60 réponses à ce sujet

[craze9]

I just finished my first playthrough, logging over 100 hours. That's a lot of time to spend in a game, and Dragon Age is definitely a great game overall. BUT in the end I found myself rather disappointed with the game's main storyline.

Really, the main story is extremely simple, and not very long. There's a blight, you're a Grey Warden, your mentor Duncan and the king Cailan are betrayed by Loghain and perish (the one "twist" or "reversal" in the story). Act 2 - you recover old Warden treaties and gather allies. Act 3 - you confront the archdemon and its horde with your allies, and kill it.

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots in the "gather the allies" phase. In
Orzammar there's a political squabble, the Elves have a werewolf
problem, etc. While I think the writing in these subplots is quite good, they are extrinsic to the main storyline, and don't strengthen it.

In fact it's rather contrived that all your allies have some independent problem unrelated to the blight that you have to "solve" before they can aid you. But I'm not complaining about the subplots - all those areas are handled well, and make for the most interesting parts of the game. But for the purposes of the main story, it's very straightforward - you show your treaties, and the allies come on board. If they didn't all have so many problems (UNRELATED to the Blight) it would have been over very fast.

The only mystery or suspense of the story revolves around Loghain - why did he betray Cailan and start a civil war? I found the answer to this question to be really implausible and unsatisfying. In fact, barely any answer is given. "He became paranoid and crazy." Really? Why/how did he get so paranoid, given that he was previously an honorable war hero? No answer. Okay, even if he did just get a bit paranoid, does that really explain all his psycho tyrant behavior? His betrayal of his king and son-in-law?? In the Landsmeet the betrayal is kind of glossed over, as if Loghain genuinely thought he couldn't save Cailan and didn't consider it a betrayal at all. But the man AGREED to the battle plan, he PROMISED he would attack when the beacon was lit... it's obviously a stone cold betrayal, and that it isn't even treated as such is really lame. Never mind the idea that upon being defeated in a duel his whole perspective on the universe would suddenly change... Never mind that he would even agree to the Landsmeet when he's quite comfortable betraying kings, poisoning Arls, selling Elves - basically breaking every law he wants to. Never mind that the secret of his betrayal at Ostagar somehow stayed secret even though it was witnesses by an entire army... 

Then there's the third act. You fight a lot of darkspawn and another mindless dragon. Basically it's a bunch of battles that aren't even different from many you've already fought throughout the game. There's no drama, no revelations, nothing unexpected. The Archdemon is exactly what you expect, and you either sacrifice yourself or you don't. Never mind why Riordan thought it was a bright idea to jump on the Archdemon's back as it's flying instead of accompanying you and sacrificing himself like a good elder warden after you've actually DEFEATED the thing. Kind of a convenient way to force the protag to choose whether to sacrifice himself... Honestly as far as Darkspawn go I found the Deep Roads sequence, with the revelation of the Broodmother, much more interesting dramatically. The only thing approaching drama in the 3rd Act is the Morrigan surprise, and that is definitely interesting, but 1) it's easily avoided, depending on your character and 2) serves essentially as a lead-in to another game or expansion.

I think Dragon Age is a great game based on the world it depicts, the characters involved, and some excellent tactical combat and roleplaying gameplay. But its story is quite weak, and I expect better from Bioware. I could go on for pages comparing it to the stories of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and even Mass Effect. Those games make things personal for the protagonist from the beginning, keep suspense and mystery active for the player, and feature compelling, revelatory climaxes. Dragon Age doesn't, in my opinion. I hope future Dragon Age games or expansions change that.

[Suron]

not bothering to read that novel but what I will say, whether you've covered it or not, is the fact that there's too much time spent on the Politics of the land leading up to the Landsmeet..and hardly any time spent on building up the feeling of urgency/need/want to kill the Archdemon..

EDIT: ok I went back and did read it...and I agree with pretty much everything you said.../EDIT

the entire game is more focused on it..and then makes the Blight/Archdemon just an "oh yah there's this big Dragon in my dreams we have to kill" and that's it...BioWare did a ******-poor job of building up the BBEG in this game...because the REAL threat takes a backseat and feels just kinda thrown in against the political BS you have to settle.

