216 réponses à ce sujet

[acewings]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

At least you warned us this time, unlike Mass Effect 3. LOL

Modifié par acewings, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[The Night Haunter]

Happy endings for DAO are completely possible. Harden Alistair and you can be his mistress. Zev and Leliana have no complications beyond their quests. Morrigan is the only one where you cant have at least some idea of what goes on in the future seeing as 'beyond the mirror' is completely unknown, and requires dlc to achieve.

DA2 had 1 ending with minor differences depending on choices made, so I'll agree that I'd like more variety than that.

[The Elder King]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Yes.

Neither is romancing Morrigan.

Haven't played Witch Hunt, hrave you?

Which isn't a content present in DAO, and isn't related to the DAO endings (since it happens some years after DAO), but it's a post-game content, right?
DAA, WH, GoA, are post-game content, that happened years after DAO. WH isn't  a DAO ending, is the closure to the Warden's story.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[Ianamus]

I think that the endings for Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were fine in this regard. I don't want a victory that had no losses, no sacrifices and no regrets. But I also do not want a Mass Effect 3 style ending where the protagonist dies, all of your squad mates are stranded and the galaxy is in ruin no matter what choices you made.

There needs to be a balance, and I think that the Dragon Age games have been good with that so far. I hope that Inquisition will offer an ending where the protagonist and their closest friends/loved ones can survive, but that something else must be sacrificed in order to achieve that ending.

Modifié par EJ107, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Direwolf0294]

For me, the problem is when the protagonist gets majorly screwed over in the bittersweet endings. I can stomach the bitterness of the situation if the protagonist gets something sweet in return. DA2 for example had a very depressing ending when you think about it, countless dead and the world about to enter a war, but it didn't feel all that bad because Hawke had survived and was out there somewhere with their lover interest. DA:O and ME3 on the other hand probably had a more positive ending, both bringing an end to a war that had already taken many lives, yet they felt more bitter and depressing because Shepard gets screwed over, as does the Warden in many of the possible endings.

Basically, any victory feels hollow nad depressing if the protagonist is left either dead or with no reward at the end.

[Icinix]

My PC is pretty happy I would say.

I cleaned out its dust filters just recently...

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go.

No ewok parade?! Damn!

Even though it was a little too open ended for my taste, one thing that DA2 had going for it in this regard is that if you are the type who needs a happy ending, you can have that with DA2. It's explicitly stated that Hawke's LI stays with her and very little else. You can imagine anything you want. At this point, there is nothing to contradict any sort of head canon that a player might come up with, unless there are specific mentions in DA3.

I don't know about anyone else, but my Hawke hoofed it back to Ferelden to take Alistair up on his offer, dragging Fenris along. I'm fine thinking that that is how things are, unless stated otherwise in DA3.

[Medhia Nox]

@StarcloudsSWG: Not sure why - that's very common in the real world. Wealth and power often ostracize someone.  In fact - I think that would be another compelling idea.  The more famous/powerful the "Warden" gets... the more his friends and allies feel ostracized.

Actually - economic lines would just be another one of those things I'd use to make allies or ostracize other allies from a PC.

A truly complex system would not have NPCs predisposed to liking the PC no matter what he/she is like.

I'd rather see NPCs come and go - with only the "right fits" being hangers on.

Of course - then the question of developer resources comes into play.

Anyway - I think most interesting people have conviction... and conviction, no matter what it is, often takes on the aspects of a stereotype. People who lack conviction are legion... and they're all boring.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[Nurot]

David Gaider wrote...

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

I am much relieved by reading this. This means I will probably love all the rest of the games in the DA-series as much as the fist two. The best stories are those that makes me feel a lot of different emotions. DA has made me go from hate to happiness to sorrow, back and forth like on a rollercoster. I seldom remember the details of the stories i read/play, but the emotional impact they leave will stay with me. That is why bittersweet stories tend to stay with me the longest. They are the most enjoyable while reading/playing them as well since it is easier for me to get invested in a story that actually makes me feel things.

[JCAP]

M25105 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

Eh what? DA: Origins had a perfect happy ending as a human noble. Killed the guy who wasted your family, had the option to be king or just continue to be a grey warden and when I asked Leliana "Does the hero get the girl" she said yes. Everyone else got their own personal demons out of the way and you defeated the Archdemon. Dude, that is a happy ending. I don't see what's wrong with it.

You slept with Morrigan.

If Morrigan is trustworthy or not I don't know (hell, we are talking about a old god baby). And in DA2 Flemeth... resurrected? (if you killed her in DA:O) (and yes, I know she didn't really resurrected, I just don't know what word to use). And I don't like this one bit!!


Flemeth is a very cool character, but she is going to bite us in the ass (really hard) in one of the next games.

[Ridwan]

JCAP wrote...

