104 réponses à ce sujet

[henesua]

WhiZard wrote...
I never really liked the XP penalty for magical/Harper crafting.

As a player you didn't like this? Or in general why not? Isn't XP a resource like any other?

[Rolo Kipp]

<spelling his name wrong...>

For the record, I agree with WhiZard.
Just my opinion, but I feel XP represents the advancement of character and setting a character *back* for creating items? Counter-productive. We really want to *reward* crafting, not penalize it. I'd much rather have them cost other things, like time, money, playing effort, than cost advancement.

@ WhiZard: I make a distinction in my (so far imaginary) magic system between reagents and focuses. The items themselves can be used in either capacity, but used as a reagent, they are consumed (and more powerful). A focus is not consumed, but provides less benefit.

But that's just me, Cord Grimwinder. Yup. Old Cordy =)

<...to be sure they blame the wrong guy>

[Frimbleglim]

XP is a rescourse like no other in that it gives you an advantage just by having it. A scroll just sits in your inventry until it's used, so does a potion. A gold piece is the same. The only thing XP can be compared to really is magic weaponry and armour.

If you give magic items an xp cost to craft then they will only be crafted when the caster is sure they will get more xp from using them than they would from not using them. So that it's a 'loan' of xp not a 'cost'.

[MagicalMaster]

HipMaestro wrote...

Now, I've played servers that encouraged the muling activity (providing an easy means of transferring items from one toon to another using the same account) probably because it recognizes that players can effect the identical situation with coop.  But on low magic environments, this would seriously bias the potential of those 2 classes vs. not only non-fighters but some casters since with UMD, any spell that can be crafted can be used, without regard to whether it is or arcan or divine origin.

Hang on.

So if player A makes a character to craft wands, he can sell the wands to everyone else.  If player B makes a character to craft wands, he can sell the wands to everyone else.  Players A and B can even trade wands (I'll give X character a wand of Y if you give N character a wand of M).

This is all perfectly fine according to you.

But if player A simply gives a character of his own a wand, it's suddenly unbalanced?  Huh?

In short, this isn't an issue of muling, it's a issue of wide-spread wand/scroll trading and usage.  I don't really see how muling factors into this.

[henesua]

MagicalMaster wrote...
But if player A simply gives a character of his own a wand, it's suddenly unbalanced?  Huh?

Yes, it is. If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue. The self-interst of players even when they are cooperating puts a significant check on this during exchanges.

[Elhanan]

henesua wrote...

Yes, it is. If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue. The self-interst of players even when they are cooperating puts a significant check on this during exchanges.

Dunno; have tried to not utilize Muling in smaller NWN1 servers and worlds per requests, and it has been enforced mostly via Honor Code. Since these are our worlds of play, we help police our own playgrounds.

To get around this in a respectful manner, it is generally held to be OK to sell said item to a shop, then have the other character purchase it.

But Muling is a better feature available in SWTOR among my own characters. I avoid mixing much at all with others, and have yet to try the Global markets. Worst part of MMO's are the MM's, IMO. So having a family run market is quite nice, and my meager offerings do not seem to bother such a grand economy and balance of power at all.

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

Yes, it is. If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue. The self-interst of players even when they are cooperating puts a significant check on this during exchanges.

Why?

Let's say the market rate for a wand of something is 1000 gold and it costs 400 XP and 200g to make, for example.  This means the going rate for XP is considered to be 2 gold for 1 XP.  So if I wanted you to make a wand that cost 800 XP and 300g, the market rate would be 1900g.  Following me so far?

If this is the case, then why does it matter if I earn the gold on my main character and trade the gold for the wand (made by someone else) or earn the XP on a second character and give the wand to my main?  By earning the XP, I'm giving up the gold I could have earned (meaning if I know a way to make gold very easily but I'm bad at getting XP, I'm better off obtaining the gold than making a crafting character).

Either way, the player has to invest time to get the item.  Either I spend the time to get the 800g extra I need to buy the wand or I spend the time to get the 400 XP needed to craft the wand.

And since this is based on the market rate determined by players, both of this cases should be equivalent in terms of effort.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 12:02 .

[henesua]

The reason why is in the self-interest of two players interacting versus two characters following one player's self-interest. This the root of multi-player games and markets. I'm surprised it need be explained.