Hell if you were a human noble you also have more built-up to hate/etc Howe then the Archdemon...the Archdemon is just a "he'll kill us all" BBEG in the background that ONLY has urgency because you're simply TOLD he will wipe you out..and no Lothering being the only place really affected by the Blight does NOT help this case....it was a sad outting really.

compared to other games it goes more like
(not in any particular order but the point is made)
1. Irenicus
2. Malak
3. Sephiroth
4. Kefka
5. Saren
6. Arthas
.
.
22. Flemeth
23. The High Dragon
.
.
732. Schmooples
.
.
1,032. Pidgeons
.
.
1,153. Archdemon (and only this high because you're TOLD he's a threat but barely SHOWN)

Modifié par Suron, 02 janvier 2010 - 07:21 .

[tmp7704]

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

edit: Incidentally, just because the archdemon doesn't bother to parley with you does not make it "mindless". There's multiple references in the game to the fact he's basically the whole mind for the darkspawn horde. He can also communicate and does so speaking to the darkspawn, it's simply his language isn't something your character or anyone but most senior Wardens can understand.

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 janvier 2010 - 07:36 .

[TheMadCat]

I thought Loghain's reasoning behind it all was fairly solid. He hates Orlais, he doesn't trust Orlais and would rather die then fight beside anyone from Orlais. He felt Cailan was essentially giving them the key to the castle by allowing legions of Orlesian troops to enter Fereldan in a moment of weakness. In Loghain's eyes Cailan was the one betraying his kingdom, tossing aside all the blood Maric and Loghain spread in order to give Fereldan it's freedom, and so he did what he felt was best for the people he risked and sacrificed so much for. Fearing a possible Civil War he began to systematically take out those who he feared would rise against him. Everything he did he felt was that it was best for Fereldan. Peace through blood so to speak.



As for the story in general, I though it was great up until Redcliff and the last few hours. I think people put to much focus on these twists and surprises in a plot when in reality the one key component to a great story is great story telling, which to me DA:O has. Aside from the last few hours where things feel rushed and lot's of important things are either ignored or missed, it was very well expressed and explained, great dialogue, and just enough suspense to keep you wanting more.



Now weather you like the actual plot is subjective. Personally I thought it was decent, I don't think it's actually over so I'll wait a year or two and see what pops up but overall, it was a good story.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Exactly, Loghain's entire existence stemmed around his hatred of Orlais. To add to that, he didn't believe in the Grey Wardens, didn't believe a true blight was coming, and didn't respect Cailan's idealistic, story book, war is glorious outlook. The same type of outlook many people here bash on Alistair for having towards the Grey Wardens. From what I understand, Maric was that way early on as well and Loghain did some screwing over of him also to get the results he thought were best. I think he believed Cailan, the Grey Wardens, and anyone who didn't see things his way were the true threat to Ferelden.



That said, he's a soddin' ruthless, crazy bastard who needs to die IMO.

[The Capital Gaultier]

It's a good story. I don't consider a story good because it's surprising.

*Also, Riordan performed a necessary part.  Fighting a flying Archdemon would have been impossible.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 02 janvier 2010 - 08:21 .

[TheMadCat]

Haha, awesome movie. Get me a 12 pack and watch it tonight.

[GeorgeZip]

I liked the game alot up until Landsmeet. It takes a huge nose-dive there for me. I've played it twice now and found it equally disappointing. First as a human warrior, then as an elf mage.



This last time I presented evidence, Loghain brings in Anora, and the Landsmeet is split and fighting ensues. I reload because I was only able to produce half the evidence before Loghain brings Anora in. This time I just changed the order of the evidence I present and I get all but one to support me and Loghain gives up peacefully, even though I didn't have the chance to produce all the evidence. What's up with that?



Then there's Allister. Asside from being annoying, why does he insist I have to stay and help him be King? And my options are "forget it", "i'll think about it", "you can convince me" (puke). So I support him for King and he talks to me afterward and gives me a -12 disapproval. It's enough to have him executed next game even though I wouldn't normally do that.



