104 réponses à ce sujet

[OldTimeRadio]

One of the many projects I mess around with is the idea of a simple team game of some sort where the players are all the same level, never gain XP and basically the goal is winning matches and maybe progressing the character in other ways.

Probably the closest approximation people would think of is something like Team Fortress 2.  Or really, any kind of class-based team game.

Now, I've had this idea on the shelf a long time and never really done anything with it and I've spent so much time modding NWN I'm incredibly rusty at character builds.

So I need your help and your wisdom!

I realize there probably isn't a "sweet spot" if every player on a server were to be the same level but I'm sure some spots are sweeter than others, right?  Off the top of my head I vaguely recall reading up on this and coming in at the  low teens.  Like 13-14.  I'm looking for something less than 18, level-wise, if that helps.

If you do speak up, and I hope you do, can you give a little run-down on how you came to that conclusion?  Feel free to include several specific levels if you think there are more than one to choose from.

[Shadooow]

depens also on environment - low magic makes always casters more powerfull than rest characters

if you dont take this into consideration then lvl 20 or 40

in lvl 20, there isnt so many imbalanced build combinations possible, but casters are still bit better than rest - this difference is erased at 40 because spell power almost doesn't grow after lvl 25

less than 20 will make casters only better than rest characters because they get less attacks, if you need less than set it to your limit 18 at least

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 05 novembre 2012 - 09:01 .

[henesua]

I think the sweet spot for fun is in the mid level range 7-15. If you need to balance out the casters with everyone else, you can do it with starting equipment.

To balance out fighter types with caster types in Arnheim I made default armor more powerful. All armor has damage resistance versus basic damage types: Bludgeon, Pierce, Slash. This seems to make a good deal of difference, and adds in the Call of Cthulu/Rune Quest type of armor which I always preferred to D&D's AC. To give bards a leg up, i removed somatic components from some critical spells - charms, healing, and some bard only spells.

Anyway, I doubt you'll be tweaking your mod to that level, but just in case, I thought it worth while to throw in.

[MagicalMaster]

Closest in power in what way?

1v1 fights? Killing a bunch of monsters in a single spawn? Killing a bunch of monsters continuously?

Do you also have any specific sort of power level for gear you're looking for?

As a general rule and low to medium magic, melee tend to be more powerful prior to level 6-7, it's somewhat even from then until 13-14, then casters pull far ahead. This is due to not only higher level spells, but also more OF those spells and longer duration.

[Frimbleglim]

What Magical Master said with the exception of cleric/druid. A level 1 cleric level 1 druid with the animal domain is ridiculously powerful compared with almost every other level 2 character. They get 2 animals to assist them one of which is one level higher than anyone else can summon. they can also dominate random wildlife. This doesn't really change much until about level 5

I have come to think of it as a test of a good server to see if it is possible to solo as a wizard/sorcerer or bard at level 1. If wizards can't reach level 7 on a server someone hasn't been paying enough attention.

[OldTimeRadio]

Thanks for the opinions so far!  I appreciate it a lot! 

MagicalMaster, I was sort of thinking of a comparison where the characters had no gear at all or exceptionally simple default gear, and mostly where the melee attacks started to get balanced out by more powerful spellcasting.  I'm not sure if I had a specific method in mind (i.e. 1v1, per spawn, etc.) except some fuzzy idea of the damage averaging out over say 4-6 rounds vs a combat dummy and no restriction on how that damage was inflicted, whether melee or spells.

@Frimbleglim - I don't play wizards all that much but I sure know what you're talking about!

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 06 novembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

I've always liked level 12 for a cap in low magic environments. Everyone gets one last feat. Skills like tumble and spellcraft can be topped off at 15 for the +1 per 5 ranks of improvement they offer. Fighter classes will have 3 attacks per round. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcs will all have 6th level spells. Rogues get one special feat. No single character is overpowering, but a party of 4 with a fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard/sorc can handle just about anything.

[HipMaestro]

Still not quite sure if this is a PvM, PvP or PvE question, OTR.  Also, not sure if you are interested in comparing the pure base classes or all the hybrid MC permutations in between.  2 very difference considerations.

There are lots of variables, though and I am assuming you mean under vanilla v1.69, right?