Modifié par henesua, 25 novembre 2012 - 12:09 .

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

The reason why is in the self-interest of two players interacting versus two characters following one player's self-interest. This the root of multi-player games and markets. I'm surprised it need be explained.

Of course it needs to be explained.

If there's a person on my server who has a crafting character all set up and charges reasonable rates, I am *much* better off buying from him instead of making my own crafting character.  People do things on their own when they feel the asking price from someone else is too high.  I'd pay someone $20 or whatever to cook a great meal because I'm not a good chef.  But I wouldn't pay them $2000, because I'd rather just do it myself in that case.

You are familiar with opportunity cost, right?

And regardless, even if you argue you want to force more community interaction (even at the cost of economic efficiency), that doesn't explain your previous statement of

"If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue."

If I spent 10 hours farming gold and obtain 20 powerful wands at an outrageous price instead of being able to make 40 wands of my own in the same time period...I still have 20 powerful wands at my disposal!  It doesn't make me unable to get *any* wands, it just means I can only get less.  Which in turn means I just need to spend more time farming to get said wands...but I will still have the wands available to use when they matter.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 12:26 .

[henesua]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]henesua wrote...
The reason why is in the self-interest of two players interacting versus two characters following one player's self-interest. This the root of multi-player games and markets. I'm surprised it need be explained.[/quote]
Of course it needs to be explained.[/quote][/quote]

If you don't understand game-theory or market economics I shouldn't be the one to explain it to you.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
If there's a person on my server who has a crafting character all set up and charges reasonable rates, I am *much* better off buying from him instead of making my own crafting character.  People do things on their own when they feel the asking price from someone else is too high.  I'd pay someone $20 or whatever to cook a great meal because I'm not a good chef.  But I wouldn't pay them $2000, because I'd rather just do it myself in that case.
[/quote]

You appear to be conflating a player driven market with muling. The two are unrelated, and thus this argument is irrelevant to the point I made. If its just a non-sequitor or pre-amble... *shrugs*

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
And regardless, even if you argue you want to force more community interaction (even at the cost of economic efficiency), that doesn't explain your previous statement of

"If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue."
[/quote]

This is a straw man argument as it has nothing to do with muling or anything that I said.

Pick a fight somewhere else. I'm no interested.

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

If you don't understand game-theory or market economics I shouldn't be the one to explain it to you.

I understand both of those quite a bit, apparently more than you do.

For example, you don't seem to understand that "muling" (in terms of something like crafted wands) *primarily occurs in inefficient markets.*  For muling to be worth it, you have to be able to get more out of setting up a mule and playing it instead of playing on your "main" character.  Some people make multiple characters because they like the feeling of being self-sufficient even if they'd be better off paying someone else to make the items, sure.  But not players who understand economics.

henesua wrote...

You appear to be conflating a player driven market with muling. The two are unrelated, and thus this argument is irrelevant to the point I made. If its just a non-sequitor or pre-amble... *shrugs*

Muling is part of a player driven market, I don't see how you don't realize that.

If I spend 5 hours working on a mule, I could have spent the same 5 hours on my "main" collecting gold.  Muling also helps address market inefficiencies (such as only one player on a server making wands for insane prices).  The better the economy, the less sense a mule makes (to the point of making no sense at a certain point).

henesua wrote...

MagicalMaster wrote...

that doesn't explain your previous statement of

"If a player can direct the resources of all of their characters into one character, you have a serious balance issue."

This is a straw man argument as it has nothing to do with muling or anything that I said.

Given that you said it, how can it have nothing to do with anything you said?

You claimed muling affects game balance, *not* just game economy.

If I can make a wand for the equivalent cost of 1000g on a mule or buy it for 3000g from another character, that just means I need to spend more time to get the wands I want.  But I still have access to the wands and can use them in the situations where they matter.

This is true even if you make the crafting horridly expensive, because then it's equally harder to make the wand on a mule.

Muling just can make getting the wands easier, it doesn't make them possible to get when otherwise they would be impossible to obtain.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[henesua]

MM, you seem to be interested in argument for argument's sake, and I've already told you I'm not interested in engaging with yor non-sense. Furthermore your hypocrisy in taking up the subject of muling is off putting to say the least, and that you don't seem embarassed in the least by it says that I don't nbeed to take any of your words seriously. You were the one who dismissed HipMaestro for being off-topic when he raised a question about it.

