104 réponses à ce sujet

[henesua]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
UMD DC is dependant on total item cost, that is determined by the spell cost (higher CL higher cost) and charges on wand

this cost is therefore raised automatically if the wand will have higher CL but not so much to make a difference, with a rank of 25UMD you can use anything up to value of 600k which no craftin item exceeds by default - and if it would then it would be easy to make good profit from it btw

Shadooow is this hardcoded or can we script our own restrictions?

[Shadooow]

right, it isnt hardcoded, all values are in skillvsitemcost.2da

[henesua]

What I mean was: Can we get at the script that makes the determination, or are we limited to adjusting values in the 2da?

Incidentally...

Elhanan wrote...

^ If the Caster lvl increases, could the UMD DC also be raised?

Yeah, thats what I am getting at. Good question there.

Modifié par henesua, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[Shadooow]

henesua wrote...

What I mean was: Can we get at the script that makes the determination, or are we limited to adjusting values in the 2da?

UMD DC is completely driven by this 2DA and the item cost

to change an crafted wand cost is practically only possible via iprp_spells which affect anything with Cast spell: # property. That however isn't a good solution because the cost also determines item level restriction - I assume this being ON as pretty standard, also you are running the risk of selling crafted items into shop to make big profit.

However, it would be easily possible to make a second UMD check just like when casting from scroll (I believe that extremely low cost of scrolls is reason for this feature - 10rank in UMD allowed to use all scrolls in nwn). x2_pc_umdcheck would be a script where this could be done. Probably best solution for this issue.

[henesua]

Thank you very much. I think that is just what I needed to know.

[MrZork]

As noted on the first page of this thread, it would also be easy to add
alignment and race restrictions to the crafted wands. That would
increase their UMD DCs without increasing their sale value. If
increasing the potential store sale value of wands is not a big concern,
then adding worthless properties like spell resistance to crafted wands
would increase their UMD DCs and would be an easy and level-scalable
scripting change.

henesua wrote...

MrZork wrote...
More broadly, I guess I'm not sure what issue with wand crafting isn't fixable.

I had thought that the problem wasn't wands under vanilla NWN but the ability to give wands a higher caster level than the lowest possible, and since this is such an advantage no matter what costs you impose to balance it out, unless you make crafting of wands impossible they will enter the game and mess everything up.

Both of those approaches above and the approach of making crafted wands undroppable could be made conditional for wands created above the minimum caster level. That is, it could be scripted so that the minimum power wands were sellable (perhaps with properties that increased UMD requirements) while higher level wands had even higher barriers to UMD use or simply could not be sold. Since ABCM includes an optional widget to allow the crafter to decrease his crafting level, he could make wands that more closely match his level for his own use and still make wimpy wands for use by others.

BTW, it's important to note that it's simply not the case that ABCM always creates more powerful wands than the default crafting system. ABCM simply allows crafting of wands that are closer to, but still not exceeding, the caster level. When a higher level item property is availble that's closer to the crafter's casting level, then the wand better matches the caster. But, there are many instances when crafting wand under ABCM will result in a less powerful wand than the same crafting under the default crafting system. For example, a level 3 mage will craft a level 15 Bull's Strength wand under the default system, but will craft a level 3 wand under ABCM. SImilarly, a level 7 cleric will craft a level 20 Hammer of the Gods wand under the default system, but a level 7 wand under ABCM.

henesua wrote...
I can see how in an enviornment with unlimited or nearly so resources that this is difficult to fix in a graceful way. I consider the "high magic" environments that Shadooow described to have for all intents an dpurposes unlimited resources because the time committment and risk to acquire gold and XP appears to be insignificant.

Outside of those situations however I don't see how introducing in game costs would fail to encourage wand crafting to those that use the wands.

So, is the idea to reduce UMD use of wands, but not discourage wand crafting? To allow UMD use of wands but make it harder? To allow UMD use of just the lowest level of crafted wand? All of those seem doable. Something else?