Don't disregard rogue (and ranger to some degree as well) who can set simple traps that can achieve DCs that are just about impossible for other classes to detect, let alone disarm.  For example, either level 2 elven or halfling rogue or ranger electing Skill Focus: Set Trap can set a vanilla Deadly Electrical or Deadly Fire trap with a detect DC of 37.  So even with Skill Focus: Search and INT of 18, the best detection of any level 2 opposing character (including another rogue or ranger) would be d20 + 5 Search + SF 3 + INT 4 or 32 (max) vs. 37 with more than enough damage to one-hit kill just about any level 2 character and their entire party if bunched together.  And it just gets more unbalanced as the trapper's levels mount up because the d20 constant becomes less significant.  IIRC correctly, detection DCs of around 125 can be reached (though it's been a while since I went a-trappin').

Now, the Find Traps spell nerfs the trap's offense pretty well, (even epic ones, btw) but either the caster would need to be launching the spell each time they took a few steps (10 meter radius IIRC), keep casting sacrificial summons ahead and retrieving them or constantly possess their familiar to do the scouting (and dying, obviously), but only if sorc or wiz.

No.  Trapping will unbalance just about all confrontations if Set Trap is that character's class skill.  I see traps nerfed all the time on servers, probably for that exact reason.  Divine Immunity is extremely rare except on uber-magic servers so otherwise Holy traps cannot be saved against.

[OldTimeRadio]

Thank you Gregor, that's just the kind of suggestion/explanation I was looking for.

Is there another level between 12 and 20 where the planets sort of line up like they do at 12?

[OldTimeRadio]

@HipMaestro - I'm afraid the nebulous nature of the idea and my ignorance aren't allowing me to clarify my question.  Gregor's suggestion and the explanation he gave- that's the kind of thing I was fishing for, though.  Basically, a level at which players are somewhat near to each other in regards to melee and spells balancing out.  I can say that what I'm thinking of is not really about PVP- not the kind of atomic scrutiny that occurs with PVP builds.  I suppose technically the whole idea might turn out of be about PVP, but it could also wind up going team PvE or something like that.    I'm trying to find a good median level so that the base classes will at least have a chance to come into their own.  I'd love your thoughts on the topic but I can get awfully tongue-tied trying to ask questions sometimes.

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 06 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[HipMaestro]

OldTimeRadio wrote...
@HipMaestro - --clip-- Gregor's suggestion and the explanation he gave- that's the kind of thing I was fishing for, though.  Basically, a level at which players are somewhat near to each other in regards to melee and spells balancing out.  I can say that what I'm thinking of is not really about PVP- not the kind of atomic scrutiny that occurs with PVP builds.  I suppose technically the whole idea might turn out of be about PVP, but it could also wind up going team PvE or something like that.    I'm trying to find a good median level so that the base classes will at least have a chance to come into their own.  --clip--

I'd limit the comparison metric to either number of enemies killed per round and/or maximum CR of monsters that can be killed at a certain level to try to glean any comparisons. Otherwise, you're into PvP territory and the scope will enlarge exponentially. Once you begin to factor in summons, dominated creatures and such it can become involved.  Rogue gets UMD so can mimic both arcane and divine casting to some degree as well. 

Well, I think it would need to be a bit higher than Level 12.   If I had to choose, at Level 12 the most likely to succeed in the class olympics I'd pick a pure cleric or cleric combo (like a rogue dump level for enough UMD to use breach scrolls).  The domains are extremely overpowering at low levels before the attack and defense of other classes begin to catch up.  If enemy SRs are too elevated for effective offensive spellcasting, clerics can always self-buff for significant periods and melee with the best of the fighting classes and are not limited to a few moments of True Strike to hit something like sorc or wiz.  A level 12 cleric with Travel & Trickery can haste for 24 rnds per cast (extended) with 50% concealment, and with Divine Power in effect, will be hitting more often and harder, penetrating DR (up to +4 @Lvl 12 with GMW) than any other class... which seems a terribly unbalancing class characteristic to me at Level 12.  After Level 15, a cleric's dominance in melee begins to approach the other fighter-type capacities since all its buffs have maxed at that point.

I wouldn't know how to balance all of them together, but just to move ahead of a battle cleric's potential, you'd need to take advantage of their main design weakness... feat starvation.  Clerics gain little in epic levels other than spell DC, some magical defenses and spell duration.  So IMO, you'd need to find a level where cleric has maxed combat potential, begins to lag behind a lot featwise and yet before arcanists become too powerful... before they qualify for epic spells I suppose.

This is actually one of those eternal NWN debates isn't it?    Still interesting to hear it hashed out again, though.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[Frimbleglim]

I would still say a level 1 cleric (animal and whatever) level 11 druid would beat a straight 12 cleric. The cleric/druid gets to cast a level 7 spell at level 12 in effect (summon monster 7) and he gets an animal companion.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

OldTimeRadio wrote...