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

You were the one who dismissed HipMaestro for being off-topic when he raised a question about it.

Dismissed?  Hardly.  It was a legitimate question.

If he was concerned about muling for the sake of RP, then more power to him, I'll see if I can help him prevent it.

If he was concerned about muling for the sake of balance, then I don't think it's an issue (at least not for something like a wand) and I'd see why he thought muling in that sense disrupted balance.

henesua wrote...

Furthermore your hypocrisy in taking up the subject of muling is off putting to say the least, and that you don't seem embarassed in the least by it says that I don't nbeed to take any of your words seriously.

What hypocrisy?

Is this referring to when you thought I was dismissing HipMaestro (and wasn't)?  Because characters built to craft wands/scrolls and otherwise not used due to being inferior in combat is definitely related to the subject at hand of balance and UMD.

If, on the other hand, you think I'm being a hypocrite because you think muling is a terrible thing (though I'm not sure how that's hypocrisy), might I remind you that at least the major MMOs have "muling" in the sense of crafting things on multiple characters and being able to mail them to a single "main?"

Essentially, only in NWN (due to RP concerns) have I ever seen the idea of crafting something on an alt as bad.  And generally speaking, people only need to resort to that if the wands/scrolls/whatever aren't readily purchasable in a player market.

henesua wrote...

MM, you seem to be interested in argument for argument's sake, and I've already told you I'm not interested in engaging with yor non-sense.

I'm not arguing for argument's sake.  And if you want to insult me, I don't really care.  Respond, or don't.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Pearls]

i agree that muling isnt the problem unless you are promoting a pure player economy, the problem is crafted items like wands only work for non party or single player games in the default d&d or nwn state. when a player only has to dump a few skill points or 1 class level to access most of the best spells it makes soloing areas way too easy, and at very little expense to that character, but a lot to the crafter. they only make sense in very high magic games, where players are tripping over enough items to mitigate the usefulness of spells like gmw/flame weapon/resist elements etc. if crafters were penalized less but wand+scroll uses needed to sacrifice more to use those items crafting wouldnt be a problem for servers

Modifié par Pearls, 25 novembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[WebShaman]

Hmmm...

Well, muling. (Interesting how this thread is going).

Let us consider Crafting.

In most Crafting systems, one needs to invest resources (mostly limited, like feats and skill points) into the necessary Crafting feats/skills. This, of course, takes away from optimizing a main character for "gold/xp farming". I do know that many will create multiple characters to get around this, and "mule" - and I am pretty sure most know about this as well.

This is pretty much where MMs arguments break down (and what he is not discussing). You may think in investing those "extra hours" into your main, to get gold/xp, sure. But the player who has instead created multiple optimized characters for Crafting/Gold/XP will get ahead more quickly, due to multiple characters being optimized for different tasks (re: specialization) rather than trying to somehow squeeze everything under one roof.

Now, one may wish to try to invest in other player's capabilities (re: Crafter) - but they are not always online, or around. Whereas your own characters always are.

Therefore (rather obviously), it is simply more advantageous to have multiple optimized characters yourself for different purposes (specialists) rather than relying on the whims of others.

[MagicalMaster]

WebShaman wrote...

This is pretty much where MMs arguments break down (and what he is not discussing). You may think in investing those "extra hours" into your main, to get gold/xp, sure. But the player who has instead created multiple optimized characters for Crafting/Gold/XP will get ahead more quickly, due to multiple characters being optimized for different tasks (re: specialization) rather than trying to somehow squeeze everything under one roof.

Um.

MagicalMaster wrote...

If this is the case, then why does it matter if I earn the gold on my main character and trade the gold for the wand (made by someone else) or earn the XP on a second character and give the wand to my main?  By earning the XP, I'm giving up the gold I could have earned (meaning if I know a way to make gold very easily but I'm bad at getting XP, I'm better off obtaining the gold than making a crafting character).

Either way, the player has to invest time to get the item.  Either I spend the time to get the 800g extra I need to buy the wand or I spend the time to get the 400 XP needed to craft the wand.

MagicalMaster wrote...

