216 réponses à ce sujet

[Felya87]

@ZtalkerRM
exactly! I don't want resume the ME3 endings, because it's very abused subject, but it give the idea. Is being forced to something that make the thing bad. Is the same I fell for the forced human race.

DA:O endings where my favorites, because I could choose.

[nightscrawl]

Firky wrote...

I couldn't convince rivalmanced Fenris to side with me and he got a little red circle around him, and you know what I had to do next. The entire endgame was about everything going to hell, including my relationship. It was totally coherent.

You can convince Fenris though, or any follower, to go with their non-standard choice if you have max friendship OR rivalry and have completed all of their quests. The only exception is Sebastian, whose status is dependant on your killing Anders.

I do agree about everything going to hell though . I try to play my Hawkes as if they are just trying to keep the pot from boiling over, with varying degrees of success.

[Arppis]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

Completely agreed.

[Ridwan]

Just repeating what many others (including myself) said. DA:Origins had one of those loathed "unartistic" happy endings. Worked out very fine too. One of the reasons I replay it, cause I know I have different options in how to end the game instead of it all boiling down to some lame ass grim dark, life sucks and then you die BS ending.

[Kidd]

David Gaider wrote...

shlenderman wrote...
The thing with the op was, I guess, that her female elf got dumped a little too hard.

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there.

And am I happy for it?

You mean, mean writers tore me up inside when my first warden put her lover on the throne, got dumped for it, didn't get to become his mistress, wanted to die killing the archdemon only to see her king take the final blow for her. The crowds cheered, my warden wept. Even Morrigan was angry my character had denied her! How do you think I felt?

And it doesn't stop there. My first Hawke was a mage and wanted to help Anders better their situation in Thedas. Screw the templars! Let's go to Elthina and make her tell Meredith she's being a big meanie meanpants who needs to back do-HOLY MAKER THE CHANTRY!

Choosing to join her lover in his forced revolution which had shredded and will shred even more innocent life under the idea that some day there might be a better world for mages was not an easy one, and was definitely not what I had planned going into the blighted game.

And that's why I've got DA3 on preorder already. Here's hoping my first DA3 character will be in for a barrage right in the feels as well. Please don't ever, ever change~ <3

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:58 .

[Megakoresh]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

I am not sure I can say that I explicitly "disagree" with your point. I would simply like to point out that you are vaguely hinting on the fact that life is not, in fact, black and white.

This is true. And at the same time not entirely applicable to neither Dragon Age nor Mass Effect. When throughout an entire game, the world, characters and choices are presented to the player in a PURELY black and white fashion, it is natural for the player to wish for the ending to be a resemblance of this too.

If you look at some games like the Witcher 2, for example, where there no black or white at all, the ending, being very unconclusive and outcomes not being the best possible are accepted by the player naturally. There was some commotion with W2 ending, but that was because of lack of content in the third Act, which they remedied with free additions rather quickly.

All I am trying to say, is that your game needs to be consistent. Origins or DA2's endings weren't sour (at least to me), but if you argue that you can't have an ego-boosting ending in the game, you must also make a game that does not boost your ego throughout it's plot.

PS: That's not saying make a Dragon Age: The Line. I don't want the game to completely KILL my ego and make me think about what a horrible person I am.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[esper]

Megakoresh wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

I am not sure I can say that I explicitly "disagree" with your point. I would simply like to point out that you are vaguely hinting on the fact that life is not, in fact, black and white.

This is true. And at the same time not entirely applicable to neither Dragon Age nor Mass Effect. When throughout an entire game, the world, characters and choices are presented to the player in a PURELY black and white fashion, it is natural for the player to wish for the ending to be a resemblance of this too.

If you look at some games like the Witcher 2, for example, where there no black or white at all, the ending, being very unconclusive and outcomes not being the best possible are accepted by the player naturally. There was some commotion with W2 ending, but that was because of lack of content in the third Act, which they remedied with free additions rather quickly.

All I am trying to say, is that your game needs to be consistent. Origins or DA2's endings weren't sour (at least to me), but if you argue that you can't have an ego-boosting ending in the game, you must also make a game that does not boost your ego throughout it's plot.

Dragon age is not black and white. The only black and white things are darkspawn and with the awakened who knows how that will end.
While conflicts like the mage/templar conflict sure is black and white for a person who is such a hundred procent pro-mage supporter such a me, I also regnoize that that the other end of the scale exist, as well as the middle. So no, Thedas is not a black and white universe. it is black and darkgrey, and that ending should reflex that.

[Megakoresh]

esper wrote...
Dragon age is not black and white. The only black and white things are darkspawn and with the awakened who knows how that will end.
While conflicts like the mage/templar conflict sure is black and white for a person who is such a hundred procent pro-mage supporter such a me, I also regnoize that that the other end of the scale exist, as well as the middle. So no, Thedas is not a black and white universe. it is black and darkgrey, and that ending should reflex that.

I don't know if we are allowed to spoil here. Probably not, so I am not going to, but remember the Noble boy mission? Tree in the wood? Werewolves?

The only NOT B&W choice in Origins was the political affair in Orzamaar. In fact DA2 was a lot less B&W than Origins. DA2 improved on many aspects in terms of stroy delively, like making it more grey, personal, less superhero-style. It was just rushed and poorly executed.

If you want to see a truly not black and white game that is also very well executed play Witcher 2, that game does the whole "no bad guys" thing best on the market right now. You can also play Spec Ops: The LIne if you have the stomach for it. The only way you could view Origins or DA2 as  not a typical GoodVSBad  scenario is if you haven't really seen any other relevant examples.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Amirit]

David Gaider wrote...
...