[henesua]

Mr. Zork... Those quotes of mine were merely an explanation about what some of the discussion had been about. I think we have the same view that this can be solved. No argument from me on that point. I agree. As to how to "solve" it, first to be brutally honest, I wonder if this is much ado about nothing, essentially searching for a solution and then later a problem to apply it to. But given that all the nay saying is rooted in experience, lets assume that ABCM does potentially give UDM focused characters an edge over others. I still think it could be solved in a myriad of ways, and one merely need to try at it until something works satisfactorily

As to goal, I would like to allow crafting, and for that crafting to favor use by the wizard. My solution for that is to tweak the economics and power dynamics of the situation to favor crafting your own or your group's own magic items rather than to except some material exchange for them. Gold should essentially be worth less than the item costs to create. Gold is only worth what it can buy... so that doesn't seem all that hard to pull off. But whatever... I'll give it a shot and if it fails work on a different solution.

Also I agree with your understanding of ABCM. I don't think many of its detractors have considered all implications of its use. The problem of higher level items being available for level 40 characters seems to be more of the concern. But I'll let the others speak to all that, as it isn't my experience. My goal is to focus players in the 5-15 level range.

With regards to ABCM, I've had it in game since Arnheim's beginning, but it hasn't gotten a ton of use due to more interest in the martial classes than the spell casters. And we haven't opened up to 24/7 play anyway which has skewed the results because players don't tend to craft when a DM is with 'em the whole time.

Despite this I did spend the time, a significant amount of time, configuring the spell properties in my module to work with it, and so understand fairly well how it functions and how a designer can modify it for their purposes. I don't see much evidence in this thread of a similar level of familiarity with the system.

Some interesting aspects: ABCM is only set up for 5 steps of magical power for each spell. Essentially you choose 5 different caster levels for a spell property on an item. For example I set up fireball to work at levels 5, 6, 7, 8, 10. Magic missile 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. A number of spells have easy choices like that with only 5 level options as the 5 levels are about all you need, but as to the others duration is often the biggest change and picking levels is actually fairly arbitrary. In retrospect a designer should probably load up the lower levels so as to favor an actual spell caster in this regard. I unfortunately didn't approach it with that in mind while first digging into it, but may the next time I feel like revisiting all that data entry.... Due to the level of work required to set this all up though I wonder how many have fully tested this system in the wild. Those are some folks I'd like to hear from.

Theory can sometimes be fun to discuss, but its ultimately pointless. In my experience all this talk is good for perspective, but thats about it. Once you actually work on your module, it becomes clear that a developer with a sense of direction can without much effort step beyond the pale of the typical NWN experience. And once you are out there the theories don't apply.

Anyway... I don't know why I just rambled on and on. Probably a waste of time. But I felt like it.

[Shadooow]

MrZork wrote...

BTW, it's important to note that it's simply not the case that ABCM always creates more powerful wands than the default crafting system. ABCM simply allows crafting of wands that are closer to, but still not exceeding, the caster level. When a higher level item property is availble that's closer to the crafter's casting level, then the wand better matches the caster. But, there are many instances when crafting wand under ABCM will result in a less powerful wand than the same crafting under the default crafting system. For example, a level 3 mage will craft a level 15 Bull's Strength wand under the default system, but will craft a level 3 wand under ABCM. SImilarly, a level 7 cleric will craft a level 20 Hammer of the Gods wand under the default system, but a level 7 wand under ABCM.

Hmm thats something I havent considered. I guess I should, I was viewing this from high level perspective as what is really point of crafting with lvl 3 wizard if the number of charges is dependant on the CL? At lvl 20 nothing changes actually except few very usefull spells which are useless in vanilla but ABCM creates them in max CL so you can get +5GMW and 10dmg FW and +5barkskin

But aside of this, it was probably preconceived to claim it is imbalanced. If anyone would want to craft at lower levels all he gets will be as powerful as it should be, that is less than by default. On the other hand in LM it might completely discourage from crafting offensive spells since as I mentioned the CL also affect number of charges.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[MagicalMaster]

henesua wrote...