If I spent 10 hours farming gold and obtain 20 powerful wands at an outrageous price instead of being able to make 40 wands of my own in the same time period...I still have 20 powerful wands at my disposal!  It doesn't make me unable to get *any* wands, it just means I can only get less.  Which in turn means I just need to spend more time farming to get said wands...but I will still have the wands available to use when they matter.

MagicalMaster wrote...

For example, you don't seem to understand that "muling" (in terms of something like crafted wands) *primarily occurs in inefficient markets.*  For muling to be worth it, you have to be able to get more out of setting up a mule and playing it instead of playing on your "main" character.  Some people make multiple characters because they like the feeling of being self-sufficient even if they'd be better off paying someone else to make the items, sure.  But not players who understand economics.

MagicalMaster wrote...

If I spend 5 hours working on a mule, I could have spent the same 5 hours on my "main" collecting gold.  Muling also helps address market inefficiencies (such as only one player on a server making wands for insane prices).  The better the economy, the less sense a mule makes (to the point of making no sense at a certain point).

Who said anything about trying to squeeze everything under one roof?  I sure haven't (as far as I can tell).

I have never talked about crafting on a main character.  The question is whether to make your own crafting character or buy the wands from someone else's crafting character.

WebShaman wrote...

Now, one may wish to try to invest in other player's capabilities (re: Crafter) - but they are not always online, or around. Whereas your own characters always are.

This has nothing to do with balance, though, just convenience.  If you plan decently, you should never run into an emergency where you suddenly desperately need a wand.  This also goes back to the point of muling typically being a response to an inefficient economy.

WebShaman wrote...

Therefore (rather obviously), it is simply more advantageous to have multiple optimized characters yourself for different purposes (specialists) rather than relying on the whims of others.

What *you're* not discussing is at least one major point.

Setting up a crafting character takes time before you can ever start using it.  That's a a fixed cost that you have to pay once.  This may wind up being worth it eventually (for example, you pay the equivalent of 1000g to set up the character and then get wands for 10g instead of having to always buy wands for 15g, meaning you need to make over 200 wands for the mule option to be better),  but the better the economy the less of an advantage this is.

The reason this has a cost, of course, is that during the time you take to level the mule, you could be earning gold on your main.  And it's extremely possible to have situations where you'd need to make so many wands/scrolls to earn back the initial fixed cost that a mule doesn't really make sense compared to just buying the stuff from other players.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Elhanan]

Wizards gain free Feats which may include crafting; not exactly a burden. And it is not too difficult to max out a Main (or several other PC's), so creating a Crafter is not really that much of a problem.

Still, depending on the server, Muling may be permissable, and it can be fun to run a Clan controlled market. However, if the DM rules against it, then it is the duty and responsibility of each Player to gevern themselves. IMO.

P.S. One of the features on the World of Aenea that helps is the Reward system for time spent playing for each PC. Since each PC is able to choose rewards based on their indv needs, this helps make Muling less desirable.

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 novembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

And it is not too difficult to max out a Main (or several other PC's), so creating a Crafter is not really that much of a problem.

Server dependent.

But yes, easy leveling and/or poor economy strongly encourage mules, and the reverse is also true.

[Elhanan]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

And it is not too difficult to max out a Main (or several other PC's), so creating a Crafter is not really that much of a problem.

Server dependent.

But yes, easy leveling and/or poor economy strongly encourage mules, and the reverse is also true.

True that about the servers. But thankfully, the ones I have played on these past years have been challenging; just invested enough time to create several PC's that are at max.

Also, on most of the servers I have experienced, the Staff have played Crafters, and are the suppliers for desired goods. Thus, Muling is/ was not as attractive. And as mentioned, selling & purchasing to a shop is a decent walkaround anyway.

[WebShaman]

Now, the point in my post is to demonstrate why some here (and most PW admins) object to "muling" and have rules against it - because it gives a player an added advantage over others that do not mule.

That is what MM is not discussing. The text wall is just there, to demonstrate just how unfair it is towards those who do not mule.

As for the initial investment...?? One simply plays multiple characters at the same time. I thought that much was obvious - most rules on PWs include scripts that tend to clean up things left laying around, so logging out, then in with a new character to pick up something can be (and often is) risky. It is much easier to have two characters running at the same time. And creating Crafters is normally much easier than optimizing a gold/xp hunter.

MM, you ever been on a staff on a PW trying to curb muling? The things and lengths that I have witnessed players doing, to mule...well, quite astounding, really.

