817 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

MisterJB wrote...

Gleam, or something, a young mage from the comics was taught by her adoptive father, a blacksmith. She, tough young and unexperienced when compared with him, uses her magic to create metal far above anything the dwarves produce. So yes, mages will always have an edge.

Anyone can kill but not anyone can lauch fireballs with their minds.

Sure but blood magic would help greatly in covering crimes.

Never heard about that, sounds like mages are just an evolutionary advancement...That probably didn't sound very good. Most mages would be raised in the Circle. Therefore, most would default to skills reserved to magic. Not all, but those would likely be sufficiently few. And who would complain about better-quality swords!

Dead's dead either way. Only difference is: one ends with a charred corpse and the other ends with a hole in your back.
I won't argue with that, but anyone can clean up a crime.

[Auintus]

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

They are properly trained and never pushed to the desperate extremes of Circle mages. The lack of a cage and feeling of home that the Dalish experience probably helps. Lower numbers of mages, too. I'm sure they've had a few abominations.

[Palipride47]

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

I think it has something to do with this exchange: 

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Circle mages are trained to trust the spirits and resist the demons. Templars closely watch the spirit healers because of this.

But Circle mages may fall into complacency (like Anders did with Justice - if you play DAA, Justice starts to like the mortal world and feel jealousy, and even admits that is what a demon would feel).

They trust too much, and then they become possessed. Because the spirits are believed to be the epitome of the good aspects of humanity. The Dalish never thought of the spirits that way, so they trust none of them (in theory)

Modifié par Palipride47, 07 novembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[BlueMagitek]

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

1)  Different culture.  A lot more emphasis on everyone in the clan being part of the family.  Nomadic too,  not so reliant on gold or their goods as much as their halla.
2) The mages are in positions of power already.  The Keeper and First(s?) system.
3) There are Keeper abominations.  They were mentioned.  Basically the whole clan works to kill them.
4) Keeper crimes can go on for a very long time without surfacing (take, for example, the entire Werewolf issue in DA:O).

[ledod]

Palipride47 wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

I think it has something to do with this exchange: 

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Circle mages are trained to trust the spirits and resist the demons. Templars closely watch the spirit healers because of this.

But Circle mages may fall into complacency (like Anders did with Justice - if you play DAA, Justice starts to like the mortal world and feel jealousy, and even admits that is what a demon would feel).

They trust too much, and then they become possessed. Because the spirits are believed to be the epitome of the good aspects of humanity. The Dalish never thought of the spirits that way, so they trust none of them (in theory)

Interesting. Perhaps the Dalish having a greater understanding of the spirits is a result of their fabled immortality: Primordial elves are a direct contradiction to spirits, constant/unchanging- there must be something more 'there'.

[Shadow Fox]

Palipride47 wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

I think it has something to do with this exchange: 

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Circle mages are trained to trust the spirits and resist the demons. Templars closely watch the spirit healers because of this.

But Circle mages may fall into complacency (like Anders did with Justice - if you play DAA, Justice starts to like the mortal world and feel jealousy, and even admits that is what a demon would feel).

They trust too much, and then they become possessed. Because the spirits are believed to be the epitome of the good aspects of humanity. The Dalish never thought of the spirits that way, so they trust none of them (in theory)

Well spirits do generally manifst as mortal virtues which are considered good things the problem is they are taken to absoulute extremes which can make them little better than demons.

Plus considering what Merril's actions lead to I question the worth of what she says in regards to them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Magic is not the problem any more than guns are the problem. Like with a gun, they should be trained and the mage's superiors should be confident that they won't be a problem.
A mage should be allowed to rely on magic in a desperate situation. The situations in which accepting a demon's offer is the only way out were only ever the result of templars.
The yes/no isn't presented to the mage, but to the enchanter teaching them. Ideally, one throughout their entire training, one that knows them, and knows what kind of moral risk they pose.

Magic is the problem. Quit living in dreamland.

Mages succumbing has no direct correlation to templars. Never has. Mages have become abominations long before the templar order was fromed.

And training and "their tutor knows them" doesnt' work. We've already seen it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

xsdob wrote...