My solution for that is to tweak the economics and power dynamics of the situation to favor crafting your own or your group's own magic items rather than to except some material exchange for them. Gold should essentially be worth less than the item costs to create. Gold is only worth what it can buy... so that doesn't seem all that hard to pull off.

It is incredibly hard if not impossible to pull off, unless your world is set up so that gold is completely worthless and meaningless.

Assuming gold has some value, then if you make wands harder to craft...people will offer more gold.  If it's worth crafting in the first place, it's worth buying to use with UMD unless you have a system that prevents that from happening.

[SHOVA]

It seems there is a lot of hubbub about wands, Yet no one has once mentioned the basic part of why the wands tend to get out of hand. Loot drops that wands can be made from. A wand, (default Bio) is made from a low end creature drop, the result: Just about everyone can make them, enchant them, sell them.
My solution:
Remove the creature drop, instead make wand crafting take multiple kills, gatherings, merchant visits, and gold.
Remove the default cast spell at wand to enchant, Instead require the use of a crafting table, a multi-layered conversation, where XP, Gold, and even a stat point or 2 is used to create the wand, in addition to the spell being cast. Make the creation not only long, but riddled with chances of failure, based on skill, feat, and stat ability points, Make failure be painful, losing hit points, (if a RP server) a limb, eye, hair, a nose etc.
Finally, remove the ability for merchants to buy crafted/enchanted wands. Lets face it, most stores in NWN are starting to feel a bit like Wal-mart. Everything under the sun, one low price.
With the above in place it doesn't mater if your players have a mule, or a craft only character, because eventually, after a certain number of created wands, they will be dead, or useless depending on what "costs" you put in place to create a single wand.

[Shadooow]

SHOVA wrote...

It seems there is a lot of hubbub about wands, Yet no one has once mentioned the basic part of why the wands tend to get out of hand. Loot drops that wands can be made from. A wand, (default Bio) is made from a low end creature drop, the result: Just about everyone can make them, enchant them, sell them.
My solution:
Remove the creature drop, instead make wand crafting take multiple kills, gatherings, merchant visits, and gold.

I have done this in my HM settings also with blank scrolls and empty potion which however drop more often as wands tend to be more usefull due to the number of charges. What happened is only what MM refered to in post above. Crafted wands just get higher value for the UMD characters which they now are willing to pay more for them.

See even in HM, the wand of ii, negative energy protection (5immunities in one spell), freedom (3immunities in one spell), death ward, holy sword, bless weapon, invisibility purge, find traps, shadow conjuration: mage armor, mage armor, see invisibility and scroll of shadow shield, breach, flame weapon, or greater sanctuary (if allowed) are highly usefull even if you have items +7 available. And these defensive spells tend to be even more usefull in LM.

Just to clarify: the current state of craftin on my server is more or less balanced, the usefulness of the crafted items seems to me appropriate, what Im currently balancing is wands vs potions/scrolls as those with less charges should be more effective IMO.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:17 .

[WhiZard]

SHOVA wrote...
With the above in place it doesn't mater if your players have a mule, or a craft only character, because eventually, after a certain number of created wands, they will be dead, or useless depending on what "costs" you put in place to create a single wand.

Why go through all those limitations.  SetItemCursedFlag(TRUE); is all that is needed.  No selling, trading, or dropping without the aid of a DM.  If you really want to penalize magical crafting, you could also get rid of it.

[SHOVA]

Just setting a crafted wand to cursed does not change how often they can be made, nor does it change who can give them away. However setting limits, that require more than right click make the wand, and left click cast spell at wand, in my opinion, is a better way to still have the crafting, without the thoughtless standard way.

[WhiZard]

SHOVA wrote...

Just setting a crafted wand to cursed does not change how often they can be made, nor does it change who can give them away. However setting limits, that require more than right click make the wand, and left click cast spell at wand, in my opinion, is a better way to still have the crafting, without the thoughtless standard way.

