256 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

"organics will be perfected by fully integrating with synthetic technology , synthetics will in turn achieve full understanding"

some bs like that. it is pretty much what bill said. except it says that organics are not perfect and flawed which is the case. but also that they need to be changed. synthesis pretty much removes organics , perfecting us . takes away individuality . and takes away your right to choose.

it does also force the reapers future on you.

and the whole. ppl can turn the sh*t off. is just to make ppl feel better lol. they are no olonger humans or what not. well advanced humans anyways /

Modifié par ghost9191, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[Vigilant111]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The idea is that they can integrate with technology and do whatever they want with their bodies. If they want to remain the same, then they can. If they want to become something exotic, then they can. If they want to join a hive-mind, then they can. If they want to remain isolated, then they can. They can live up to their own idea of "perfection".

Synthesis is vague enough to allow such an interpretation.

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

[CosmicGnosis]

ghost9191 wrote...

"organics will be perfected by fully integrating with synthetic technology , synthetics will in turn achieve full understanding"

some bs like that. it is pretty much what bill said. except it says that organics are not perfect and flawed which is the case. but also that they need to be changed. synthesis pretty much removes organics , perfecting us . takes away individuality . and takes away your right to choose.

it does also force the reapers future on you.

and the whole. ppl can turn the sh*t off. is just to make ppl feel better lol. they are no olonger humans or what not. well advanced humans anyways /

Our bodies aren't perfect. We grow old and weak. We get cancer. We die.

And are the leaves no longer leaves?

[CosmicGnosis]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

[zsom]

Actually destroy invalidates Javik. By choosing destroy you decide not to believe the catalyst (and Javik), you decide that organics and synthetics can coexist so there is no need for an invasive restructuring of our DNA or a mass mind control of the Geth/Reapers, Destroy is the only truly optimistic choice which puts faith in future generations, although it does come at a great price.

[ghost9191]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

"organics will be perfected by fully integrating with synthetic technology , synthetics will in turn achieve full understanding"

some bs like that. it is pretty much what bill said. except it says that organics are not perfect and flawed which is the case. but also that they need to be changed. synthesis pretty much removes organics , perfecting us . takes away individuality . and takes away your right to choose.

it does also force the reapers future on you.

and the whole. ppl can turn the sh*t off. is just to make ppl feel better lol. they are no olonger humans or what not. well advanced humans anyways /

Our bodies aren't perfect. We grow old and weak. We get cancer. We die.

And are the leaves no longer leaves?

i said we weren't perfect, but it is the fact we overcome those limitations , flaws that make us who we are or whatever.  how we grow. synthesis throws that out the window when it forces a machines version of perfection on every organic being , hence reminds me of the borg

as said also. we become advanced humans. there was no choice in the matter.  it changes what they are, they are no longer *normal * humans . and once we start down that road , where does it stop , no such thing as perfection. not if they are partly organic, which is where i get the whole , removing organics , which it pretty much does

[ghost9191]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

[clennon8]

zsom wrote...

Actually destroy invalidates Javik. By choosing destroy you decide not to believe the catalyst (and Javik), you decide that organics and synthetics can coexist so there is no need for an invasive restructuring of our DNA or a mass mind control of the Geth/Reapers, Destroy is the only truly optimistic choice which puts faith in future generations, although it does come at a great price.

Yep. Self-determinism. Basically the same thing I said two pages ago.

Destroy is the only one that promotes this, out of the original RGB choices. Control does not affirm self-determinism, for obvious reasons. And no, Cosmic Gnosis, Synthesis doesn't affirm self-determinism either. Synthesis is inherently cynical, saying "You can't get there on your own. I have to hybridize all organics and synthetics, so you'll play nice." Synthesis is skipping to the last page of the lesson book, without learning all the contributory lessons along the way.

[AxStapleton]

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

I have to agree with this sentiment.

[CosmicGnosis]

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

Yeah, I'm thinking about not creating these threads anymore. I don't know yet.

And how about telling other people to stop bashing Control and Synthesis? Oh, but I suppose that's not possible, right? Those choices are objectively wrong. There's nothing good about them. The only right choice is the one that throws an entire form of existence under the bus.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

Yeah, I'm thinking about not creating these threads anymore. I don't know yet.

And how about telling other people to stop bashing Control and Synthesis? Oh, but I suppose that's not possible, right? Those choices are objectively wrong. There's nothing good about them. The only right choice is the one that throws an entire form of existence under the bus.

None of the choices are great. There is only one that is the lesser evil. Which of those is the lesser evil is up to you.

[ghost9191]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

Yeah, I'm thinking about not creating these threads anymore. I don't know yet.

