21 réponses à ce sujet

[Kileyan]

-Will it be the classic games style of go invisible, be able to scout ahead, remove traps and look around solo a bit

-be more of the DA2 version with a short timer that could mostly be used for MMO style dropping aggro. Wasn't so usefull because the game engine teleported  your party along with you if you walked too far or passed certain load areas

-with this new engine, an actual stealth system that uses dark areas and shadow, and a little icon showing how sneaking you are being.

I prefer the first, an abstraction, with maybe some alertness checks to shake things up.

The last option is ideal, but very unlikely unless this game is build from the ground up as stealth being a major option. I just can't see it. Whatever the choice, the DA2 version needs to go, it just wasn't very good, and the scripted encounters were very heavy on ignoring stealth, or even worse triggering the encounters, and the bad guys magically knowing where the rest of the party was.

[Dhiro]

MotA's stealth received a lot of positive feedback, so I can see it coming back in some shape or form!

[Zkyire]

Dhiro wrote...

MotA's stealth received a lot of positive feedback, so I can see it coming back in some shape or form!

Aye, very much agreed.

Actual hiding would be preferred than a click-for-invisible-button.

Modifié par Zkyire, 06 novembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Kileyan]

Zkyire wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

MotA's stealth received a lot of positive feedback, so I can see it coming back in some shape or form!

Aye, very much agreed.

Actual hiding would be preferred than a click-for-invisible-button.

Remind me, wasn't that just one puzzle scene though? I don't want stealth to be just something only usable 3 times per act in specific areas that are rigged for it. Stealth should be a game wide ability for the rogue class, not just an option that pops up when the designers feel like its time for a stealth scene.

Modifié par Kileyan, 06 novembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Dhiro]

Kileyan wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

MotA's stealth received a lot of positive feedback, so I can see it coming back in some shape or form!

Aye, very much agreed.

Actual hiding would be preferred than a click-for-invisible-button.

Remind me, wasn't that just one puzzle scene though? I don't want stealth to be just something only usable 3 times per act in specific areas that are jiggered for it.

Yes. And same.

[BubbleDncr]

I think stealth would be cool if you had to go into cover-points or shadows or something in order to enter stealth, and then you remained in "stealth mode" for a certain amount of time after you left that spot - and maybe just the more points you put in stealth the longer amount of time that lasts - though I'm talking a matter of seconds.

The idea would be that of course the bad guys didn't see you while you were hiding, and that you didn't draw attention to yourself while you moved (they could be daydreaming, glancing the other way, whatever).

That's the only way I can really think (in my 5 minutes of solo brainstorming) of how they could do a stealth system that made even a tiny bit of sense, but worked both in and out of combat.

[Kileyan]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think stealth would be cool if you had to go into cover-points or shadows or something in order to enter stealth, and then you remained in "stealth mode" for a certain amount of time after you left that spot - and maybe just the more points you put in stealth the longer amount of time that lasts - though I'm talking a matter of seconds.

 

Ya know, that is actually a pretty awesome idea. I would make stealth something useable to some degree everywhere, but encourage a heavy expenditure in the stealth tree to be able to make it point to point and do usefull stuff in between.

In the event that Bioware just had to have an encounter or two where stealth was simply impossibe(much as I hate the idea), it would give them an out to.

A matter of seconds is too low though, I still want the iconic rouge, sneaking ahead and removing traps before his cohorts engage in combat, but anyways still a great idea. It is nice compromise between old school stealth that can be used often, and the "realistic" stealth that I can't imagine Bioware has the time to implement fully.

[Firky]

I wasn't really into stealth in MotA. I think the challenge lies in how it can be realised without FPP gameplay, or close over the shoulder camera. (Let's assume that DA3 will still have a camera that pulls further back. Because if that's not the case, I don't want to think about it. ) Less puzzling, more world building.

But. Here. A site with lots of (IMO, detailed and coherent) criticism of aspects of stealth in games, for people interested in stealth.

http://sneakybastards.net/

[stonemyst]

Still a fan of the Thief Series stealth. MoTA was ok.

[Kileyan]

stonemyst wrote...

Still a fan of the Thief Series stealth. MoTA was ok.