It does change who can give them away.  As mentioned, cursed flag prevents trading, dropping, and selling. It also prevents moving into a different inventory (even if it is your own container).  What a DM would feasibly have is a widget to transfer this item when needed.  Thus, any effect on the market is completely controlled.

As far as a player making wands himself by paying the gold price cost for the wand (without any store markup) and an XP cost; this is a separate topic as it completely dismisses the UMD exploit, because all wands are limited for personal use.

[Aelis Eine]

If the intent is to give casters more spells, why not just add Extra Spell Slot items?

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

OldTimeRadio wrote...

Thank you Gregor, that's just the kind of suggestion/explanation I was looking for.

Is there another level between 12 and 20 where the planets sort of line up like they do at 12?

You're welcome.

I don't think so. Others have differing opinions, obviously.

Once the caster classes get to higher levels they become so overpowering you run in to the situation I've seen on most PW's. The builders/scripters are running around trying to find some way to "balance" the server. They bring out the nerf bat and start toning down spells. They try to come up with medium to high magic equipment for the non-caster classes to even up the playing field. From that point it's just a constant frantic scramble in an effort to find the ever illusive "balance" that's impossible to achieve. Keeps 'em busy, though. ;^)

 

*cough*  I see you folks have been busy the last three weeks.   

[WhiZard]

Aelis Eine wrote...

If the intent is to give casters more spells, why not just add Extra Spell Slot items?

I believe I already addressed this..

If you really want to penalize magical crafting, you could also get rid of it.

There should be no need to tear a player to pieces for using a skill that shows right up on his radial.  It would always be easier to simply cause the ability to do nothing, or even take away the GUI.  The exploits of muling, trading, etc. can all be easily blocked so that it is completely controlled by DMs and plot-oriented game scripts, but if there is no perceived need for crafting outside of these venues, then why have it?

Modifié par WhiZard, 28 novembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[WhiZard]

Double post

Modifié par WhiZard, 28 novembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[SHOVA]

I certainly do not wish to remove crafting. I do however think that crafting should require a lot more than kill low end critter, get drop, right click on drop, craft whatever, cast spell on crafted item, and boom- your done. This seems to be the biggest reason for the out of whack feeling standard crafting gives builders. 1 feat taken at low level and now there is a flood of crafted whatever that either limits the need for the class spell it casts, or drives up the magic occurrence in the world. (the Walmart effect) But hey, if that works in your world, great.

I actually hate the term balance in NWN. The reason is simple, when you compare the classes with the other classes they will never ever be balanced. A fighter will always have more hit points than a wizard. A cleric will always have more abilities than a monk. That doesn't mean that the classes can not be comparable with each other, or have general works about the same as this level, provided that A, B, and C, don't get in the way.

When building, the better mod makers tend to build for each class, (or for a specific one) because they understand that each class is different than the others. The really great builders imho, tend to build with the idea that the different classes will group up, work somewhat together, and perhaps make a difference in the world they are in. That is why, on some of the best PWs, you see a general party level rule of around 5 levels of each other. Those builders understand that the classes are not balanced, and that is not the goal of the game, but they are designed to work together, to compliment each other, and to make a group play interesting. But of course, your mileage may very.

[Frimbleglim]

I'm with Shova on this.  I don't think there is much point in trying to ballance classes.  Not that I don't think it can be done rather just that it shouldn't be done.  Better just to make the game interesting for every class.  

Having said that I believe that an xp system that kept the majority of players at arround 12th level would do a lot for game ballance.  Make em work hard for level 13 (or whatever level you decide) and harder still for the next level.  Then if they die and respawn then it's back to level 11 (or whatever).  

Then encourage risky play by giving huge xp rewards for killing high end monsters and remove all xp cuts for parties (ie if one guy gets 1000 xp for killing a monster on his own then a party killing the monster still gets 1000 xp EACH).  