Thank you Gregor, that's just the kind of suggestion/explanation I was looking for.

Is there another level between 12 and 20 where the planets sort of line up like they do at 12?

You're welcome.

I don't think so. Others have differing opinions, obviously.

Once the caster classes get to higher levels they become so overpowering you run in to the situation I've seen on most PW's. The builders/scripters are running around trying to find some way to "balance" the server. They bring out the nerf bat and start toning down spells. They try to come up with medium to high magic equipment for the non-caster classes to even up the playing field. From that point it's just a constant frantic scramble in an effort to find the ever illusive "balance" that's impossible to achieve. Keeps 'em busy, though. ;^)

 

[WebShaman]

First of all, in D&D the classes are not balanced, and are not supposed to be. They are supposed to have "inherent" weaknesses so that a party is necessary to succeed.

With that in mind, in other than a high magic environment, a Wizard wins, hands down. The Multiclass Melee Mage beats out everything at any level. With the spells, it out-fights a fighter, out-does a CoD (even an Animal Summons CoD, because a Wizard can also take a one level dump in Cleric and use it as well!) and basically does everything else better.

Exceptions here will be Epic Traps, I believe (only being able to be disarmed by Rogues) and such, but then, that goes back to the whole Party idea that is central to D&D.

IMHO, there are no level ranges where the classes are close in power to one another (meaning that they are all considered, more or less, on equal footing). You would really need to do some tweaking to get it to be like this, Items, Spells, etc.

For the best (IMHO) adventuring levels, well, that has already been stated (7-15). Since these levels leave out some of the more complex D&D issues, it is much easier to design adventures for these levels, and it is easier to change things without having massive balance issues pop up.

[Frimbleglim]

I disagree. Multiclass Melee mages don't really work at low level. I know this because I play them. (and love playing them) but higher spell levels are always worth having, more so than Armour proficiency or damage reduction (at low level).

Further Sorcerer beats wizard in my experience at least. Flexibiltiy on the fly beats flexibility in preparation. And more of the good spells beats less but more varied spells. Skill points are neither here nor there.

Of course If you have a level 12 MMM build that can beat the druid with a dump level in cleric I'd love to see it. In fact I eagerly await your reply.

[henesua]

WebShaman wrote...

First of all, in D&D the classes are not balanced, and are not supposed to be. They are supposed to have "inherent" weaknesses so that a party is necessary to succeed.

I agree with this. And given your goals, OTR, to have ballanced team versus team play I think its all that matters. It would be interesting if you could design the module to favor a diverse array of abilities.

[Shadooow]

Frimbleglim wrote...

I disagree. Multiclass Melee mages don't really work at low level. I know this because I play them. (and love playing them) but higher spell levels are always worth having, more so than Armour proficiency or damage reduction (at low level).

Further Sorcerer beats wizard in my experience at least. Flexibiltiy on the fly beats flexibility in preparation. And more of the good spells beats less but more varied spells. Skill points are neither here nor there.

Of course If you have a level 12 MMM build that can beat the druid with a dump level in cleric I'd love to see it. In fact I eagerly await your reply.

actually, mages using melee weapons are pretty common and mostly only mages seen in low magic settings wich very restricted rest

its all about environment, in serious action environment, MMM isnt even playable - two attacks with no ab is really useless, but in the SP modules or this low magic PWs monsters usually dont have AC so high, haste is nonexistant and weapons are so crappy that gmw+flame weapon outshines them - in such environment this is possible.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[OldTimeRadio]

Thank you for the continued suggestions and explanations!  I appreciate the opinions, even those who pointed out that the quesion itsefl isn't answerable from some standpoints.

[MagicalMaster]

A major factor is how often you rest. A spellcaster who has all spells available is drastically different from a spellcaster with 1/4 spells available.

A melee character, on the flip side, is far less limited. A fighter never needs to rest if he has healing potions.

So if you have a fully rested and potentially buffed mage, that's drastically more powerful than one with some buffs gone and many spells depleted.

[Frimbleglim]

In theory a mage never has to rest either if he has scrolls. For some reason I never see scrolls used much though.

[MagicalMaster]

A level 10 mage using a Fireball scroll casts it as a level 5 spell and with a much lower DC. Scrolls also cannot be hasted. That's why.