M25105 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

Eh what? DA: Origins had a perfect happy ending as a human noble. Killed the guy who wasted your family, had the option to be king or just continue to be a grey warden and when I asked Leliana "Does the hero get the girl" she said yes. Everyone else got their own personal demons out of the way and you defeated the Archdemon. Dude, that is a happy ending. I don't see what's wrong with it.

You slept with Morrigan.

If Morrigan is trustworthy or not I don't know (hell, we are talking about a old god baby). And in DA2 Flemeth... resurrected? (if you killed her in DA:O) (and yes, I know she didn't really resurrected, I just don't know what word to use). And I don't like this one bit!!


Flemeth is a very cool character, but she is going to bite us in the ass (really hard) in one of the next games.

You don't have to sleep with her. Hardened Alistair, put him on the throne with Anora and make Loghain a warden and have him take the killing blow. Perfect.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there. Not that such endings should ever be possible, but that they're required. That their mere existence means the entire game has transformed into a love story where everything else is secondary. I certainly understand why someone might want that, but that's simply never going to be the case-- it wasn't 13 years ago when I started writing game romances, and isn't now.. Will this cause some folks to thrash around and despair about how we're "getting it wrong" and no doubt completely misunderstanding what makes our stories awesome? Probably. And yet.

I think it would be interesting if some future game at least offered a more clear choice in terms of how to approach something like a romance's conclusion. For example, in the context of Origins and the Blight, what if the player was given a choice such that they could go and save the world and kill the Archdemon but it meant the love interest somehow died or they suffered some big loss. Versus somehow giving the whole "Save the World!" plot the middle finger and walking off into the sunset with their love interest...but they only last for a short while since the Blight ends up swallowing them up. Then have the import into the next game react to that choice- if they did the selfish walk off into the sunset choice, they're remembered as an **** villain whereas the PC that ends up sacrificing his love interest/ relationships to win the day is seen as the hero.

I'd just be curious how people would choose in a sort of scenario where they were forced between the player character's personal happiness, however brief it may be versus the greater good of the world at the expense of the player character's happiness. Origins touches on that sort of thing at times but I think it would be interesting if more choices put that conflict between the personal and greater good in perspective.

[JCAP]

 M25105
That's a good alternative, but I wanted to be the one who kill Loghain and the Archdemon :devil::devil:

And besides, Alistair is my bro, and if I let the Loghain join the Grey Wardens, he gets mad, and I get sad, and then he feels bad, and I feel bad, and then we cry, and king can't cry 

[Aleya]

I don't feel that way at all. Someone once compared Bioware games to a punch to the chest, but in a good way. I think that person was right.

I usually appreciate endings where the protagonist dies or ends up miserable far more than rainbows and sunshine type endings. Mind you, it has to be presented well and it has to make sense (hi there, ME3), but usually it does. Even game worlds are imperfect. We're not supposed to end up with a perfect life. Being presented with a fairy tale always just leaves me wondering when the magic will fade. Personal happiness is great of course, but I despise "and they lived happily ever after" endings because they feel fake. They just leave me imagining the moment when disaster catches up with my PC's perfect little life and feeling like I'm abandoning her and the world around her to face whatever comes next. All of which puts me in a fairly unpleasant post-game headspace.

The first time I played DA:O I actually believed Riordan was there specifically to save the day, and that he would die. So, no ritual for me, and one dead city elf. I practically went into shock when I realized Riordan was dead, stared blankly at the screen when it went black, nearly cried during the funeral cutscene, and then actually cried afterwards. And then I promptly decided DA:O was the best game in the history of RPGs and started planning out the next 10 playthroughs. And you know what? I don't think it would've had that effect on me if my little elf had survived. The world would keep turning but my character's part in it was well and truly played. She'd done the best she could and the epilogue slides showed me the result. It was perfect because it was perfectly heartbreaking and I loved it. 

[Tempest_]

I really have no issue with a bitter ending since the Dragon Age world always struck me as a particularly dark and bitter place with glimmers of light here and there.

I thought the ending to Origins was superb.

[Icinix]

Aleya wrote...

I don't feel that way at all. Someone once compared Bioware games to a punch to the chest, but in a good way. I think that person was right.

I usually appreciate endings where the protagonist dies or ends up miserable far more than rainbows and sunshine type endings. Mind you, it has to be presented well and it has to make sense (hi there, ME3), but usually it does. Even game worlds are imperfect. We're not supposed to end up with a perfect life. Being presented with a fairy tale always just leaves me wondering when the magic will fade. Personal happiness is great of course, but I despise "and they lived happily ever after" endings because they feel fake. They just leave me imagining the moment when disaster catches up with my PC's perfect little life and feeling like I'm abandoning her and the world around her to face whatever comes next. All of which puts me in a fairly unpleasant post-game headspace.

