216 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

SKRemaks wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

shlenderman wrote...
The thing with the op was, I guess, that her female elf got dumped a little too hard.

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there. Not that such endings should ever be possible, but that they're required. That their mere existence means the entire game has transformed into a love story where everything else is secondary. I certainly understand why someone might want that, but that's simply never going to be the case-- it wasn't 13 years ago when I started writing game romances, and isn't now.. Will this cause some folks to thrash around and despair about how we're "getting it wrong" and no doubt completely misunderstanding what makes our stories awesome? Probably. And yet.

Oooh, Mr Shadowbreath.    Come to think of it, that was probably the "swooniest" (totally a word) romance that Bioware has ever had...
<snip>

As far as I know, the first romance Mr. Gaider did was Anomen in BG2.  And, I'm probably one of the few women out there who actually liked it.  Depending on how you approached his romance, you could actually get him to change his alignment.  I did it once, and he killed Aerie.  Critted her, so she flew into chunks.  I sat there for about 5 minutes, stunned.  It was revolutionary to me.

As far as the thread subject goes, I don't need personal happiness at the end of a story.  I just want a really good story.  It's the journey for me, not the destination.  That's why I had no problem with either DA2 or ME3.  Yes, DA2 had issues, but the positives more than outweighed the negatives, as far as I was concerned.

Obviously, YMMV.

Gaider wrote Anomen?  I didn't know that.  I loved him, even if it was the only option a lady bhaalspawn got.  I never changed his alignment to CN since I found him much more useful as a cleric if you get him into the Order.  Is that what you did?  I can't imagine the 'good' Anomen doing something like that to Aerie, she's such a sweet kid!  Wtf did she say to ****** him off?  You can also alter Viconia to be less evil and more nuetral, but don't have Keldorn in your group while you're doing it, or he will do the same thing to her Anomen did to Aerie in your game. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I see TheButterflyEffect has successfully migrated from trolling other non-registered user sections of BSN with loaded posts to getting even devs sucked in to replying.

Successful troll is successful.

[Fawx9]

What about ride off into sunset, but gritty western style?

You know PC alive, maybe with LI, but took a pounding to get there.

Of course if its like a western you can always slightly go the other way (Cowboy Bebop) and it still hits all the right notes for thoose that want more of a bitter sweet ending. I'd make a new character just for that if you were able to pull it off btw.

Just because some of us want a happy ending doesn't mean it needs to be perfect.

We just don't want, door a) death | door death | door c) death

Modifié par Fawx9, 08 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Medhia Nox wrote...

 Not sure why - that's very common in the real world. Wealth and power often ostracize someone.  In fact - I think that would be another compelling idea.  The more famous/powerful the "Warden" gets... the more his friends and allies feel ostracized.
 Actually - economic lines would just be another one of those things I'd use to make allies or ostracize other allies from a PC. 
 A truly complex system would not have NPCs predisposed to liking the PC no matter what he/she is like. 
 I'd rather see NPCs come and go - with only the "right fits" being hangers on.
 Of course - then the question of developer resources comes into play. 
 Anyway - I think most interesting people have conviction... and conviction, no matter what it is, often takes on the aspects of a stereotype. People who lack conviction are legion... and they're all boring.

This, I agree with, and it's part of writing characters as people, and not sticking to any specific formula. One of the things I liked about Dragon Age 2 is that every character has some reason for seeking Hawke out or pulling Hawke into one scheme or another. And that it's possible to avoid them for most of the story, with the exception of Varric; they're not all in camp with you all the time but rather in their own places.

It could have been better done, with more of the characters leaving after a personal goal or two is completed, (not just Isabella), but I understand the pressure on the developers to get the story done with the resources they have, and get the game out the door.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 08 novembre 2012 - 02:57 .

[GodWood]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
But 'truly good' people by that definition are rare. One in millions. One in tens of millions, rare.

As for an example; Mother Theresa. She was respected. Admired. Adored. And by all accounts, had very few friends.

Mother Theresa was a sadistic b*tch.