And how about telling other people to stop bashing Control and Synthesis? Oh, but I suppose that's not possible, right? Those choices are objectively wrong. There's nothing good about them. The only right choice is the one that throws an entire form of existence under the bus.

well i wouldn't call it a bus but yeah . 

and ppl can bash all they want i just said you shouldn't lol . i like giving my interpretation of the endings though . you can pick control. don't mind it but synthesis ., it is kinda wrong but eh .  but that is my opinion . i try to understand them better though. usually doesn't help


but that is what i mean. pick a choice , but don't get after others because of theirs. i get it you don't want to sacrifice the geth,. nor do i but sometimes hard choices have to be made . easy road isn't always the right one

Modifié par ghost9191, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ghost9191 wrote...

the rachni weren't indoctrinated. they were forced into slavery.

Of course.

Like I said, nobody willingly goes to become indoctrinated.

But when the Reapers get their hands on you, indoctrination typically follows.

I made a thread about it and heard not 1 good reason to believe she is not indoctrinated by that point. Sorry, but people's reasoning for freeing her just reek of metagaming.

the geth sided with the reapers. that seems to be a bigger threat .  geth could have easily came under the control of the reapers. could sabotage , or take out the some of the fleet before they knew what was happening

They didn't make that decision in a vaccum. The reason was clear: they allied with them to save themselves from extinction. When their extinction is no longer an issue, they have no reason to keep working for them. So this fear of them sabotaging the fleet is completely exaggerated.

the geth and rachni are in the same situation. in the past they attacked and caused war. now they are under reaper control , one by choice other forced. you can't give the ones that sided with the reapers because they thought it was a good idea a chance because it is strength and then deny that to the rachni saying it is sabotage beacuse they were forced into it.

I'd free the rachni if I didn't suspect indoctrination and/or had good reason to believe she isn't. However, I do suspect it and have no reason to believe she's not brainwashed already (other than metagaming). For that reason, all bets are off. Organic indoctrination is irreversible.

Synthetic remote-control is not irreversible, though. The geth can be freed from control, and are no threat as long as their extinction is not imminent, which works for me since I'm putting all my chips onto one battle.

and that brings me to the part about strength over security ,
geth you choose strength , rachni you chooose security . a contridiction
for your statement that you prefer strength

You're taking my quote out of context.

Strength > Safety is not an absolute claim by me, I meant it only in regards to the geth. In that particular instance, their strength as allies outweighs the safety concerns about them. In the rachni's instance, it does not, because the safety concerns are much higher if the Reapers control her mind, whereas I know that the geth are freed after Rannoch and will not turn back in the near future (which is all I need).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[ghost9191]

the geth turned twice , some worship them as gods, evidence says that they are a pretty big risk . they could just be playing shep so that shep doesn't destroy them over rannoch . there are no gurrantees. same as with the rachni . the geth are just as likely to go to the reapers again as the rachni are . both take meta gaming to know otherwise

[KingZayd]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

Yeah, I'm thinking about not creating these threads anymore. I don't know yet.

And how about telling other people to stop bashing Control and Synthesis? Oh, but I suppose that's not possible, right? Those choices are objectively wrong. There's nothing good about them. The only right choice is the one that throws an entire form of existence under the bus.

well yes. getting rid of the Reapers is the only right choice.

[Karrie788]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Perfection is an illusion, if perfection exists, then perfectionists would be out of jobs

The problem with your statement regarding synthesis is that organics do not limit the application of self-determination onto only oneself. They apply the idea of perfection onto others as well, because organics are social beings, hence you have the struggle of politics, conflict of ideals. The real world is not as simple as "I can always be what I want to be", and this is where the concept of hope comes in to remedy such a grim situation 

Yeah, because Synthesis couldn't possibly have any redeeming qualities, right?

I'm growing weary of these ending debates.

so don't make threads about them

pick a ending and don't bash others , just roll with it

Yeah, I'm thinking about not creating these threads anymore. I don't know yet.

And how about telling other people to stop bashing Control and Synthesis? Oh, but I suppose that's not possible, right? Those choices are objectively wrong. There's nothing good about them. The only right choice is the one that throws an entire form of existence under the bus.

They all have good and bad things about them. I personally can't stand Synthesis, but if it works for some people, then great.
Just pick the one you feel relates the best to your moral values.

[KingZayd]

Yate wrote...

Control is the only choice with no real downside

and the geth are not alive, no amount of Legion puppy eyes will change that fact

Yeah that's right... give the most unstoppable person in the galaxy control of an army of Reapers forever. Because nothing could possibly go wrong over infinite years, right?

