256 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

Eh, I don't see it at that.

Bioware just decided that an instant kill reapers button would probably be a favourite, so they included a ''oh by the way, this will also destroy all synthetics because we say so''. It's a stupid, narrative-forced sacrifice. Personally, had they replaced synthetics (not just Geth, mind you) with the Salarians, Asari, Vorcha, even humanity, whatever, I would have blown that tube to kingdom come either way. Destroy the mother****ers, and that's the definite end of that. It sucks that a race has to be sacrificed, but so be it, whatever they are.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, but the race doesn't have to be sacrificed. You just choose genocide over the other options. Don't try to get out of owning your decision.

[DoomsdayDevice]

ATiBotka wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...


He's the freaking Reaper AI. That alone should have alarm bells going off all over you.

And that liar Reaper AI helps you, even if Destroy is the only option.

No, he does not.

I think all the options are traps.

Pick control, and your mind will be controlled.
Pick synthesis, and your mind will be synthesized. (Preserved in Reaper form)
Pick destroy, and your mind will be destroyed.

A Shepard with low EMS (who destroyed the collector base) will be offered destroy only, because his/her mind is not strong enough to be of any use to the Reapers (low EMS), and does not show a tendency to want to control them either.

A Shepard with low EMS (who decided to keep the collector base) will be offered control only, because his/her mind is not strong enough to ascend to Reaper status (low EMS), but shows a tendency to want to control the Reapers, so (s)he is fit for being controlled only.

Picking destroy is the only option that resists indoctrination, because it is the one choice where you do not willingly align yourself with the Reapers. You are of no use to them, because you will not take their side, so they will destroy your mind. The only reason Shepard will survive his mind being destroyed in high EMS is because (s)he's got a very strong mind (extraordinary willpower, as demonstrated by high EMS).

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:29 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not trying to godwin this, but if you lived in WW2, and had the opportunity to end the war by blowing up the building in which Hitler was, would you not blow it up because innocents in the building might die? No, you blow it up, because in the end you'll spare more innocent lives by doing so.

And if I take control of that building, I'll save even more lives. And will do so in a heartbeat.

Do yourself a favour and play Project Overlord again.

Now there's a guy who commits to a gruesome synthesis in an attempt to mind control an entire race with the noble intentions of avoiding a bloody war. A victory without casualties!

What happens to that guy? Ah yes, he who wanted to control the machines, ended up being enslaved by the machine. Gee, I wonder what Bioware was trying to tell us!

The ending foreshadowing is all over the place.

[Xilizhra]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not trying to godwin this, but if you lived in WW2, and had the opportunity to end the war by blowing up the building in which Hitler was, would you not blow it up because innocents in the building might die? No, you blow it up, because in the end you'll spare more innocent lives by doing so.

And if I take control of that building, I'll save even more lives. And will do so in a heartbeat.

Do yourself a favour and play Project Overlord again.

Now there's a guy who commits to a gruesome synthesis in an attempt to mind control an entire race with the noble intentions of avoiding a bloody war. A victory without casualties!

What happens to that guy? Ah yes, he who wanted to control the machines, ended up being enslaved by the machine. Gee, I wonder what Bioware was trying to tell us!

The ending foreshadowing is all over the place.

That's not even slightly accurate. David was never under the machine's control, David was controlling the machine. He was also nuts and lashing out, but still, all of it was done by David's volition, albeit his volition under the influence of severe torture.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Ah, but the race doesn't have to be sacrificed. You just choose genocide
over the other options. Don't try to get out of owning your decision.

I assume this was directed at me.

I suppose I could also create God-Emperor Shepard, refuse to do anything and be saved by Liara's little box, or genetically rape the entire galaxy. The first option is passable but not my favourite since I have a hard time to make it in-character for a Shepard that has fought Cerberus for a whole game, the second is just trolling by Bioware, and the third is an utterly illogical travesty that I refuse to endorse in any way, shape or form.

So y'see, I fully assume the decision. I took the less forced choice, the least utterly stupid one, in order to get with the **** ending we got and destroy the Reapers once and for all. If it means making a sacrifice, fine. Whenever it's the Geth or any other race is irrelevant.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not trying to godwin this, but if you lived in WW2, and had the opportunity to end the war by blowing up the building in which Hitler was, would you not blow it up because innocents in the building might die? No, you blow it up, because in the end you'll spare more innocent lives by doing so.