And I say the limits go too far, forbiddening them form ever seeing their loved ones again, from ever participating in the world at all, is not limiting freedom to protect other peoples freedom, it's just an act of cruelty to subjucate people who couldn't help that they were born with magic.

Why not allow visitors to the circles? Why is that forbidden?

For the most part it is not forbidden. We have examples of parents visiting children AND examples of mages let out of the Circles on occasions.


But for the most part it won't happen.
You have to remember, these are the middle ages.
Common folk don't have the luxury to "take a week off" and take a week-long trip to the tower.

Why is it that templars can't simply send guards to watch over them when they escape the chantry.

Because tehy escaped? You usually send guards to bring them back.
Not to mention you'd need a whole squad of templars per mage.

Or even better, send out templars once a week or two to check on the mages living outside the chantry. Make it like people on bail or parole, where they are checked on and required to check in with the chantry.

If they don't show up, or leave without telling the local chantry and templars there, or the templar who goes to check on them doesn't return, than you can go and take them in to custody or eliminate them.

Horribly ineffective.
If a mage goes rogue, he can take out an entire village and dissaper before anyone finds out. By that point hte damage is done and people are dead. The point of Circles of prevention.

As I said before, you'd have to have a squad of templars following a mage everywhere for it to come even close to the security a Circle provides.

It doesn't need to be the way it is, the circle is not the best way to do things anymore now that thedas has a chantry set up in practically every town and area of thedas with more than enough ability to have a templar force there to keep the mages monitored without imprisioning them inside a ****ing cage.

Wont' work.
It would be a logistical clusterf**** even in todays world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It makes the "plight of the mages" a farce....

Because the man with a full stomach and no shelter in the middle of winter thinks "Well, at least I'm not starving."<_<

Perhaps he should look at his fellow who is starving, and realize, perhaps I don't got it all that bad as I thought. Luxury is the breeding ground for malcontent after all.

I..I...no, just no. Something is not automatically okay just because someone else has it worse.

It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

[Lotion Soronarr]

MisterJB wrote...

Gleam, or something, a young mage from the comics was taught by her adoptive father, a blacksmith. She, tough young and unexperienced when compared with him, uses her magic to create metal far above anything the dwarves produce. So yes, mages will always have an edge.

Comics are garbage not written by the original writers.
FFS, they had Gregoir - a caring and sensible templar - beat up a pregnant women...because the writer wanted to villify him.

As far as I'm concerened they don't exist.

[The Elder King]

Palipride47 wrote...



I think it has something to do with this exchange: 

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Circle mages are trained to trust the spirits and resist the demons. Templars closely watch the spirit healers because of this.

But Circle mages may fall into complacency (like Anders did with Justice - if you play DAA, Justice starts to like the mortal world and feel jealousy, and even admits that is what a demon would feel).

They trust too much, and then they become possessed. Because the spirits are believed to be the epitome of the good aspects of humanity. The Dalish never thought of the spirits that way, so they trust none of them (in theory)

We had only two examples in-game of spirit possession: Wynne and Anders. In the first one the possession was accidental, in the second it was intentional (with the consent of the host).
And while I didn't like much Justice in DAA, and despite the fact I'd like to meet it again and permanently kill it if it's not already dead after DA2 (in my playthrough, at least), Justice didn't didn't want to become a demon. It feared that. I think that it the idea of merging was idiotic (Justice's model of "justice" is too extremistic or idealistic for the mortal realm. It's like Samara for the other species in ME), I think he wanted to help Anders.
The reason why the merge between Anders and Justice went horribly wrong (at least in my opinion), and Wynne-"Faith" merging didn't create much problems was that Anders's rage and negative emotions corrupted Justice. Wynne didn't have much negative emotions, and/or maybe the spirit was stronger than Justice in blocking the influence of the Wynne's emotions over it. Regardless the fact that I think that merging with spirits isn't a good idea, Anders isn't a person which should merge with a spirit.
About the dalish, the fact that they believe that every spirit is dangerous doesn't mean much. As far as we know spirit possession outiside Rivain is extremely rate, and there isn't much knowledge about it. Mages generally don't allow spirit to possess them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

....
Have we been palying the same game?

