60 réponses à ce sujet

[GeorgeZip]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GeorgeZip wrote...
Then there's Allister. Asside from being annoying, why does he insist I have to stay and help him be King? And my options are "forget it", "i'll think about it", "you can convince me" (puke).

I'm not following you here. You got 3 completley different and sensible options, what are you complainign about?

I guess the idea that Allister would expect me to spend my life in the castle with him as his, advisor?  wingman? "queen"?  who knows.  It's a bit much.  It would make sense if there was some romance going on, but I don't think there was or I didn't intend there to be.  That was just the final straw in dealing with him.  I do appreciate the complexity of his character, but being forced to deal with him I didn't like.  Imagine being forced to bargain with Anomen in BG2 on how best to rescue Imoen, but make him more pompous and needy.

Some dialogue options I would have liked would be:
"Some things we have to do on our own"
or "I wouldn't have supported you for King if I thought you couldn't handle it" 
or "Grow up, you're Marric's son and your people need you!"
or "Isn't that a little selfish, we all have our own paths to follow."

[tmp7704]

EJon wrote...

The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O.

But it doesn't change the basic premise it is a very simple story with sub-plots. Which was the complaint of OP, not that these subplots are related or not.

Furthermore a lot of LotR story and its subplots is related to Saruman, a relatively minor villain while the "real" bad guy basically sits in his tower through the whole story and the interaction we get with him is minimal. All you really get to see is the faceless armies he throws at the heroes and an occasional scary vision.

[The Capital Gaultier]

EJon wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

craze9 wrote...

This is a very simple story, with few surprises. The reason the game is long and relatively complex is that there are extensive subplots

So is the Lord of the Rings when you look at it the same way. Pair of small dudes carry a magic ring to a big mountain while there's extensive subplots along their way.

The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O. In LoTR the subplots all have to do with the evil going on in Mordor. In DA:O, what do the werewolves, or mages being attacked by blood mages, or political problems in Orzammar have to do with the Blight? Absolutely nothing. 

The subplots are only tied in a forced manner.  Saruman and Sauron are for all intents and purposes separate evils.  The fact that Sauron influenced Saruman so strongly always comes across as force majeure, even if you've read the Silmarillion.

[AmstradHero]

GeorgeZip wrote...
Some dialogue options I would have liked would be:
"Some things we have to do on our own"
or "I wouldn't have supported you for King if I thought you couldn't handle it" 
or "Grow up, you're Marric's son and your people need you!"
or "Isn't that a little selfish, we all have our own paths to follow."

AKA "Forget it."

No, we don't get to say exactly what we want to say.  But that's because the writers can't put in every single option that players might want.

But we can say "Forget it" as a character while we're thinking those reasons as a player.  Would I have liked some more dialogue options at times? Yes.  But there wasn't a point I reached where there was every a line that didn't have the spirit of what I wanted my character to say.

[thegreateski]

All stories are small and easily summarized.



The good ones anyway.

[Sidney]

EJon wrote...
The "subplots" in LoTR aren't unrelated like in DA:O. In LoTR the subplots all have to do with the evil going on in Mordor. In DA:O, what do the werewolves, or mages being attacked by blood mages, or political problems in Orzammar have to do with the Blight? Absolutely nothing. 

What does Rohan, Moria, Tom Bombadil, Galadriel etc have to do with the main plot in LoTOR? Heck, most of the book doesn't deal with the main plot which is two hobbits walking about Middle Earth to a big mountain. In the end Rohan, Army of the Dead for example, are exactly the same problem as the "Gathering the Armies" quest - solving problem X to gain allies for the final battle.

Plus, the world exists outside of the Blight. The Blight interfers with the normal operation of the world and that is what you get to experience - the challenge of making the Blight the only thing that matters. Think it is silly? Ponder the experience of 1930's Europe where the western democracies ignored a gathering storm because of internal problems of their own and a lack of certainity that the threat they were dealing with was a "big" enough threat to stop the normal operation of the world.