And if I take control of that building, I'll save even more lives. And will do so in a heartbeat.

Do yourself a favour and play Project Overlord again.

Now there's a guy who commits to a gruesome synthesis in an attempt to mind control an entire race with the noble intentions of avoiding a bloody war. A victory without casualties!

What happens to that guy? Ah yes, he who wanted to control the machines, ended up being enslaved by the machine. Gee, I wonder what Bioware was trying to tell us!

The ending foreshadowing is all over the place.

That's not even slightly accurate. David was never under the machine's control, David was controlling the machine. He was also nuts and lashing out, but still, all of it was done by David's volition, albeit his volition under the influence of severe torture.

If he was truly in control, he wouldn't go nuts or suffer torture.

If interfacing with a simple VI is what leads to this, imagine what interfacing with a hyper-intelligent, billions of years old, mind-controlling Reaper AI will do to you.

If you think it will just step aside and let you take over, that's incredibly naive. That's just what it wants you to believe.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

The message from Overlord is simply that we shouldn't conduct dangerous, unpredictable experiments with technology we do not understand. Which is exactly what the crucible is. Technology we do not understand. Let alone if the entire galaxy is at stake. Shepard says this him/herself in Overlord.

[Xilizhra]

So y'see, I fully assume the decision. I took the less forced choice, the least utterly stupid one, in order to get with the **** ending we got and destroy the Reapers once and for all. If it means making a sacrifice, fine. Whenever it's the Geth or any other race is irrelevant.

So easy to make a sacrifice when it's not your own.

If he was truly in control, he wouldn't go nuts or suffer torture.

If interfacing with a simple VI is what leads to this, imagine what interfacing with a hyper-intelligent, billions of years old, mind-controlling Reaper AI will do to you.

If you think it will just step aside and let you take over, that's incredibly naive. That's just what it wants you to believe.

The circumstances differ and the ending supports me.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

So y'see, I fully assume the decision. I took the less forced choice, the least utterly stupid one, in order to get with the **** ending we got and destroy the Reapers once and for all. If it means making a sacrifice, fine. Whenever it's the Geth or any other race is irrelevant.

So easy to make a sacrifice when it's not your own.

If he was truly in control, he wouldn't go nuts or suffer torture.

If interfacing with a simple VI is what leads to this, imagine what interfacing with a hyper-intelligent, billions of years old, mind-controlling Reaper AI will do to you.

If you think it will just step aside and let you take over, that's incredibly naive. That's just what it wants you to believe.

The circumstances differ and the ending supports me.

The circumstances differ only in the sense that you're interfacing with something vastly more dangerous than a simple VI. Add to that the fact that you have no idea what the crucible does except for what the Reaper overlord tells you about it. Oh and the entire galaxy is at risk. That's some gamble you're taking.

Shepard himself says in Overlord the experiment shouldn't be conducted if you have no idea what the technology does.

As for the ending supporting you, keep in mind that if a species 'ascends' / is preserved in Reaper form, their minds and memories will be preserved. In Cerberus News, there is an entire story about a civilization who were about to be extinguished, so they uploaded their minds and memories into a computer onboard a star ship. They were living inside a virtual reality. Keep that in mind when viewing the EC ending sequences.

James Vega: "It's... not right. It looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but it's not right. It's all just an illusion."

Joker: "What if this--like, everything you're seeing now--is a simulation?"
EDI: "Shepard, I can confirm that this is the real world."
Joker: "Oh, okay, well that'll solve that. Man, good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is."
EDI: "Perhaps I missed some salient information."

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
The circumstances differ and the ending supports me.

No, your interpretation of the ending supports you.  There are many interpretations that don't.

[Xilizhra]

The circumstances differ only in the sense that you're interfacing with something vastly more dangerous than a simple VI. Add to that the fact that you have no idea what the crucible does except for what the Reaper overlord tells you about it. Oh and the entire galaxy is at risk. That's some gamble you're taking.

If the Reaper overlord is lying to me and wants me dead, then I'm screwed no matter what I do, hence it doesn't really matter.

Shepard himself says in Overlord the experiment shouldn't be conducted if you have no idea what the technology does.

I agree, provided you're in a situation where you don't have to screw with unknown technology in some way or see the whole galaxy die.