DA:O - without the Warden, Zathriens dooms his clan
DA2 - Metharari turns into abomination and would have decimated her clan if Hawke doesn't stop her

Let's also not forget the lore that states that Keepers can turn into abominations and that Dalish clans sometimes dissaper wihout a trace.

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

I don't think that riots and rebellions from the peasants didn't happen in Thedas. And I think there were peasants whining in both games. It would be illogical that they'd accept everything that happen to them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Dead's dead either way. Only difference is: one ends with a charred corpse and the other ends with a hole in your back.
I won't argue with that, but anyone can clean up a crime.

Blood mage: Slit your throat.
Victim: O.K.

Investigator: Looks like suicide.

.....

A blood mage would drive even modern CSI investiagors crazy..let alone the investigaors of middle ages.

[Mystch3vi0us]

@Lotion My hero!

     No but seriously, I get the feeling that most of these people protesting for mage rights are really viewing this situation as if they were a mage.  Instead of looking at a situation rationally they are using modern day ethics and empathy to decide on what should be done.  Why don't you guys try to view things from the other side. 

     How would you react if a member of your family were killed by a mage as colateral damage.  Not even the intended victim?  How would you feel if a mage child from another family were taken from it's home and given the best food/health care/education around while your children (this is the middle ages after all) more than likely succumbed to any number of viruses?  And how would you feel knowing that even well intentioned mages were a potential threat to you and your family just because they were a mage.  Nothing they can do can 100% of the time ensure that they won't be possesed by a demon and enslave torture and kill you and your faimly? 

     If the words fear and anger never pop up your lying and what is truely sad is that I'm only mentioning the good mages.  This doesn't even include those with horrible ambition, malice, and the truely crazies.  

Modifié par Mystch3vi0us, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

I don't think that riots and rebellions from the peasants didn't happen in Thedas. And I think there were peasants whining in both games. It would be illogical that they'd accept everything that happen to them.

Riots and rebellions do happen..when things go really bad.

But the common folk on TheDas live in the conditions I described. Are the complaining? Maybe a little. Are they rebelling? Nope.
They accepted their lot in life and do the best with what tehy have.

Many mages don't. In some ways they have it far better than common folk. In some cases worse.
Overall they don't have a bad life (or at least, not worse than a regular pesant), as many mages are happy in the Circles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

@Lotion My hero!

Investigator Cleetus: We sure have a lot of deaths here lately. Suiside, spontanious combustion, freezing to deth in summer.....weird

Investigator Bubba: Yup. Wonder what's causing it. Maybe spellery?

Investigator Cleetus: I ain't seen a mage around these parts. Besides, do we have any clues at all?

Investigator Bubba: Maybe we could make a DNA test on this pipe we found?

Investigator Cleetus: Bubba, you retard! DNA anylsis isn't invented yet. Besides, what you're gonna compare the results to?

Investigator Bubba: Hm..you're right. Guess we don't have nothing. Should we question the eye witness again?

Investigator Cleetus: Wouldn't hurt.... there he is
Investigator Cleetus: Excuse me citizen. We have a few more questions regarding the lasest string of death in out fair town. You wouldn't have happened to see a mage a sulking around?

Blood Mage: I am not the blood mage you're looking for.

Investigator Cleetus: You're not the blood mage we're looking for.

Blood Mage:  In fact, forget about the whole idea. No mages. Especially no blood mages. Thinking that mages did it is stupid.

Investigator Cleetus: Yes. That idea is stupid. What where we thinking?

Blood Mage: Good. now run along...oh, and slit your throats once you get home.

Investigator Cleetus:  Allright.
Investigator Bubba: What a fine upstanding citizen. We need more people like him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

So how in the world of Thedas have the Dalish managed to control their Keepers in training without having their entire clans decimated by Abominations or Blood mages? They don't have any Templars, but then, maybe their worshipping the old gods has something to do with their lack of issues.

They are properly trained and never pushed to the desperate extremes of Circle mages. The lack of a cage and feeling of home that the Dalish experience probably helps. Lower numbers of mages, too. I'm sure they've had a few abominations.