[Realmzmaster]

Posters have wondered why Loghain does not send out parties to harass you PC and companions. Maybe because he is fighting a civil war and really cannot spare the troops to chase after two grey wardens and their rag tag companions who do not pose much of a threat until they start securing army allies. Even then the allies will only fight against the Blight. So the army you amass does not threaten Loghain.

As the game progresses you become more of a threat, but until you save Eamon from death you have no real poltical power. Eamon gives you the way in to present any evidence you can collect to the Landsmeet. He also provides a poltical and physical shield for your PC and companions.

The problem with the mage tower is directly related to the Battle at Ostagar. Uldred returned to the Tower to start his coup in full knowledege that Loghain would be in control.

Also note that Loghain has sent his messanger to the dwarven kingdom to enlist their aid. Only you and your companions are allowed in because of the ancient treaties. The fact that the dwarven kingdom is in an uprorar is nothing new. Poltical assassinations are a way of life. The darkspawn a constant threat. So you have to solve these problems to get their help.

Why would the Dalish send you an army? You expect them to aid you when werewolves are decimating their clan? So we send you an army and everything they are supposed to protect from the Blight is dead when they get back.

Why would the werewolves help you? What are going to tell them, "the darkspawn are coming". They are already cursed. The darkspawn become another food source or the darkspawn chase the other races into the forest. (oh my Good Eats!). They can pass on the curse to other races, building their own army.

Your PC does all these little sub plots that do tie into the main plot to gather allies. First you scratch my back then I will scratch yours.

What would be interesting is that the darkspawn overrun different cities if you take to long securing aid or if you try to build too big of an army. That would give a sense of urgency to the mission. But most of us would complain about an arbutriary deadline and the inability to complete a great deal of the quest.

[SeanMurphy2]

I have mixed feelings about it.

I think Bioware felt that the five mid game areas would be substantial and interesting enough that people would enjoy exploring them. Ferelden would feel like a living world with several fleshed out communties.

But it does shift the focus away from Loghain for most of the game. After Ostager I would have liked more interaction with Cauthrien and Loghain. I think it would have made the main storyline stronger.

Though DA:O is a huge game that was in development for a long time. They may have had to cut content to get it finished. Otherwise it becomes like Duke Nukem Forever where the devs are chasing perfection and never get it finished.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 03 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[Archonsg]

To the poster who has trouble at the landsmeet trying to present his case, here's a little funny thing that luck had it that I percieved both Elina and Anora with suspect right from the start and looked at her "gift" of locating evidence of Howe's or Loghain's wrong doing in the Alienage as a possible red herring. Thus when I finally presented my argument against Loghain, with the choices that;
This is a REAL blight versus Loghain's insistence that it isn't, that Loghain condones the torture of NOBLES via Howe's actions (after all, nobles could not really care less about the peasants under them but if Loghain would torture a noble....which of them is really safe from his insanity) and Loghain's interference with the Chantry and use of a bloodmage for his own ends. The sales of elves into slavery seems pale in comparison in the greater scheme of things as far as the nobles are concerned and because I thought that this was the case, I choose not to use the "evidence" that Anora had so "kindly" given. Needless to say, I won by a landslide.

As for the Story itself. I was surprised that Bioware did not pull a KOTOR or Jade Empires and put in a plot twist that would had us reeling, but I wasn't dissapointed either. For one thing, each and every companion do have enough variations and yes, even Alistair that depending on what you do and whom you have with you for the majority of the game do feel like different people in different playthroughs. Then again, I do try to play differently with different choices most of the time, making the exception for Lelianna.

To me, the real mark of a good story is how from start to the end, does it make you feel about the world you just traveled, lived, fought and in some cases , died in. If you felt anything other then "meh...." then I think the story was a good one. In my case, on my first play through, when I learned that Lelianna was so heart broken and finally losing her hold on sanity, chose suicide (my interpretation) to rejoin the one she truly loved, my PC, I had tears in my eyes. That if anything meant that the story in which the companions you have with you are a part of, was good and worked its magic.

