216 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sorry hhh89... my posts tend to get away with me. I originally responded to the 'letter' thing saying, my LI's didn't dump my warden either and then I kinda segued off into more of a response toward the OP after that paragraph. I wasn't disagreeing with you or anything.

That's fine. I only wanted to know if the post was directed to me. No need to apologize.

[TheRealJayDee]

Well, seriously, if Bioware gave me a protagonist who could end his respective story/game more broken than my Hawke I'ld be really impressed. He was emotionally crippled, borderline insane and had achieved nothing he had any interest in.

I just wish I'd had more fun playing him on his way from a pretty bad situation to complete and utter misery...

[Tootles FTW]

David Gaider wrote...

shlenderman wrote...
The thing with the op was, I guess, that her female elf got dumped a little too hard.

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there. Not that such endings should ever be possible, but that they're required. That their mere existence means the entire game has transformed into a love story where everything else is secondary. I certainly understand why someone might want that, but that's simply never going to be the case-- it wasn't 13 years ago when I started writing game romances, and isn't now.. Will this cause some folks to thrash around and despair about how we're "getting it wrong" and no doubt completely misunderstanding what makes our stories awesome? Probably. And yet.

Oooh, Mr Shadowbreath.    Come to think of it, that was probably the "swooniest" (totally a word) romance that Bioware has ever had...

For the OP, I'm sorry that your playthrough didn't wield the results you wanted.  I was lucky enough to roll a female Cousland & be able to marry Alistair in my first playthrough, but I can imagine the frustration to not only get iced out of that romance as a dwarf/elf/mage, but to also then find out that the option is attainable...just not to you.  I hate being blocked out of content for my choices, but the fact remains that I don't hate it because it doesn't make sense - Alistair's reasoning is legit, as infuriating as it may be, and these are the subtle differences that create an honest RP experience within the context of that world.

[ElitePinecone]

David Gaider wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
But you have said multiple times that you like to do new things and don't like to retread old ground.  A rainbows and butterflies ending does qualify as something different for you.  Why completely write that off as a possibility?

I've never dove head-first into a barrel of razor blades either, but I doubt I'll ever try that just for the sheer novelty factor.

Okay, this did make me laugh uproariously. 

[Maria Caliban]

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

shlenderman wrote...

Some of the issues could be reflected on the audience who is mostly in their teens, so cheesie movies and romance subplats gets a bit too heave emphasis.

Going to disagree. It's the older audience who thinks 'settle down and start a family' is a great way to end a story. Teenagers are more apt to think spending the rest of your life fighting in some unknown but likely unwinnable adventure is cool.

krul2k wrote...

you can romance in kotor?

Yes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:35 .

[thats1evildude]

I guess it comes down to what constitutes a "happy ending." For me, if the hero defeats the villain and doesn't die or go insane, that's a pretty happy ending.

For me, the Warden had a happy ending, having survived to the end of the story and become a hero. I don't fantasize that everything was cherry and roses for him afterwards.

Hawke's ending was less happy, but it wasn't a downer either. He had to leave the city, but he beat the templars and saved Kirkwall.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[sylvanaerie]

I personally like the mistress ending for my city elf and Surana (No way am I putting Anora on the throne alone considering what happens to the elves in the Alienage on those two). My dalish keeps her lover, Alistair a GW because the Grey Wardens are her family now, and never really felt a kinship with the elves in the alienage.

My HNF marries Alistair and becomes queen, my HNM married Anora, but kept Leliana as his mistress.

I view the mistress thing as similar to Paul/Irulan/Chani thing (hope I spelled the names right).

Even for the warden who dies, I enjoyed it.  They get a nice send off and you get to see in the end where everyone went and how their lives were all touched by knowing you.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[The Elder King]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Yes.

Neither is romancing Morrigan.
Though I don't think that the DR is an happy ending regardless the Origin, sex and LI you choose, but that's my opinion.

[Althix]

i just don't understand you people, why are you playing games such da, me? i mean - except for ME2, there is actually evil to slay and enemies to kill. not romances to engage.
why? why it is sooooooooooooo important?

Modifié par secretsandlies, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[Iakus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Yes.

This.

That's one of the great things about DAO, the sheer variety of endings.  You can have your happy, sad, tragic, or bittersweet endings based on your choices.  You are not forced down a particular path.  You can build your own ending.  You can Earn Your Happy Ending

[Chaos Lord Malek]

The best games ends badly.

Planescape: Torment - cluster**** at the end.

Tiberian Sun Nod Ending - one of the best ever.

Witcher ending (leaving Grandmaster to his fate)

Starcraft: Brood War and Warcraft 3:The Frozen Throne - both end with Ascension

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, despite having a *good ending* has one of the best and most chilling evil endings ever made.


You need to have something unique at the end, some melancholy and sadness, because just downright happy ending isn't modern anymore. You know what is said about characters - "Nobody remembers the good guys", and the same goes for endings.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Not if your goal is to marry the king of Ferelden, that's true. Yet there are people who honestly believe they are being punished because they chose not to be human or a noble and yet are not given all the same opportunities that a human noble might have. There are consequences to that decision they don't like (ie. which don't lead to the happily-ever-after with Alistair), and thus they are wrong.

Which I'm fine with. I can't tell them what should be important to their own game, but I'll never consider that an actual problem.

[Wulfram]

It can be kind of annoying when the writers decide that your romance is the one where they want to get all realistic.

Though that doesn't really apply if it grows out of your own actions. In the King Alistair case I'd just say you should've listened to your boyfriend and kept Anora as Queen.

[StarcloudSWG]

David Gaider wrote...