[BlueMagitek]

Happiness is subjective. Look at the ending of DA:O. You've saved, if not Thedas then Ferelden, you've discovered the Urn of Sacred Ashes, chosen the King of Orzammar, chosen the ruler of Ferelden; and that's the minimum you can do that contributes to a happy ending. Yes, there are losses, but at the end of the day, unless you took the Ultimate Sacrifice (and it is a completely valid ending), you're standing victorious, regardless of your previous standing.

It's plenty happy.

[Firky]

I think the most satisfying moment in DA2 for me was when ...

*endgame spoilers*

I couldn't convince rivalmanced Fenris to side with me and he got a little red circle around him, and you know what I had to do next. The entire endgame was about everything going to hell, including my relationship. It was totally coherent.

(PS. Reading this page more. +1 for being a female gamer who loved Anomen. I thought that romance was fantastic.)

Modifié par Firky, 08 novembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Mello]

DA:O is the happiest ending Bioware gave so far in my opinion.

[blueumi]

I liked that in dragon age 1 it was a mixed bag
yes the hero is tainted and will live a shorter life but the hero gets to help ferelden and can find true love or is at least treated with respect wherever he/she goes

that is better then their life was in most of the origin storys

dragon age origins did a good job of showing the importance of sacrifice in the loss of the life they knew and even their own life but they get to be a hero

dragon age 2 is where bioware went over kill with torchering hawke emotionally

[CheshireBlue]

Tough call, games are different than any other narrative form in that everything that happens to the protagonist is aimed at and felt by you, the player; whereas in a movie, comic or book, you're just along for the ride. You may sympathize but, eh, stuff happens.

Not in games, though... Oh, no! Within them things get very personal, it's your choices and your consequences to face and, contrary to real life, where it can be attributed to fate, god, causality, bad luck or whatever, all unreachable and divine, you know who's imposing the hardships, bad turns and game overs, worse, you have acces to them and can point fingers, blame faces and name names.

I certainly admire, but do not envy, game designers. Theirs can be a tough lot.

Modifié par CheshireBlue, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[devSin]

What about personal happiness for me?

When I got to Shale's introduction in Asunder, I was grinning like a fool. Sadly but truly, that was probably the widest grin I'd had all year. It made me happy.

Shale for DA3! (Just don't kill her off yet, please!)

On point, Origins still has one of my favorite video game endings, specifically the ultimate sacrifice. I hope the DA3 ending won't be as abrupt as DA2 (or at least that they won't cancel the expansion intended to provide the necessary closure), but I'm quite comfortable with where the team has been and where they seem to be heading. I expect good things!

Modifié par devSin, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Twisted Path]

I think the biggest problems come when the writers try to shoehorn bad stuff happening to the protagonist in for the sake of melodrama. Then we get things like DA2's horrible and much reviled Frankenmom scene.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Maria Caliban wrote...

shlenderman wrote...

Some of the issues could be reflected on the audience who is mostly in their teens, so cheesie movies and romance subplats gets a bit too heave emphasis.

Going to disagree. It's the older audience who thinks 'settle down and start a family' is a great way to end a story. Teenagers are more apt to think spending the rest of your life fighting in some unknown but likely unwinnable adventure is cool.

To be honest I thought this series was written to appeal more to romance starved fangirls?

SKRemaks wrote...

As far as I know, the first romance Mr. Gaider did was Anomen in BG2. And, I'm probably one of the few women out there who actually liked it. Depending on how you approached his romance, you could actually get him to change his alignment. I did it once, and he killed Aerie. Critted her, so she flew into chunks. I sat there for about 5 minutes, stunned. It was revolutionary to me.

Was that because you romanced him or because he failed his initiation? I never romanced him so I dont know what happens but I remember he did the same thing after failing his initiation into the order.

[Firky]

*BG2 spoilers*

I'm pretty sure it was initiation. And there was a quest with a family member, or sister (?) where you encouraged him towards a good or an evil path which influenced initiation.

I'm not sure about romance turning someone evil. 0.0 (But, I guess him accepting your advice might be construed as part of that.)