Modifié par Archonsg, 03 janvier 2010 - 05:52 .

[Archonsg]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Though DA:O is a huge game that was in development for a long time. They may have had to cut content to get it finished. Otherwise it becomes like Duke Nukem Forever where the devs are chasing perfection and never get it finished.

I am pretty sure they did.
Messing around with the toolkit, I found some references to things that weren't in the game and "quest items" that did not make it into the game. 

[bas273]

A few more plot twists would've been nice although the dark ritual, Riordan's death and the fact that you die if you kill the Archdemon really surprised me.

So IMO Dragon Age has a great story. If you compare it to other RPG's (Oblivion, Two Worlds, The Witcher) Bioware has done an excellent job.

The Landsmeet was over too quickly but the duel with Loghain was awesome.

Lots of people who are complaining about the story, companions (Alistair who is so whiny) etc. should play the game more often. Yes, Alistair is a bit whiny but not if you harden him and raise his approval. And if you actually listen to his dialogues, you'll see that he has to endure a lot and you will even respect him. He still makes jokes and battles the Darkspawn so he's definitely not 'weak'.

Same for the other companions. The overall story gets much better and immersive if you raise all their approvals to 90+ and listen to all the dialogues.

If you make the ultimate sacrifice, then prepare for an emotional ending speech.

[Lord Phoebus]

I don't think Bioware has ever been the best at writing a story. I'd say their best was BG II, but they've been sort of middle of the road otherwise. They manage a competent story and generally offer a slick presentation of it, but nothing they write examines the human condition (like Obsidian/Black Isle) or really delves into politics and social issues (E.g. the Witcher), they just sort of skim the surface.



Imho, the problem with Bioware as of late it that they've been playing it too safe. They're not really trying anything new, just delivering the old stuff with shiny new packaging. The story was adequate, but nothing really great. They had a few interesting points but they didn't do anything with it. Take Orzammar for example, here you have a ruthless but progressive candidate (Bhelen) and an honorable conservative candidate (Harrowmont) fighting for control of the city, which could have been awesome if they explored the motivations of both of them and explored the questions of: Was the dwarven political system was worth saving? Are the policies or the man behind them more important? Can a tyranny serve a population better than an oligarchy? But they never really explore it, you fight in an arena for one and rescue a lord for another and then the missions become the same. By talking to some of the NPCs you can learn the policies of the two and the end game discusses the legacy of the candidates, but it's never really probed in the game itself.



I can't help but wonder whether voice acting ruined the plot of this game. When you don't have to pay voice actors you can have a lot more dialogue and really flesh out the character's personalities and motivations.

[Grommash94]

Yes, the story was not surprising. Except for a few points anyway. But tbh, MOST fantasy is not really about twists and turns and 'OMGWTF' moments. Its direct, its simple, but its intricate all the same.

[Sable Phoenix]

I agree that the story was pretty straightforward and actually the weakest part of Dragon Age.



Doesn't really matter though. Dragon Age's strength is its characters, and how very strong it is.

[koshiee]

co-sign.

story sucked big time. I don't know who in Bioware is responsible but the story was poorly plotted and overall not engaging or interesting. It's the kind of story I would expect from an FPS.

[Necroscope84]

  Sorry, gotta disagree with you, every storyline is part of the main story line.  It's no different than any novel no matter how good or bad, all fantasy books like the Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, and many more are told just like this story is.  There's a main story - ie defeating the Archdemon and the blight and on the way to get to the end of that story the heroes encounter other people, make friends along the way, help them out and do a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with the main story - or so it seems but it has Everything to do with the main story.  If you didn't need an army to destroy the blight you wouldn't have met Oghran who wanted to find his lost wife who one of the dwarven kings to be wanted you to find.  So therefore if there wasnt the main story then you wouldn't have needed to go there and do any of that so it's all linked.  Stories are made up of small unrelated and relates small linking tales that come together to form a whole.