This will encourage team play more than anything else.  

Modifié par Frimbleglim, 28 novembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[HipMaestro]

MagicalMaster wrote...
Hang on.

So if player A makes a character to craft wands, he can sell the wands to everyone else.  If player B makes a character to craft wands, he can sell the wands to everyone else.  Players A and B can even trade wands (I'll give X character a wand of Y if you give N character a wand of M).

This is all perfectly fine according to you.

But if player A simply gives a character of his own a wand, it's suddenly unbalanced?  Huh?

In short, this isn't an issue of muling, it's a issue of wide-spread wand/scroll trading and usage.  I don't really see how muling factors into this.

RL can interfere with pleasantries, so have been hanging long. Sry, MM.

I never implied any action was fine or not, just seeking how the potential to exploit the use of UMD-users to unbalance an otherwise suitably-balanced environment was viewed by the creative efforts of the community.  The examples were merely examples of what can exploited, intentionally or not, if implented that way.

henesua was kind enough to furnish a perspective on whether this exploit was recognized by admins and addtionally, whether it was and how it was interpreted (wasn't interested in the details, just a general glimpse into how others may have addressed this).  Apparently, this whole issue has been neither recognized nor deemed worth addressing by most other admins or would have gotten more replies.  That actually reflects my own experience.  In general, they don't care.  But exploitation by muling or other means DOES contribute to this whole relative balance issue.

On some servers, where XP is relatively easy to amass, it can become a method of farming on one character on an account, one that the player really gives no hoot about anyway except for the specialized function of crafter.  (whether the wands can be sold or not for gaining gold is secondary as far as this issue is concerned because there are usually adequate means to gain gold.)   Due to the way that XP is related to CR, a toon that remains at a relatively low level can always gain XP easily if they are continually in the cylce of draining it back down as they craft items and then rinse and repeat over and over.  That is one way to implement an eternal crafting specialist.

The conflict, IMO, is providing the crafting material or not providing it.  Sure, the environment can be designed to prevent drops or availability, but that in itself is detrimental to the game because it omits an interesting part of the default game, one that was fully intended to be implemented.  I remember myself how disappointed I was when first playing the game and finding out  that the OC was never designed to allow a player to experience that.  It just makes the game more interesting giving some additonal relevance to casting abilites.  Hang the unbalance from the potential exploitation. If it cannot be controlled in another fashion, I'll pass that environment.

So, if a world can prevent muling powerful, non-intrinsic wands (if itdecides that the action is indeed a class-specific exploitation that needs to be addressed) it will significantly alter the balance of those classes vs. others.  If the muling itself is controlled that still leaves the account-to-account "buddy" system to deal with.

The only suggestion I can provide is to make the crafted wands (and scrolls and potions) non-class-specific.  That would mean, even a fighter who got a hold of say, a crafted wand of magical missile, the fighter could use it. So could a cleric who bought it from him without any UMD class integrated.  Every class could.  That way, UMD would only become valuable for class-specific use only, as it was intended to be in the default game, and neutralize the potential for crafting-related exploitation.  Muling would then cause less impact on the potential to amoss these sorts of items.  I don't think the special crafting needs blueprints on the palette, at least for wands, because total charges can change If/how this could be scripted, dunno.  I have seen TK's crafting system but I don't think it can produce non-clas-specific items, can it?.

Was mainly interested, per the original topic about identifying where the "magical" balance level might occur, if this potential to unbalance an environment was ever considered or addressed.  It can be exploited at VERY low levels.

Related to where the discussion has been gradually trending...

I agree that class balance really isn't all that important because this is still inherently a party-based game.  Multiclassing allows folks to balance their character's relative potential themselves without needing a designer's intervention to do that for them.  Now, if they would like the default effectiveness of a particular class changed enough that the need to multiclass becomes less necessary, THAT is a very subjective difference and goal. 