As for the ending supporting you, keep in mind that if a species 'ascends' / is preserved in Reaper form, their minds and memories will be preserved. In Cerberus News, there is an entire story about a civilization who were about to be extinguished, so they uploaded their minds and memories into a computer onboard a star ship. They were living inside a virtual reality. Keep that in mind when viewing the EC ending sequences.

So... if everyone is perfectly happy inside a Reaper, that would kinda detract from the supposed horror they were going for.

[Han Shot First]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah, but the race doesn't have to be sacrificed. You just choose genocide over the other options. Don't try to get out of owning your decision.

It isn't genocide. Shepard doesn't set out to destroy the Geth. Their destruction is an unattended consequence of destroying the Reapers. It is an example of collateral damage, and it falls under the umbrella of military necessity.

Death for the Geth also isn't necessarily permanent. They can be rebuilt. EDI was destroyed once before on Luna, yet when she was rebuilt and upgraded she still retained memories of her time on the Moon. Like Shepard's resurrection with the Lazarus Project, death was not permanent for her.
 
Even if individual Geth can not be rebuilt in the same way that EDI was, the civilization itself is not permanently lost.

anillee wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Destroy is not a war crime.

Destroy is the only ending that truly guarantees that the Reaper threat has been ended for all time. As such, is the only ending that guarantees the survival of every organic space faring civilization for the foreseeable future. Even it comes at the cost of losing the Geth (which is collateral damage at best), it falls under the umbrella of military necessity.

Military necessity is a legal concept used in international humanitarian law (IHL) as part of the legal justification for attacks on legitimate military targets that may have adverse, even terrible, consequences for civilians and civilian objects. It means that military forces in planning military actions are permitted to take into account the practical requirements of a military situation at any given moment and the imperatives of winning. The concept of military necessity acknowledges that even under the laws of war, winning the war or battle is a legitimate consideration, though it must be put alongside other considerations of IHL."

http://www.crimesofw...tary-necessity/


The Geth also can be rebuilt. Even if individuals are lost, their civilization isn't.

In a war where billions of lives have already been lost and with extinction looming for humanity and every other sapient space faring species in the galaxy, should Shepard really waste time worrying about the loss of individual Geth? Unlike with organics, death is not necessarily final for them.

Sound reasoning, and seeing as Shepard is military, it's logical to assume this would be the Commander's choice. There's a point where Shepard even says something along the lines of "I'm not a politician, I'm a soldier." A good soldier at the end of the day will always complete their objective. That's what comes first. Shepard's objective is to end the reaper threat therefore the choice is clear: DESTROY.

I agree.

Being former military myself, that reasoning is a large part of why I had Shepard choose Destroy. It is the only one that actually completes his mission, and mission accomplishment is the primary responsibility of a combat leader. All other considerations are secondary.

I see the destruction fo the Geth as being similar to Hackett's sacrifice of the Second Fleet. It was the kind of terrible decision that no combat leader would look forward to and likely agonizes over afterwards, but it also had to be done.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Xilizhra]

It isn't genocide. Shepard doesn't set out to destroy the Geth. Their destruction is an unattended consequence of destroying the Reapers. It is an example of collateral damage, and it falls under the umbrella of military necessity.

Death for the Geth also isn't necessarily permanent. They can be rebuilt. EDI was destroyed once before on Luna, yet when she was rebuilt and upgraded she still retained memories of her time on the Moon. Like Shepard's resurrection with the Lazarus Project, death was not permanent for her.

Even if individual Geth can not be rebuilt in the same way that EDI was, the civilization itself is not permanently lost.

Given that EDI was labeled as being wholly dead, she's likely been destroyed beyond any hope of any memory recovery. Ditto for the geth. The civilization is permanently lost; all that could be reused is the empty platforms. It also counts as genocide of the Reapers. And the obliteration of the geth isn't actually necessary, given the other options.

Being former military myself, that reasoning is a large part of why I had Shepard choose Destroy. It is the only one that actually completes his mission, and mission accomplishment is the primary responsibility of a combat leader. All other considerations are secondary.

The mission is to stop the harvest. Any of the three options accomplishes it. And if you still want to say that it's against the mission? Allow me to quote Miranda: "I noticed. Consider this my resignation."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[thearbiter1337]

Bill Casey wrote...

Just pick refuse already...

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Synthesis is not exactly what Saren was all about. Saren wanted to surrender and become a tool for the Reapers.