  In this Dragon Age excelled.  I can't think of the last game that had such a great storyline. Not even Baldur's gate I and II.  I loved those games but this game blew them away.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think the plot of many games can be briefly summarised. But sometimes in Bioware games there is more mystery about the villain's plans and what is really going on.


I think Alistair being heir was meant to be a big revelation in the storyline. But maybe there could have been more mystery and buildup to it. Like Zevran is hired to kill Alistair, so for a while you could be left pondering why Loghain is so interested in killing Alistair.

I thought the broodmother was interesting. And could be a good revelation. If there was more focus and buildup about what is happening deep in the darkspawn lair and what do they do with their prisoners.

Also I think Loghain could have had a different role. As the game goes on, you hear how Loghain has done more and more horrible things. As though the story structure requires a hateable villain.

I would rather Loghain be really hated at the beginning. But then as the game goes on, you gradually see things from his perspective and learn more about his history and of the brutal Orlesian occupation. And also realise that sometimes you need to do ruthless things. (As you yourself have done throughout the game)

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[fistandantilius8]

Well this is aimed at the OP.



This isn't a Mystery/Fantasy game and never claimed to be.



Its a Dark Fantasy game. As proclaimed by the DEVS. In my opinion, the story of this game (not just the main plot, everything) was excellent in that regards. It delivered exactly what it claimed it was. Dark Fantasy.

[Sabriana]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

<snip>

Also I think Loghain could have had a different role. As the game goes on, you hear how Loghain has done more and more horrible things. As though the story structure requires a hateable villain.

I would rather Loghain be really hated at the beginning. But then as the game goes on, you gradually see things from his perspective and learn more about his history and of the brutal Orlesian occupation. And also realise that sometimes you need to do ruthless things. (As you yourself have done throughout the game)

That is a most excellent thought. That would enhance the game on so many levels, and lift the let-down of the Landsmeet in many ways.

True, the villain being bad and becoming more and more paranoid/schizoid/psychotic is so very tired out in many RPG's nowadays.
They should've just looked at Irenicus. Now that was a villain with many layers, in my opinion.

[stillnotking]

The reason Loghain betrayed Cailan was explained very clearly in-game: Loghain believed (possibly accurately) that Cailan was opening the door to an Orlesian reconquest by recklessly inviting them into Ferelden to help against the Blight. Loghain did not believe that it was a "real" Blight anyway.

It actually makes perfect sense, because the Grey Wardens had been distrusted in Ferelden for a long time (due to Warden Commander Sophia's attempt to overthrow the King of Ferelden), and virtually all the Grey Wardens at the start of the game are in Anderfels and Orlais. You can see how a hardcore Fereldan patriot like Loghain would be very unhappy with Cailan's fascination with this weird foreign order.

If anything, the respect the character gets as a Grey Warden is what doesn't make much sense. But that's partially attributable to people waking up after the destruction of Lothering and the West Hills. It's also explained in-game (if you talk to Loghain after recruiting him) that he, too, realized he had to take the Blight seriously after that, but by then it was too late for Cailan and Duncan, of course.

As for the story being weak, well, it's no weaker than... I dunno, Star Wars, for example. A story can be conceptually simple but still powerful if it taps into some essential archetypes. I actually think they did a fantastic job of creating a believable world. The only "weakness" I would identify is that they didn't do enough to flesh out/resolve the various origin stories, rather than tying them together into one generic series of events starting with Ostagard. For example, characters should react very differently to a Dwarf Commoner than to a Human Noble. It's especially weird because you basically never see elves or dwarves in human communities except as slum dwellers or traveling merchants; Ferelden obviously isn't an integrated society! And yet the Landsmeet is waiting with bated breath to hear the opinion of an elf? Even if the elf is a Grey Warden, it doesn't make much sense.

Overall, though, I was very happy with the story and the setting, and I hope they develop it further in subsequent games.

[fistandantilius8]

stillnotking wrote...

