming and humane instution for both mages and mundanes. Mages would be allowed to receive visits both parental and conjugal so as to desmitify much of the mistery and fear that surrounds the Circle. Recreational visits to cities would be allowed so long as the mages are accompanied by experienced templars. Marriages and procreation with other mages and mundanes (met during the aforementioned visits, I imagine) would be allowed so long as the mage understand the hardships of mantaining relationships from inside the circle and that mundane childs would have to be given to someone from outside of the Circle to look after. Also, only one mage child per couple.

Mages sending letters to the exterior would be permitted but those letters would be opened and read to ensure no plan of escape is being fomented.

The weakest of mages could choose to not go through the Harrowing but they would also not have acess to the same privileges of other mages.

Under no circunstances would I allow a mage to live outside of the Circle. Shale's owner, for instance, was allowed and his grandchild was in risk of being possessed by a demon.

Seems like almost everything I was saying should happen along with other people, just more basic rights.

The living outside the chantry is something I feel is important, but if this were an imporvment offered in the game, I'd be okay with it.

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Average citizen? C'mon. These are people who can do anything mundanes can faster and better.
An exceptional mundane might be able to keep up but an average mage will always have more ways to improve himself than an average mundane.

As for criminal mages, them being hunted is little consolation for their victims. And mages have more ways to hide their crimes than mundanes.

Blacksmith? Apothacary? Even a mage needs to put skill points into that kind of stuff. It takes skill to do it, not just magic. In terms of skill, which takes more time than anything else, any mundane could match a mage.
Anyone can kill someone and their capture means jack to their victims. Cleaning up a crime is, again, more a matter of knowing what you are doing.

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

Seems like almost everything I was saying should happen along with other people, just more basic rights.

The living outside the chantry is something I feel is important, but if this were an imporvment offered in the game, I'd be okay with it.

Mine a few posts up from his, might be more to your liking. Though, I think his is far more fair than the current system.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[Palipride47]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

ANOTHER thread?

I'm not even concerned about who's right, I'm just concerned about the sanity of those who keep making these threads.

LOL.  

I do have to applaud the writers for their meta-achievement in producing a real-life split between mage and templar supporters, some of whom are fervent enough in their opinions to make Meredith and Anders proud.

Personally, I just want the mages and templars to shut up, sit down with a nice cup of tea, and stop killing everyone 

Right, the rabid allegiance to one side or another kinda reminds me of some important election happening in some Western Hemisphere country.....can't put my finger on it, though. 

[MisterJB]

Gleam, or something, a young mage from the comics was taught by her adoptive father, a blacksmith. She, tough young and unexperienced when compared with him, uses her magic to create metal far above anything the dwarves produce. So yes, mages will always have an edge.

Anyone can kill but not anyone can lauch fireballs with their minds.

Sure but blood magic would help greatly in covering crimes.

[Josielyn]

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.