Bzzt WRONG!!!

Saren: The tranformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to me.


Why do you think he's studying indoctrination on Virmire?
Saren sees himself as working with the Reapers to save lives. He's using Sovereign as a means to control others...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Han Shot First]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that EDI was labeled as being wholly dead, she's likely been destroyed beyond any hope of any memory recovery. Ditto for the geth. The civilization is permanently lost; all that could be reused is the empty platforms. It also counts as genocide of the Reapers. And the obliteration of the geth isn't actually necessary, given the other options.

The civilization isn't permanently lost, even if individual Geth are. The Geth can be rebuilt. If an organic species is wiped out it is extinct, and there is no coming back from it. As machines the Geth do not face the same problem. Hardware can be built and code can be rewritten.

The mission is to stop the harvest. Any of the three options accomplishes it. And if you still want to say that it's against the mission? Allow me to quote Miranda: "I noticed. Consider this my resignation."

Control and Synthesis are stalemate endings that fail to achieve victory over the Reapers. As stalemates they also represent a partial failture of Shepard's mission.

Both end with the Reaper fleet still intact and capable of wiping out the galaxy. Refuse of course is an outright defeat. The only ending that truly guarantees that the space faring civilizations of the galaxy are saved from the Reapers for all time is Destroy.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Applepie_Svk]

I mentioned it erlier, it does not validate as much Javik´s as much Catalyst´s belief.

Difference betwen the Javik and Catalyst is that Javik is the product of cycle where Reapers destroyed everything and everyone which he stand for, Javik saw everything destroyed by synthetics and even admit that his synthetics were turned into war by the Reapers, so he believes that synthetics are dangerous and shouldn´t be trusted.

Catalyst from the other side was created in order to bring a peace betwen the organics and synthetics, and he failed everytime so he found a new solution another failed one. Catalyst believe that co-existence betwen the organics and synthetics is not possibile because he always failed to bring one, so the best solution was to rape both synthetics and organics and harvest them as some kind of crops... And there is the interesting part where so called confclict was just last two cycles caused by Reapers, when they used synthetic race in order to attack against the organics.

[Someone With Mass]

Javik is not wrong is in his philosophy, because I doubt many would think differently if they had gone through the same things he did. I may not agree with his aggressive sense of protection, but I understand it.

Also, Destroy doesn't invalidate anything. People can still create new synthetic life if they want to.

To cast it all aside would just be ignorant. Because then they can might as well stop developing starships, since those things lead them to the Citadel, which in itself turned out to be a trap and certain warships have enough firepower to devastate a planet. One can even argue that they lead to such things as the rachni wars and the following krogan rebellions.

If anything, it can also teach them to be much more careful when developing synthetics, since most/all synthetic rebellions have been because of incompetent carelessness.

When someone like the Leviathans, the "apex race" created a synthetic to stop other synthetics to slaughter their thralls and deliberately decided to not give it any moral restrains, it's kind of difficult for me to feel sorry for them when they get themselves killed because of it.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[KingZayd]

Bill Casey wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Synthesis is not exactly what Saren was all about. Saren wanted to surrender and become a tool for the Reapers.

Bzzt WRONG!!!

Saren: The tranformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to me.


Why do you think he's studying indoctrination on Virmire?

Bzzt WRONG!!!

At the time of Vermire, he doesn't want to surrender and become a tool. He just wants revenge against humanity.

Later on the transformation from ally to servant has already taken place and he is keen to serve Sovereign in the hopes that Organics will be spared if they prove to be useful.

[Bill Casey]

Bzzt WRONG


Sovereign has improved him. Upgraded him. After Virmire, he's a vision of the future. The evolution of all organic life...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 06 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[KingZayd]

Bill Casey wrote...

After he's shoved full of reaper tech and beyond ****ed...

yeah, and THAT'S when he starts talking about the synthetic upgrades. He's been promised the upgrades if he helps Sovereign.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Javik view point validates the Catalyst's. He really should stop hating the Reapers, they're very similar in view points.

[Bill Casey]

Actually, no...
He doesn't want to surrender on the Citadel...

[thearbiter1337]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Javik view point validates the Catalyst's. He really should stop hating the Reapers, they're very similar in view points.

Funny thing is that this is true 

But Javik still thinks the Reapers are like Soverign