And the final battle. Killing the generals isn't that hard, its keeping your characters from running 200 yards in seperate directions. It's set up highlight the flaws in the combat system. Cast an inferno over a pack of enemy archers and watch your elf allies run in the center of it and fry. The map and terrain is much less interesting than say the ice cathedral where the urn is located. Kind of a weak look for the end battle.



And the arch-demon is not too impressive. The grenlock emmisaries that show up are more dangerous.



And finally the epilogue. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but my romance with Lily stagnated and nothing happened. She was at 100 approval for a long time, made me break off with Morrigan, even though I hadn't done anything with her. The Orlais lady never showed up. Shady Slim the thief guy wasn't in Denerim either, so I have no clue what I did. So the epilogue didn't even mention Lily. She told me she was going to work at the Urn in a few months. My dialogue options for her were "about us" then "this isn't working" or "you're the best thing to happen to me". I chose the second but nothing ever happens.



The game was at about 90 approval to me before Landsmeet. After that it gets a -30 hit.

[SnakeStrike8]

Hmmm... Interesting points I see here.

But I have little to contribute, so I shall say nothing more.

[Realmzmaster]

Every main plot is relatively simple in all CPRGs. Why do the subplots seem contrived? It is because they are? The whole game is contrived. It is the subplots that place the meat on the bone and give the charcter something to do until the big finish. Would you rather go to the Tower and walk up to the first enchanter and say can you help us? And Irving says, Why we will be happy to help you. Quest completed! Everybody would be complaining about the lack of story. How underwhelming. Let's face it crap happens everywhere and sometime at the same time.

[pitlord_special]

After all that work building up an army and donating my loots to their cause I was hoping for one or two strategic encounters leading up to the last battle. Like, for example, you take the field against the darkspawn army backed up by the troops you recruited and have to wreck their base while guarding your own (kind of like a little game of DoTA if you've ever played that). You win but end up learning that it was a feint and the enemy moved on Denerim while you were having your battle and have to go back to the city for the final fight like it is now.



I would find something like that more of a plausible scenario than the "oh, we didn't pay attention at all to what the darkspawn were doing and thought they just might come knocking on Eamon's door again, and we were wrong, guess we better haul ass back to the city" result that happened in the game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GeorgeZip wrote...
Then there's Allister. Asside from being annoying, why does he insist I have to stay and help him be King? And my options are "forget it", "i'll think about it", "you can convince me" (puke).

I'm not following you here. You got 3 completley different and sensible options, what are you complainign about?

[KariTR]

In retrospect, I would have liked to have seen the battle at Ostagar happen later in the game. On my first playthrough I had no attachment to the characters (never having read the books) and feeling a compelling urgency to get the job(s) done, saved reading all the lore for later games. However, once I understood the story more, subsequent playthroughs/Loghain's betrayal were convincing.

I found it interesting to see how much sympathy Loghain garners from gamers who have read the DA books and as they arrived in my christmas box maybe I will have sympathy enough to spare him one day.

A simple story told well is far more than a complex one told badly, but DA's real charm isnt in the story per se but in the relationships between your hero and the companions. Ive played completely 3 times now with different party set-ups and each playthrough has offered something different than the last. Maybe you just havent found the right mix of companions that best suits you?

[AtreiyaN7]

Regarding Loghain's motivations/betrayal, I think the prequel books would provide you with some enlightenment. I'm sure it's not TOO spoilerish to reveal that Flemeth (heh) says in The Stolen Throne that Loghain would betray Maric "each time worse than the other." There are some other, ah, issues between Loghain and Maric that you don't know about, but I'm not spoiling that. Suffice it to say, I think that his turning on Cailan might be partially due to what takes place in the books. As for the story being weak, mmm, you may have some points on that, but overall I think it was well done. You could make similar arguments for The Lord of the Rings series as well I imagine (main plot: get the One Ring and destroy it, etc. etc.). I mean, what was most of the end of The Return of the King, heh. As for Riordan...I'm of the opinion that he saw an opportunity and chose to take advantage of it (rightly or wrongly). There were still two Wardens and the army left if he failed, so he took his shot, arguably not the greatest decision ever though given how it turned out - heh.