Well duh! Of course Theif Series stealth is good, but I am talking a compromise system for DA3. There is no way they are going to do a Thief style stealth system for a game that likely won't even be disigned for a stealth only, low combat or no combat path to winning.

We have to remember, stealth in these games is about how to eventually approach combat, not totally avoid it. This is a party game, it has to be taken into account on how to design the class ability of stealth, not how to design the entire game.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I am impressed with how the stealth dynamic works in Jagged Alliance 2.

It's a completely different type of game, but it's implementation of stealth and how it blends into the natural gameplay rather than being segregated like a mini-game, which is the worst kind IMO (ala MotA, or Witcher 2) is impressive for a non-action party game.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 06 novembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[Kileyan]

CrustyBot wrote...

I am impressed with how the stealth dynamic works in Jagged Alliance 2.

It's a completely different type of game, but it's implementation of stealth and how it blends into the natural gameplay rather than being segregated like a mini-game, which is the worst kind IMO (ala MotA, or Witcher 2) is impressive for a non-action party game.

Agreed, that is why I"d rather have the simple invisibility skill with the opposing side having a check to see stealth. It is not super realistic, but the best way to do it, if a game is not built around stealth from the start.

I certainly do not want stealth to be like one of those dialog checks, that tend to use a skill once every 7 hours of gameplay, to justify the skills existence. Stealth should be a skill you use often.

My original question was mostly about the best way to handle stealth in the game, not the way everyone wishes it could be. There is no way we are going to get Alpa Protocol, Deus Ex stealth. There is no reason to even discuss an all stealth playthrough that take in account light conditions and guard patrol routes, this is a game where stealth is just invis, soemthing to do as a rogue before the combat begins......imho.

[Firky]

^ I don't have a problem with using stealth as a combat thing. But surely it has more potential?

Even in Baldur's Gate 2, which was essentially what you're describing, I recall moments. There was a dungeon with heaps of vampires (level drain, eek) where you could invisible one companion and go on a detour to get a key from a chest which opened a door you could sneak everyone else too. I assume the level was designed that way. Was there some kind of ogre who was cooking humans who hinted at the key? I don't know.

Like, with a bit of creative thinking, within the rules of the game and noticing the way the level was designed, you could prevent lots of level drain, especially early in the game.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Stealth was fine in DA:O. You could explore solo with it and fight with it.

Would I like it to be able to do more? Maybe, but IMO rogues already have a lot of unique things they can do. Traps, locks and stealth being the key three.

Mages got just about all their non-combat spells nerfed for DA2, and warriors just got to look shiny in their armour. Really I'd like to see these two classes get some utility skills. Limiting all abilities to what's useful in combat, and picking locks, is boring.

[Kileyan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Stealth was fine in DA:O. You could explore solo with it and fight with it.

Would I like it to be able to do more? Maybe, but IMO rogues already have a lot of unique things they can do. Traps, locks and stealth being the key three.

Mages got just about all their non-combat spells nerfed for DA2, and warriors just got to look shiny in their armour. Really I'd like to see these two classes get some utility skills. Limiting all abilities to what's useful in combat, and picking locks, is boring.

I agree that mages lost a lot of their debuffs and variety in DA2, but they never did have any non combat spells in Dragon Ages. Again, I agree, their spell repertoire became just different damage spells mostly, I miss all the debuffs from spirit and the other lines of spells.

As for Warriors, all they ever were was the best tanks in the game, that isn't a lack of utility, that is controlling the most bestest utility in the entire game. You can frown and moan that warriors can't do anything (look shiny in armor), but no one else can stand in front of a Dragon and live. They just happen to have the least variety but the most darn useful utility. That was even augmented in DA2, they made them also great at dps and the sword and board warrior was the most fun i've had outside of my favorite class(rogue) in many games.

[Firky]

I spent the first two hours of DA:O trying to bash chests with a warrior.

[Kileyan]

Firky wrote...

I spent the first two hours of DA:O trying to bash chests with a warrior.

and I spent several hours on the message boards asking why every mage spell was a World of Warcraft damage or combat spell. I miss bash open chests or unlock spells.