The first time I played DA:O I actually believed Riordan was there specifically to save the day, and that he would die. So, no ritual for me, and one dead city elf. I practically went into shock when I realized Riordan was dead, stared blankly at the screen when it went black, nearly cried during the funeral cutscene, and then actually cried afterwards. And then I promptly decided DA:O was the best game in the history of RPGs and started planning out the next 10 playthroughs. And you know what? I don't think it would've had that effect on me if my little elf had survived. The world would keep turning but my character's part in it was well and truly played. She'd done the best she could and the epilogue slides showed me the result. It was perfect because it was perfectly heartbreaking and I loved it. 

Yeppers. DAO ending(s) - were good. They felt balanced based on your character and choices and in all my playthroughs and varying endings - I'm always satisfied. It always feels like just the right amount of good and bad.

[Leanansidhe]

Tootles FTW wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

shlenderman wrote...
The thing with the op was, I guess, that her female elf got dumped a little too hard.

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there. Not that such endings should ever be possible, but that they're required. That their mere existence means the entire game has transformed into a love story where everything else is secondary. I certainly understand why someone might want that, but that's simply never going to be the case-- it wasn't 13 years ago when I started writing game romances, and isn't now.. Will this cause some folks to thrash around and despair about how we're "getting it wrong" and no doubt completely misunderstanding what makes our stories awesome? Probably. And yet.

Oooh, Mr Shadowbreath.    Come to think of it, that was probably the "swooniest" (totally a word) romance that Bioware has ever had...
<snip>

As far as I know, the first romance Mr. Gaider did was Anomen in BG2.  And, I'm probably one of the few women out there who actually liked it.  Depending on how you approached his romance, you could actually get him to change his alignment.  I did it once, and he killed Aerie.  Critted her, so she flew into chunks.  I sat there for about 5 minutes, stunned.  It was revolutionary to me.

As far as the thread subject goes, I don't need personal happiness at the end of a story.  I just want a really good story.  It's the journey for me, not the destination.  That's why I had no problem with either DA2 or ME3.  Yes, DA2 had issues, but the positives more than outweighed the negatives, as far as I was concerned.

Obviously, YMMV.

[Todd23]

At the end of Witch Hunt my warden smiled...

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Not if your goal is to marry the king of Ferelden, that's true. Yet there are people who honestly believe they are being punished because they chose not to be human or a noble and yet are not given all the same opportunities that a human noble might have. There are consequences to that decision they don't like (ie. which don't lead to the happily-ever-after with Alistair), and thus they are wrong.

Which I'm fine with. I can't tell them what should be important to their own game, but I'll never consider that an actual problem.

Negative consequences are fine.  Even ones that don't become clear until much, much later in the game. 

Just as long as the player isn't caught in a double bind where every possible outcome resolves in the protagonist either dead or wishing he/she was dead regardless of choices made.

[xAmilli0n]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series.

*snip*

Glad to hear it.

MisterJB wrote...

*snip*  I still remember how heartbroken I was during my first playthrough when I realized there wasn't going to be any "Happily Ever After". 

And it felt so good.

Sometimes on BSN, I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way.

So OP, happy endings are fine and dandy, but they do not equal good endings.  Story telling first, wish fulfillment second.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 08 novembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[culletron1]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Sometimes on BSN, I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way.

So OP, happy endings are fine and dandy, but they do not equal good endings.  Story telling first, wish fulfillment second.

Don't worry you are definitely not alone.. I totally agree with you

[vanom66]

No , I don't need some forced "everyone lived happily ever after" shoe in for me. wheres the struggle without sacrifice. I'm glad there's some sense of tragedy incorporated in the end that not everything will be perfect. Is far more compelling for me.

[sylvanaerie]

I like that there is a 'realism' to DA's endings. No, you don't get a 'and they all lived happily ever after' epilogue. If your warden is alone (or dead) it's because of choices you made for him/her. In my fanfics, I always end on a note of hope (since I feel hope is even more important than love) and end with something to the effect of "Life is good", because for my protagonist, life IS good, but it's not perfect. There is no 'perfect happiness', not in life certainly. And, thank God, not in Thedas either. I don't think the warden/Hawke's story would have meant as much to me if it all ended with everyone happy and together for always and always and rainbows and sunshine and no more rainclouds all their remaining days, and there is world peace...

Ugh. Pass the insulin. Give me bittersweet anyday.

[Sainna]

I hope there is somekind of a option in DA3 like there was in DA1 at least for the human nobles O_O

I mean heck, my charecters goal very quickly turned into pushing Alistair into being a whimpy king, then my rogue would become queen, take charge completly and to get to that part I was sooo very willing to stomp on anyone in the way, even if at times it forced me to make a more...uncomfortable/hard decision.

Modifié par Sainna, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:30 .