Most of the imbalance complaints come about by virtue of PvP rather than the ability of one class to venture handily through a module while another struggles.  I consider dueling a product of an easily-bored mind rather than as an intended dynamic that BioWare designed into their game.  For designers that focus on placating the whims and suggestions of duelers, well... you have my sympathy.  The game was never intended to provide that level of equality, now was it?

Modifié par HipMaestro, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:27 .

[WhiZard]

HipMaestro wrote...

The only suggestion I can provide is to make the crafted wands (and
scrolls and potions) non-class-specific.  That would mean, even a
fighter who got a hold of say, a crafted wand of magical missile, the
fighter could use it. So could a cleric who bought it from him without
any UMD class integrated.  Every class could.  That way, UMD would only
become valuable for class-specific use only, as it was intended to be in
the default game, and neutralize the potential for crafting-related
exploitation.  Muling would then cause less impact on the potential to
amoss these sorts of items.  I don't think the special crafting needs
blueprints on the palette, at least for wands, because total charges can
change If/how this could be scripted, dunno.  I have seen TK's crafting
system but I don't think it can produce non-clas-specific items, can
it?.

Some shifter bullds do have this capability.  If the level one class is not a caster class, then the wands they craft from their shifted forms (magic missile for epic drider, burning hands for azer chieftain, and dispel magic, mestil's acid breath, and ice storm for rakshasa) will all have no class restrictions.

[MagicalMaster]

HipMaestro wrote...

Apparently, this whole issue has been neither recognized nor deemed worth addressing by most other admins or would have gotten more replies.  That actually reflects my own experience.  In general, they don't care.  But exploitation by muling or other means DOES contribute to this whole relative balance issue.

I don't think they care because they don't consider it an exploit.  I mean, on HG you have an account bound chest where you can drop stuff for all of your characters to access.

HipMaestro wrote...

Due to the way that XP is related to CR, a toon that remains at a relatively low level can always gain XP easily if they are continually in the cylce of draining it back down as they craft items and then rinse and repeat over and over.  That is one way to implement an eternal crafting specialist.

What does this have to do with muling, though?

I can easily make a character like that and sell the wands to other players and make it so every UMD user on the server has plenty of wands if they want them.  In a decent economy at least one other person would also do the same so I don't have a monopoly, and thus I'd be able to buy my own wands from my competitor.

The only thing I save by muling is whatever the extra time and effort it would take to get the wands due to an imperfect market.

[WebShaman]

The only thing I save by muling is whatever the extra time and effort it would take to get the wands due to an imperfect market.

I take it you are assuming that such is allowed in the environment? In some environments, these type of things are not allowed, so muling becomes an issue.

Also, there is, of course, the issue of meeting up with others. Your characters are always available, of course, but not always others.

And the biggest problem is, DM controlled events. One of the things I normally did as a DM is to get rid of the crafters!, pronto! Made dealing with things a bit easier...

Have you even adventured in a DM controlled environment?

[MagicalMaster]

WebShaman wrote...

I take it you are assuming that such is allowed in the environment? In some environments, these type of things are not allowed, so muling becomes an issue.

When you say "that such is allowed in the environment" you're referring to players being allowed to sell crafted wands/scrolls to each other?

If so, and trading crafted wands/scrolls isn't allowed, then muling an item to yourself itself is no different than buying it from someone else, i.e. both are cheating and against the rules.

WebShaman wrote...

Also, there is, of course, the issue of meeting up with others. Your characters are always available, of course, but not always others.

Of course.  On the flip side, I'd run around with a dozen wands of each major type (or more), so the odds of me running out of charges would be incredibly small.  With a big enough stockpile it's not really an issue.

WebShaman wrote...

And the biggest problem is, DM controlled events. One of the things I normally did as a DM is to get rid of the crafters!, pronto! Made dealing with things a bit easier...

Have you even adventured in a DM controlled environment?

I've played on a PW with DM run questlines that I participated in, was named high priest of a god as a result, in fact (on a sorcerer no less, on that PW all magic came from the gods).