Dragon Ages is shallow, there are zero non combat abilities or spells, nothing really to do with your character skills happens, unless he is killing things, steamlined further in DA2.

Modifié par Kileyan, 06 novembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[Brenden7]

Didn't play MoTA but I enjoyed how stealth was done in KoA

Modifié par Brenden7, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[BubbleDncr]

Kileyan wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think stealth would be cool if you had to go into cover-points or shadows or something in order to enter stealth, and then you remained in "stealth mode" for a certain amount of time after you left that spot - and maybe just the more points you put in stealth the longer amount of time that lasts - though I'm talking a matter of seconds.

 

Ya know, that is actually a pretty awesome idea. I would make stealth something useable to some degree everywhere, but encourage a heavy expenditure in the stealth tree to be able to make it point to point and do usefull stuff in between.

In the event that Bioware just had to have an encounter or two where stealth was simply impossibe(much as I hate the idea), it would give them an out to.

A matter of seconds is too low though, I still want the iconic rouge, sneaking ahead and removing traps before his cohorts engage in combat, but anyways still a great idea. It is nice compromise between old school stealth that can be used often, and the "realistic" stealth that I can't imagine Bioware has the time to implement fully.

Well, when I say a matter of seconds, it's basically be to encourage players to move between cover spots. So like, maybe 1st level stealth only gives you 5 seconds of stealth after you leave a cover spot - enough time to go directly to another spot, or sneak up on a nearby enemy. Maybe the last level in stealth gets it up to 15 or 20 seconds, which would be enough time to disarm a couple traps between cover spots.

So even with only one level in stealth, you could still scout ahead as long as you found cover spots along the way.

[Little Princess Peach]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think stealth would be cool if you had to go into cover-points or shadows or something in order to enter stealth, and then you remained in "stealth mode" for a certain amount of time after you left that spot - and maybe just the more points you put in stealth the longer amount of time that lasts - though I'm talking a matter of seconds.

The idea would be that of course the bad guys didn't see you while you were hiding, and that you didn't draw attention to yourself while you moved (they could be daydreaming, glancing the other way, whatever).

That's the only way I can really think (in my 5 minutes of solo brainstorming) of how they could do a stealth system that made even a tiny bit of sense, but worked both in and out of combat.

to me that sounds like AC's blending where you stay blended for 3seconds when ur out of the hidding place.

[BubbleDncr]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think stealth would be cool if you had to go into cover-points or shadows or something in order to enter stealth, and then you remained in "stealth mode" for a certain amount of time after you left that spot - and maybe just the more points you put in stealth the longer amount of time that lasts - though I'm talking a matter of seconds.

The idea would be that of course the bad guys didn't see you while you were hiding, and that you didn't draw attention to yourself while you moved (they could be daydreaming, glancing the other way, whatever).

That's the only way I can really think (in my 5 minutes of solo brainstorming) of how they could do a stealth system that made even a tiny bit of sense, but worked both in and out of combat.

to me that sounds like AC's blending where you stay blended for 3seconds when ur out of the hidding place.

Haven't played that one, so I wouldn't know. You have an awesome looking Warden, btw.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Kileyan wrote...

I agree that mages lost a lot of their debuffs and variety in DA2, but they never did have any non combat spells in Dragon Ages. Again, I agree, their spell repertoire became just different damage spells mostly, I miss all the debuffs from spirit and the other lines of spells.

Agreed, and that's true, they didn't have much in the way of non-combat spells even then, though I did get a lot of use out of Haste.

I'm just spoiled after having played games like Ultima 7.  And I dislike the continued increased focus on action/combat.

As for Warriors, all they ever were was the best tanks in the game, that isn't a lack of utility, that is controlling the most bestest utility in the entire game. You can frown and moan that warriors can't do anything (look shiny in armor), but no one else can stand in front of a Dragon and live. They just happen to have the least variety but the most darn useful utility. That was even augmented in DA2, they made them also great at dps and the sword and board warrior was the most fun i've had outside of my favorite class(rogue) in many games.

My rogues and mages still lasted longer fighting the High Dragon, not to mention the Arishok. Warriors and designed for crowd control, not taking down bosses. Even as damage sponges they're fairly useless.

So, yeah, I'll continue to frown and moan.