[Argolas]

OP, I agree, it is not good that Destroy supports this philosophy. That's why in my headcanon ending, the law against creation of synthetics will be lifted, and they will be treated equal in honor of the Geth, EDI and every other synthetic that had to die for the mistakes that the Leviathan, their "intelligence" and ultimately the reapers made.

[thehomeworld]

Han Shot First wrote...

Destroy is not a war crime.

Destroy is the only ending that truly guarantees that the Reaper threat has been ended for all time. As such, is the only ending that guarantees the survival of every organic space faring civilization for the foreseeable future. Even it comes at the cost of losing the Geth (which is collateral damage at best), it falls under the umbrella of military necessity.

Military necessity is a legal concept used in international humanitarian law (IHL) as part of the legal justification for attacks on legitimate military targets that may have adverse, even terrible, consequences for civilians and civilian objects. It means that military forces in planning military actions are permitted to take into account the practical requirements of a military situation at any given moment and the imperatives of winning. The concept of military necessity acknowledges that even under the laws of war, winning the war or battle is a legitimate consideration, though it must be put alongside other considerations of IHL."

http://www.crimesofw...tary-necessity/


The Geth also can be rebuilt. Even if individuals are lost, their civilization isn't.
 
In a war where billions of lives have already been lost and with extinction looming for humanity and every other sapient space faring species in the galaxy, should Shepard really waste time worrying about the loss of individual Geth? Unlike with organics, death is not necessarily final for them.

Pretty much this you didn't become a spector for the geth you didn't want to stop Saren for the geth only after one meets Legion do some people go geth rock! But did you save human colonies for the geth? Did you do the sucide mission for the geth? No you did it for organics as a whole and to then say I can't destroy the reapers because of the geth who I have only one friend with is rediculous. The entire reaper war was never about preserving the geth it was about preserving organics from annilation.

There is no valid case that can be made as to why the geth should remain alive beyound the we think they're alive they say they are so therefore they should be we're taking their word for it under that clause the reapers too are alive they weren't just machines programmed by the cataylist to kill people acording to soverign each has a mind of their own and each is a nation so choosing control enslaves nations and choosing combine forces organic componets onto those nations as well. Killing these hostial nations is the only way to ensure your galaxy lives and killing off the geth who have reaper code ensures the threat is nutrulized its the one where organics win and are allowed to prosper.

As far as each ending goes:

Snub ending you/organics morally win
Destroy organics win physically
Sythesis Reapers, Saren, Soverign win both physically and phylosophically
Control TIM, Catalyist starchild win phylosophically

Modifié par thehomeworld, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[The Aesthetic Ghant]

Completely disagree.

The ending and the options come down to the "hard choices". Similar to the warden on ME2 without the crooked operation. You can either Refuse and doom everyone and make everyone's sacrifice in vain. Or you can Control which has no guarantee that Shepard will remain sane and not eventually turn into Harbinger 2.0. You can synthesize and essentially violate/rape the entire galaxy without their permission and change their lives for the very worse or the best, you don't know. But Destroy?

Destroy ends it all at the cost of synthetic life. So basically you can either gamble the fate of the universe with the other choices. Or you can end it all together and destroy them so nothing has a chance of going wrong. The synthetics are collateral damage. I'd pick destroy in a heart beat. The ending isn't for bleeding hearts, it's about making the hard choices. The choices that lesser men/women cannot make. Destroy is the best guarantee, I am a destroyer.

[garrusfan1]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how Javik's getting validated. If Shepard wants to sign on with Javik's ideas it's OK, but it's possible to pick Destroy without agreeing with him.

And if you really believe that Synthetics shouldn't be thrown out the airlock, why are you picking Destroy?

Because I want the reapers dead and while I stood up for the geth and edi destroy is the only option to me

[CronoDragoon]

It's tempting to simplify the reasons for choosing an ending like this in order to feel better about your own choice, but the fact of the matter is that a myriad of factors can wedge their way into a good argument for each. Destroy is no more pro-organic than Control is pro-fascism or Synthesis is anti-autonomy.

[BHRamsay]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how Javik's getting validated. If Shepard wants to sign on with Javik's ideas it's OK, but it's possible to pick Destroy without agreeing with him.

And if you really believe that Synthetics shouldn't be thrown out the airlock, why are you picking Destroy?

This:)

[CosmicGnosis]

I just hate that Destroy doesn't challenge the galaxy's widespread anti-synthetic sentiment. Javik's ideology is not challenged at all in the Destroy ending. People like him believe that synthetics aren't truly alive. Destroy does nothing to change his mind.

[RockSW]

javiks a boss, deal with it