So no, this is a point not worth discussing at all, because it doesn't exist for hardcore mulers. I take it you have never heard of this method before?

This has nothing to do with balance, though, just convenience. If you plan decently, you should never run into an emergency where you suddenly desperately need a wand. This also goes back to the point of muling typically being a response to an inefficient economy.

A big no here.

You can never be sure that a particular Crafter will be online when you are, unless you are regularly meeting up.

And as often is the case, often one cannot perceive the future, especially in the case of DM run events, where one needs something quickly.

*shrugs* You ever been involved in DM run events, etc? You know, where things are not foreseeable?

In a static environment, where things are always the same, one is not faced with such dilemma's of course. One can plan ahead, and as such, for one who does, it is usually easier. DM run events, however, are not so easy to plan for.

[MrZork]

How does one usefully play more than one character at once? I can certainly play one character and then relog and play another. But, that's not the point, since it's my time that is the scarce resource and I have to choose which character I am using to adventure. I suppose I could even have two character's logged on at once from different computers at once, but I can't really run two characters at the same time in a way where they are both gaining XP and gold. The wand crafting system (the default one and ABCM) requires significant amounts of both if one is going to craft many decent wands. And, since anyone buying wands can't pay the crafter with XP, the crafting character can't just spend his time crafting, either. A player can't just log in to create wands and then ignore that toon until the next time more wands are needed. He has to spend time taking that toon out to slay dragons as well, or he won't have enough XP to keep crafting. I can't have my crafter out gaining XP without cutting into the time I can spend adventuring with my "main" character.


More broadly, I guess I'm not sure what issue with wand crafting isn't fixable. Maybe I've missed it in this discussion, but what is the exact problem that people are trying to address here with regard to wands? I initially thought that there was some issue of UMD toons buying wands from crafters (whether the same player runs the crafter and the recipient or not). But, it's clearly a more subtle problem than that because, as I have pointed out, it's easy to make sure that a crafter doesn't give or sell crafted wands to anyone, including the player's own non-crafting toons. And, a PC can't make money by selling wands to stores because the wands cost more to craft than what stores will pay for them. So, I am trying to pin down what exact situation people are trying to address. Is the desire that crafting characters can sell wands to other characters, but only to those who can craft the same wands themselves anyway?

Modifié par MrZork, 26 novembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[MrZork]

[double post]

Modifié par MrZork, 26 novembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[henesua]

MrZork wrote...
More broadly, I guess I'm not sure what issue with wand crafting isn't fixable.

I had thought that the problem wasn't wands under vanilla NWN but the ability to give wands a higher caster level than the lowest possible, and since this is such an advantage no matter what costs you impose to balance it out, unless you make crafting of wands impossible they will enter the game and mess everything up.

I can see how in an enviornment with unlimited or nearly so resources that this is difficult to fix in a graceful way. I consider the "high magic" environments that Shadooow described to have for all intents an dpurposes unlimited resources because the time committment and risk to acquire gold and XP appears to be insignificant.

Outside of those situations however I don't see how introducing in game costs would fail to encourage wand crafting to those that use the wands.

[Elhanan]

^ If the Caster lvl increases, could the UMD DC also be raised?

[Shadooow]

MrZork wrote...
More broadly, I guess I'm not sure what issue with wand crafting isn't fixable.

actually nothing, that wasnt my point

There are numerous issues, which some of them ABCM fixes, but also raises new ones. An experienced builder can ensure a balanced crafting, but what was my point is that ABCM as it is is less balanced than vanilla crafting state which someone claimed to be opposite and I strongly disagree.

On the other hand, since ABCM fixes few issues (or at least one which is class restriction problem), it could be better to start with this as a base for additional changes to maintan the needed balance.:innocent:

Elhanan wrote...

^ If the Caster lvl increases, could the UMD DC also be raised?

UMD DC is dependant on total item cost, that is determined by the spell cost (higher CL higher cost) and charges on wand

this cost is therefore raised automatically if the wand will have higher CL but not so much to make a difference, with a rank of 25UMD you can use anything up to value of 600k which no craftin item exceeds by default - and if it would then it would be easy to make good profit from it btw

well that is for HM, in LM the DC might be on the contrary incredible high

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:08 .