The reason Loghain betrayed Cailan was explained very clearly in-game: Loghain believed (possibly accurately) that Cailan was opening the door to an Orlesian reconquest by recklessly inviting them into Ferelden to help against the Blight. Loghain did not believe that it was a "real" Blight anyway.
It actually makes perfect sense, because the Grey Wardens had been distrusted in Ferelden for a long time (due to Warden Commander Sophia's attempt to overthrow the King of Ferelden), and virtually all the Grey Wardens at the start of the game are in Anderfels and Orlais. You can see how a hardcore Fereldan patriot like Loghain would be very unhappy with Cailan's fascination with this weird foreign order.
If anything, the respect the character gets as a Grey Warden is what doesn't make much sense. But that's partially attributable to people waking up after the destruction of Lothering and the West Hills. It's also explained in-game (if you talk to Loghain after recruiting him) that he, too, realized he had to take the Blight seriously after that, but by then it was too late for Cailan and Duncan, of course.
As for the story being weak, well, it's no weaker than... I dunno, Star Wars, for example. A story can be conceptually simple but still powerful if it taps into some essential archetypes. I actually think they did a fantastic job of creating a believable world. The only "weakness" I would identify is that they didn't do enough to flesh out/resolve the various origin stories, rather than tying them together into one generic series of events starting with Ostagard. For example, characters should react very differently to a Dwarf Commoner than to a Human Noble. It's especially weird because you basically never see elves or dwarves in human communities except as slum dwellers or traveling merchants; Ferelden obviously isn't an integrated society! And yet the Landsmeet is waiting with bated breath to hear the opinion of an elf? Even if the elf is a Grey Warden, it doesn't make much sense.
Overall, though, I was very happy with the story and the setting, and I hope they develop it further in subsequent games.

Yea. That whole character recognizing by the AI is pretty weak. And Immersion breaking as well. There should be a VAST difference in talking to people playing as the different races. But tis hardly noticeable, at all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humbug. Irenicus is no more layered than Loghina.



If anytihng, Loghain is more sympathetic than Irenicus.

Irenicus was doing everything out of vengance.

[knarayan]

There are supposed to be only two stories in the world

1. A person goes on a journey

2. A stranger comes to town

Everything else is a variation thereof.







Sorry. Couldn't resist.



However, you have strong characters and solid writing - occassionally rising to brilliant writing in the party banter sections.

And at no point in the game do you feel like - "This is crap. I'm going to stop playing it" - or "I'll never play this game again".

Yes, the Landsmeet was a huge letdown and the Archdemon was a wuss, once you figured it out, but there were enough good things in there to make the whole thing a very enjoyable underatking.

This is from a guy who is now in his 6th playthrough - thats a 450 hour investment

[ash the rpgamer]

i thought the story was excellent and very well told, the best ive seen in this type of game, particularly with the excellent cutscenes and the interaction with companions.

the story branches out into other sub-plots because otherwise the game would be short.



take LOTR for example, thats got a ton of subplots in the film, if it didn't have them it would simply be two hobbits walking to a mountain, in fact the majority of time seems to focus on the other characters.

however if you've read the book you'd know that the film misses out even more subplots and theres a hell of alot missing from the film.



if DAO was simply pure darkspawn/loghain slaying it would be boring. also why would loghain send his troops after 2 grey wardens who have very little power and on the face of things are no threat? he wouldn't.

i enjoyed my 1st playthrough alot and much of the game has some very interesting quests, who doesn't like the talking oak tree? lol

the story itself may be your classic story, but every good story has a beginning,middle and end. i thought that it was told perfectly.



perhaps you had very little hate/desire to kill the archdemon but after all its a dragon it cannot talk english, i'd have been alot more disappointed if Loghain was the big bad boss at the end rather than a dragon, even if loghain gave a speech

[Sabriana]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humbug. Irenicus is no more layered than Loghina.

If anytihng, Loghain is more sympathetic than Irenicus.
Irenicus was doing everything out of vengance.

One person's humbug is another person's opinion. I feel differently, and that's that. I can respect your take on things, and I respectfully ask that you do me the same courtesy.