But I did like those really full on moments in BG2. Also with Keldorn and Viconia. And, with the love triangle with Aerie and Haer'Dalis.

*DA spoilers*

The Dragon Ages have had this kind of brutality, like Loghain/Alistair. Also, Bethany/Carver based on class choice might be "arbitrary" but I think harks back to that really tough this or that mentality of BG2. Yet, DA is construed as much softer about "giving players what they want." I'm not entirely sure it's justified.

[Bfler]

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

DA:O is the happiest ending Bioware gave so far in my opinion.

It is the most satisfying I would say.

If you don't lose anyone during the suicide run and destroy the collector base, ME2 has also an happy ending.


And DA2 doesn't have an ending, only two pointless fights against the leaders of the two factions, who suddenly become insane at the end of the game.

[devSin]

Firky wrote...

*BG2 spoilers*

Yes, his sister, Moira (?). If you helped him take the just path (not taking revenge for her supposed murder), then he became a knight; if you helped him kill Saerk (you basically kill the whole family; always a fun time), then he was cast out and kind of went nuts. I think the way they wrote it is that if you take revenge, you learn Saerk wasn't actually responsible, and if you don't, it turns out that he was responsible and got away with it (though these revelations were specific to the romance IIRC). And behind the scenes, there were quite a few bugs and implementation screw-ups.

Although I didn't really favor the character, I thought he was much better developed during the romance (it's just the only time I ever got to experience it was during a bug-fixing spree).

I believe David wrote all the romances, except for Jaheira. I seem to have forgotten why I would believe that, but I apparently do.

Modifié par devSin, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[GodWood]

EntropicAngel wrote...
You know, I thought Seb was blunter than you. Perhaps I was wrong. This is Saphra territory.

If your interested you can watch the Penn & Teller episode Holier Than Thou.

Normally I don't use B.S as a reference but they're basically just regurgitating Christopher Hitchens' critique of her.

[ZtalkerRM]

Well...this whole thing is about ones definition of 'happiness' or 'happy ending.'

I feel that, in case of the Grey Wardens, there can be no happy ending. We know it's an commitment made for life, you'll even die sooner regardless of battle. You can't 'unjoin' the order and let the world burn, now van you?

Like Shep in ME3, Dragon Age pc's are driven by something greater. They put their happiness aside so others can be safe. I personally love playing a character like that.....but I'm someone who loved the ending of Red Dead Redemption as well, so perhaps it's me.

Bioware Isn't owned by Disney...deal with it

[Cyberarmy]

Booo, i was hoping this topic was about Personal Computer happiness..... like something special for PC users...(birds view?)

[Newschmoo]

In DA:O I don't think that my FMage Elf warden would ever have that Hollywood style happy ending. My reason is that she will always put duty first before herself and even her love (even though she still had Alistair as her LI at the end).

I came to realise this more after playing Awakening. I was really gutted when Vigil's Keep fell, more so than any other point in my game play (I saved Amaranthine and knew I should have done more).

On my next play through I will choose a different Origin but as a male, so my warden doesn't get distracted by Alistair! I am quite looking forward to having a different outcome.

[Felya87]

I have to say that for me is already a "happy Ending" if my PC and his/her LI is alive. I don't really care about the "ever after". There could be some best friend dead, or some sacriface made, I'm ok with the fact that not all the character can survive the end of the adventure, or that the Li, even if alive, could never be seen againg by the PC.

I don't like so much the ultimate sacrifice. expecially a forced ultimate sacrifice. I like to have the chance to decide if do it or not. I have once did it in DA:O.

in the end: more chance, the better.

[ZtalkerRM]

@Felya87: You nailed it. Sacrifice needs to be meaningfully. The ending of DA:O was just that. People hated the ME3 ending because it lacked any emotional consequense. It was a distant and abstract choice.

An ending can be happy, in an for the protagonist unhappy, way. Look at Red Dead Redemption, The Unforgiven, Gladiator, Kotor, Halo Reach. Games and movies that I personally love.

I'd be happy to see my PC of da3 go out in a blaze of glory, standing on top of piles of darkspawn, bruised, battered and bathing in blood. Epic.