Or it could be because... You know... There are fewer Dalish mages, thus incidently tehre would also be fewer Dalish abominations. Abominations are already rare as it is, in no small part because of the Circle and the Templars, so it stands to reason that the Dalish would have even fewer Abominations, since they got fewer mages. Besides, abomination DO happen to Dalish clans so the entire argument is moot...

[ledod]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Or it could be because... You know... There are fewer Dalish mages, thus incidently tehre would also be fewer Dalish abominations. Abominations are already rare as it is, in no small part because of the Circle and the Templars, so it stands to reason that the Dalish would have even fewer Abominations, since they got fewer mages. Besides, abomination DO happen to Dalish clans so the entire argument is moot...

I think abominations are no less-common among the Dalish. According to Merrill, reputable by 'First" status, that in addition to abominations being recognized, possesed Dalish mages are also eradicated by the tribe. I believe "hunted down" is the jargon Merrill chose to use when refering to Dalish abominations.

It should be noted, however, the Dalish do not fear mage imprisonment, as huan parents do, thus there may be less 'untrained' mages within their ranks. Many of the mages from DA 2 that succumbed were either in states of extreme stress, or merely untrained.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Gleam, or something, a young mage from the comics was taught by her adoptive father, a blacksmith. She, tough young and unexperienced when compared with him, uses her magic to create metal far above anything the dwarves produce. So yes, mages will always have an edge.

Anyone can kill but not anyone can lauch fireballs with their minds.

Sure but blood magic would help greatly in covering crimes.

Who cares? Its a problem of the mundanes not the mages.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Who cares? Its a problem of the mundanes not the mages.

And thus mundanes are fixing the problem by locking the mages.
Something I think the qunari have a good point.

[Plaintiff]

To answer the OP, the only time I've ever heard of the Chantry making use of magic in the lore was when it suited the goals of the organization to do so: ie, in war, to obtain a military edge.

I think it's extremely obvious (even if it's not explicitly stated) that the Chantry deliberately isolates mages and limits public access to magical services because it doesn't want the public getting too fond of mages.

Magic, and thus, mages, are the most powerful and valuable resource in all of Thedas. It's a constantly self-renewing energy source that can be used to perform tasks far beyond even our own current technological capabilities. Its potential for destruction is incredible, but so is its potential benefit.

Whoever controls the mages controls the world, essentially. The Chantry doesn't lock the mages up out of pure altruism, it does it because it wants to selfishly hoard the power for itself. Chantry dogma deliberately emphsaizes the "evils" of magic and fails to mention the many ways that it can and has helped their society. If more of the uneducated rubes who populate Thedas were made aware of the myriad of ways that magic could improve their lives, they might demand that the Chantry relinquish control.

[DKJaigen]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

@Lotion My hero!

     No but seriously, I get the feeling that most of these people protesting for mage rights are really viewing this situation as if they were a mage.  Instead of looking at a situation rationally they are using modern day ethics and empathy to decide on what should be done.  Why don't you guys try to view things from the other side. 

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it. And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so. Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Who cares? Its a problem of the mundanes not the mages.

And thus mundanes are fixing the problem by locking the mages.
Something I think the qunari have a good point.

And then the mages said: no more! and set the world on fire.  The templars will always lose. either the mages destroy them or the enemies of humanity destroy them.

[Fast Jimmy]

DKJaigen wrote...

 The templars will always lose. either the mages destroy them or the enemies of humanity destroy them.

I'm no Templar fan, but... what?

The Dwarves are on the verge of extinction being pressed against the Darkspawn. The Elves are a scattered, shattered and completely un-united race with no chance of being pulled under one banner any time soon.

The only "enemy of humanity" out there is the Qunari. And the Circle has shown (as in the case of the Kirkwall invasion) that the second they are under an invasion, the chains come off of the mages, as seen by the fact that Meredith and Orsino are out in the streets working together within hours of the invasion starting.


I'm hardly a Pro-Templar guy, but saying that Mages need to be free to fight other races sees a bit extreme. Specifically since mages can be elvish, human or Kossith.