[NWN_baba yaga]

hey guys, if you plan to do some online karnage let me know. I would love to meet you once in my lifetime ingame and kill you all:D So count me in for that... i never ever played online and thats the best thing i can imagine:)

[WebShaman]

in other than a high magic environment, a Wizard wins, hands down

This still remains true, after all these years. In a high magic environment, magic items overwhelm the advantages of a Wizard - the higher the magic level, the more the effect.

Fighters (re: melee types) tend to suffer from the |immunity to X| problem, really. And all the M0bs doing damage, needing to be constantly healed. Granted, in an environment where healing is plentiful (meaning unlimited, really), then this problem is for melee characters less.

A Melee Mage (especially a MMM) of course makes use of melee, to smack their way through the m0bs to get to the Boss without depleting their spells, making rest a non-issue (which is why I created the MM in the first place - due to limited resting).

A MMM is much more flexible than any other character, being able to do just about everything (with the exception of the epic traps thing I mentioned) as long as they are not in a high magic environment. They can meet any challenge and best it (with the exception of AMZs). Countless years of experience in many different environments here - both off and online.

For the record, scroll use, potions use, and especially wand use has been incorporated into MMM play - depending on the environment, of course. I know of one variant that was an extensive wand user in an environment where there was lots of dispelling opponents, for example.

Scrolls, wands, and potions (to a lesser extent) have their uses, especially for buffing and for those spells that really do not do damage based on levels (unless one is playing in an evironment where the D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands, and potions are being used, for example).

Still, even a watered down wand of x can be useful for preserving spells if so desired. I normally always have scrolls of damage soaking in my inventory, and of course scrolls with escape spells.

One never knows when one will need to retreat - which a Wizard is really good at when needed.

Multiclass Melee mages don't really work at low level. I know this because I play them. (and love playing them) but higher spell levels are always worth having, more so than Armour proficiency or damage reduction (at low level).

Further Sorcerer beats wizard in my experience at least. Flexibiltiy on the fly beats flexibility in preparation. And more of the good spells beats less but more varied spells. Skill points are neither here nor there.

Of course If you have a level 12 MMM build that can beat the druid with a dump level in cleric I'd love to see it. In fact I eagerly await your reply.

Actually, I already did a thread on this on the old forums, and many contributed to it. We basically did the break-downs for ALL levels, and did the comparisons mathmatically. MMMs won out in every level breakdown, EXCEPT in high magic level environments.

Basically, your "low level" MMM has a nice damage soaking, regenerating Familiar, with a level of Cleric, 1 level higher Summons (at the same time, of course) AND all the protection/stat-boosting/damage soaking/offensive spellpower that the Wizard enjoys, with little to no sacrifices. Proper assembly of your MMM is required, of course.

As for Sorcerer vs Wizard (MMM), well, we did this breakdown as well. The Sorcerer just suffers too much in flexibility, really (especially in environments where there are more spells available as just the "normal" palette). True, the Sorcerer is a plattform of mass destruction, but getting through the m0bs to get to the Boss, and preserving those spells is problematic, in the least. Creating a MMM based on Sorc is more difficult in my experience. Not saying it is impossible, nope, just saying that it is not as effective as using Wizard based on my experiences - YMMV.

To that, the Wizard has more skill points, and more feats - and is normally able to share spells, meaning that in a short time, the Wizard has just about all the spells available in that environment (dependingly, of course).

The Sorcerer does not enjoy these advantages.

Of course, after an environment is "known" - one can then tailor a Sorc to be more fitting (necessary spells learned to face the level of threat, etc). Still suffers from less skills and feats, however.

[henesua]

WebShaman wrote...

Scrolls, wands, and potions (to a lesser extent) have their uses, especially for buffing and for those spells that really do not do damage based on levels (unless one is playing in an evironment where the D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands, and potions are being used, for example).

I am curious about what you mean by D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands and potions.

I am using The Krit's A Better Craft Magic, which applies the creator's caster level (roughly) to the spell stored in a crafted scroll, wand, or potion. And have not yet seen how this will affect play. Any feedback as to how this adjusts the balance of power would be greatly appreciated.

[Shadooow]

henesua wrote...

I am curious about what you mean by D&D PnP rules for scrolls, wands and potions.

I am using The Krit's A Better Craft Magic, which applies the creator's caster level (roughly) to the spell stored in a crafted scroll, wand, or potion. And have not yet seen how this will affect play. Any feedback as to how this adjusts the balance of power would be greatly appreciated.

Well I wouldn't use this neither in my high magic environment from balance reasons. But thats a bit off topic here...