[EJon]

tmp7704 wrote...

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O. In LoTR the subplots all have to do with the evil going on in Mordor. In DA:O, what do the werewolves, or mages being attacked by blood mages, or political problems in Orzammar have to do with the Blight? Absolutely nothing. 

[KariTR]

EJon wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O. In LoTR the subplots all have to do with the evil going on in Mordor. In DA:O, what do the werewolves, or mages being attacked by blood mages, or political problems in Orzammar have to do with the Blight? Absolutely nothing. 

True, but then if Orzammar, the Circle and the Dalish didnt have their own problems they would already be fighting the Blight with you, you wouldnt need to go wave the treaties at them.

[MassEffect762]

If bioware had added more to Loghain trying to stop you personally through plot actions/story(more so) that disconnect between the subplots and story might have been less noticeable.

I could easily see Ser Cauthren leading elite troops to make your life miserable.

Or Loghain capturing your love interest and forceing your hand in an act of desperation.

So many possibilitys, sadly none that really caught my attention.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 02 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[th3warr1or]

tmp7704 wrote...

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

edit: Incidentally, just because the archdemon doesn't bother to parley with you does not make it "mindless". There's multiple references in the game to the fact he's basically the whole mind for the darkspawn horde. He can also communicate and does so speaking to the darkspawn, it's simply his language isn't something your character or anyone but most senior Wardens can understand.

As far as my Human Noble is concerned, F_ck the archdemon, Howe is the real threat.  After all, Howe wants me dead and killed my family. Archdemon just wants everybody dead. INCLUDING Howe. From my point of view, Archdemon is my friend, since I'm more than willing to sacrifice my own life to end Howe's pathetic one.

I don't see how everyone is going all "Ohh BioWare's story telling is amazing".. cause it's not. It's decent, but I've seen better.

[th3warr1or]

I think the best part of the story was the Urn Of Sacred Ashes part. That was the only part in the game I actually enjoyed.

[th3warr1or]

I think the best part of the story was the Urn Of Sacred Ashes part. That was the only part in the game I actually enjoyed.

[EJon]

th3warr1or wrote...

I think the best part of the story was the Urn Of Sacred Ashes part. That was the only part in the game I actually enjoyed.

That was actually my favorite quest. The Mage one however, don't even get me started on that one...

[ShadowAldrius]

Well the blood mages have plenty to do with Loghain. Who is more the game's antagonist than the Archdemon. The Archdemon is simply a force of nature that must be dealt with, and that results in other issues and problems through out the world. It's not supposed to be anything more than that, I don't feel. Everything that happens as a result of the Archdemon and it's blight. All the stuff involving Flemeth, Morrigan, Loghain, Alistair, the politics of Fereldan, that's the game's plot. The antagonist, or the lack thereof is inconsequential.

[Derengard]

th3warr1or wrote...

I think the best part of the story was the Urn Of Sacred Ashes part. That was the only part in the game I actually enjoyed.

I think this whole plot-point is rather B-movie-ish (unless you have Spielberg to direct it) and all in all, it's just another large dungeon. I completed that quest when I still expected the quests would consist of more than large dungeons and consequently wasn't very impressed. It's a relatively good dungeon however, that is true.

On the point of the story quality: I think it's solid (although I'm not even through because of the dreariness of said dungeons) and the dialogs are interesting. Most of the story is found in the comprehensive lore, I would say, and this is about equally important as the main story.

[SleelofWpg]

EJon wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O. In LoTR the subplots all have to do with the evil going on in Mordor. In DA:O, what do the werewolves, or mages being attacked by blood mages, or political problems in Orzammar have to do with the Blight? Absolutely nothing. 

  Ya, and the mages returning from the debacle of Ostagar, and using the subsequent turmoil to rid themselves of the Templars is totally bogus, as no one has ever used internal turmoil to enact their plots. Nor is is sensible to have a unitted Orzammar a related topic, as nations in the grip of civil war are always willing to put that aside to fight united for a different nation, treaty or no.

  You are such a professional writer, why don't you have a job writing for Bioware? Or anywhere.


Sleel