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there. Not that such endings should ever be possible, but that they're required. That their mere existence means the entire game has transformed into a love story where everything else is secondary. I certainly understand why someone might want that, but that's simply never going to be the case-- it wasn't 13 years ago when I started writing game romances, and isn't now.. Will this cause some folks to thrash around and despair about how we're "getting it wrong" and no doubt completely misunderstanding what makes our stories awesome? Probably. And yet.

For the other people reading this thread, it would help if you realized this game series isn't a stand-alone fantasy novel. It's not a series where the giant 'reset' button is pushed. It's not a series where anyone gets to live 'happily ever after.'

It is a milieu story. A glimpse into the ongoing history of a fantasy world that's based in the psychology, society, and culture of fictional races. It's a look at the 'real life' of fictional characters. Since life doesn't provide happily ever after endings with the hero riding triumphantly into the sunset into some kind of eternal stasis, neither will Dragon Age.

That's not to say that there can't be happy endings, but they won't be happily ever after endings. The best you can hope for is that the hero and his/her love interest/wife/husband stay in love and live together for the rest of their lives.

But it's not guaranteed.

On the game design/story design perspective, however... taking the love interest away from the player during the game had better indicate a major cathartic payoff afterwards. It doesn't have to be related, but it has to be something that the player can feel good about or satisfied with, to offset the sometimes very real emotional downer of losing a character to which the player has become attached.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Chaos Lord Malek: Enough of your lies chaos scum - lest the Emperor's holy wroth emboldens me to happily end you with my hammer betwixt your eye-holes.

I don't mind "bad endings" no matter how trendy and grimdark edgy emo I find them... but as I find playing a good guy more compelling - I do want my "good" endings. Though they don't have to be filled with unicorns and butterflies.

Personally - I think Bioware has the model wrong.

- Good guys should have all the friends - but be tortured constantly throughout the game.

- Bad guys should be neraly abandoned by anyone they can't intimidate... but have personal power and wealth.

Of course this is oversimplification.

[Ridwan]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

Eh what? DA: Origins had a perfect happy ending as a human noble. Killed the guy who wasted your family, had the option to be king or just continue to be a grey warden and when I asked Leliana "Does the hero get the girl" she said yes. Everyone else got their own personal demons out of the way and you defeated the Archdemon. Dude, that is a happy ending. I don't see what's wrong with it.

[StarcloudSWG]

Medhia: Extreme oversimplification. There are 'bad guys' in real life who are abandoned by anyone they can't intimidate, and have NO personal power or wealth.

There are 'good guys' in real life who have all the friends, and wealth, and power, and have few friends.

There is not and should not be any simplistic, cartoonish 'formula' for characters like the one you propose. The reason that Hawke has this wealth and power is because Hawke pursued those goals and was both lucky and skilled enough to get them. Whether Hawke has friends or not is up to the player, and is a separate matter. But note that charismatic, dynamic people like Hawke tend to gather friends and followers regardless of their personal attitude towards said people.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[Josielyn]

One thing that Bioware has done well is making us FEEL strongly enough about events, characters, societies, to come back to these forums, reply the same game, and beg for another. Without the contrast of the sad or hateful times, would we have sufficient perspective to revel in the good times or would we be constantly looking for the next bigger experience to top it, and end up disappointed?

[FINE HERE]

I liked the variation of endings in DA:O.
There were 'happy' endings: No warden dies, Archdemon destroyed, all (but one) LI would stay with you. City elf- Your people have a representative in the court, Dalish elf- Your people have a land of their own. Dwarves- Become paragons.
There were 'sad' endings: Your warden, or Alistair/Loghain die to kill Archdemon. LI left you or you left them. You killed every possible companion you were allowed to and ended the game alone.

In DA2, however, the endings were... the same? I don't even remember any major changes between the ending for my FHawke romanced Anders but supported Templars rogue or my FHawke romanced Fenris but supported Mages mage. The only change I saw was who Hawke disappeared off into the sunset with.

[Medhia Nox]

@StarcloudSWG: Well - I'm glad we agree that it was an oversimplification... since I said that.

But - they've never done it before. Bioware (and all game companies) have a tendency to pander to their audience no matter which side of the fence the gamer plays on.

And sorry - but the charismatic villain has such an extremely poor showing in reality. Most truly vile criminals are awkward loners. I am open to being proven wrong by this however - but I would require more than "internet fact" since it's a pitiful resource.

Morally bankrupt people don't ever have real friends.. they have sycophants, parasites and the occasional brutish loyalist.

It WOULD be very compelling if Bioware added some of these types of characters for the more reprehensible main character.

And truly "good" people - they often sacrifice quite a lot in the name of being good. I'm not talking about people who just "don't do bad" - they're not good people - they're apathetic filler and make up the vast swath of NPC quest givers as well as real people.

A genuinely "good" person has almost always drawn to him or her a large pool of admirers and friends. Some of which are no better than a bad man's group - also a compelling concept... I'd love a betrayer NPC to really rile up the player base. I'd have him or her be the most interesting best friend/romance in the game.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Certainly, if your definition of 'good' is limited to 'completely selfless', there are NO good people living in the world.

Well, maybe the Dalai Lama.

But 'truly good' people by that definition are rare. One in millions. One in tens of millions, rare.

As for an example; Mother Theresa. She was respected. Admired. Adored. And by all accounts, had very few friends.

I would rather that Bioware write characters as people, rather than sticking to *any* sort of "formula" about whether wealth and power are in an inverse relationship with friends and admirers.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[alex90c]

I thought DA:O's endings were fine. The only problem each of them have is the death sentence of being a Grey Warden, but ehhh... I just headcanon that it's all rainbows and butterflies and the taint is cured, lol.