Yet there are people who honestly believe they are being punished because they chose not to be human or a noble and yet are not given all the same opportunities that a human noble might have. There are consequences to that decision they don't like (ie. which don't lead to the happily-ever-after with Alistair), and thus they are wrong.

Which I'm fine with. I can't tell them what should be important to their own game, but I'll never consider that an actual problem.

Though, I am a bit scared to read all these stuff about bitter-sweetness and your attraction to it (sounds like DA3 love stories will be VERY emotional) but that last phrase can only add more respect to the writer's view of his own story. And, of course, to the writer himself.


(Still, I would not mind a tiny chance of a happy end with sunsets and pink clouds )

[Shevy]

Don't delivering a "walking into the sunset with the LI after saving the world and everyone lives on in peace"-ending is something I really like about the Dragon Age series.
"Real Happy Endings" don't allow me to imagine what might happen after the game ends, it's just boring stuff.

But my hope this time is that DA III's story will end a little more resolved on a personal level, giving more closure for the protagonist so to say. Origins did it better than DA II with the option to speak with the team members after the final fight while DA II provided too less on that point. Final fight-> credits, meh.

[Medhia Nox]

While I'm not "Pro-Unicorns and Rainbows" ending - I think it's the modern obsession with celebrating imperfection and apathy toward self-improvement that makes people interested in misery endings.

This thread is about "Personal Happiness" - which is ultimately the most selfish form of happiness - and fits right in with this mentality.

I'm all for selfish endings for those players who want them - but I'd also like those endings to have less than optimal results for the "Mission" and the "World"

"Optimal Endings" should be the optimal ending to the main quest - and should require the sacrifice of some, or all, of the Personal Happiness qualities. I believe those qualities to be:

- Romances
- Gear
- Power
- Content

===

But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling.

They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think DAO did have a happy ending.

[Emerald Rift]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

shlenderman wrote...
The thing with the op was, I guess, that her female elf got dumped a little too hard.

My impression is that some people see romance plots as separate from the main plot-- as in the offering of a romance of any kind is like a contract guaranteeing that, despite whatever else happens in the plot, that romance needs to have a happy ending. If not marriage & babies, then the possibility of such as you run off into the ether with the romance of your choice.

I don't really agree, there.

And am I happy for it?

You mean, mean writers tore me up inside when my first warden put her lover on the throne, got dumped for it, didn't get to become his mistress, wanted to die killing the archdemon only to see her king take the final blow for her. The crowds cheered, my warden wept. Even Morrigan was angry my character had denied her! How do you think I felt?

And it doesn't stop there. My first Hawke was a mage and wanted to help Anders better their situation in Thedas. Screw the templars! Let's go to Elthina and make her tell Meredith she's being a big meanie meanpants who needs to back do-HOLY MAKER THE CHANTRY!

Choosing to join her lover in his forced revolution which had shredded and will shred even more innocent life under the idea that some day there might be a better world for mages was not an easy one, and was definitely not what I had planned going into the blighted game.

And that's why I've got DA3 on preorder already. Here's hoping my first DA3 character will be in for a barrage right in the feels as well. Please don't ever, ever change~ <3

Everything you just said +1 

[Ridwan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think DAO did have a happy ending.

It did, some people just don't want to admit it though cause apparently happy endings are signs of unartistic writing or some crap like that.

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think DAO did have a happy ending.

Generally, yeah.

Maybe not for when romanced Alistiar dies, though that's not a bad ending either.

[Fast Jimmy]

Medhia Nox wrote...

While I'm not "Pro-Unicorns and Rainbows" ending - I think it's the modern obsession with celebrating imperfection and apathy toward self-improvement that makes people interested in misery endings.

This thread is about "Personal Happiness" - which is ultimately the most selfish form of happiness - and fits right in with this mentality.

I'm all for selfish endings for those players who want them - but I'd also like those endings to have less than optimal results for the "Mission" and the "World"

"Optimal Endings" should be the optimal ending to the main quest - and should require the sacrifice of some, or all, of the Personal Happiness qualities. I believe those qualities to be:

- Romances
- Gear
- Power
- Content

===

But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling.

They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

To build off this point, I'd like a game where the resources you have (either in terms of things like gold/money or certain favors you gain from doing quests) could be used either selfishly or to further a cause.

For instance, in DA3, I'd love the option of spending my limited amount of gold on upgrades for my castle, which would help save lives of my troops and give me a better outcome for the Mage/Templar struggle, or use it to buy equipment or upgrades for my companions, which could A) make the gameplay itself easier and/or result in negative outcomes for my companions if they aren't equipped well enough (think how not doing a loyalty mission in ME2 could cost them their life in the suicide mission, except tied to equipment or upgrades received). This would make the player make a choice - do I want an easier fight for my character and have all my companions survive, or do I want my cause to succeed with the least amount of blodshed?

It could be an interesting dynamic. Balancing personal happiness with moral goals.

[Lakhi]

There are no happy endings.

[David Gaider]

Medhia Nox wrote...
But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling. They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

I'd agree with that. I have no obsession with pain for its own sake-- and I think some of the comments prove that. DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was. One could also look on DA2's ending as happy or bitter, depending on what was more personally important. So that's fine. My only issue was ever the notion that there should be no cost at all.

[eyesofastorm]

David Gaider wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling. They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

I'd agree with that. I have no obsession with pain for its own sake-- and I think some of the comments prove that. DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was. One could also look on DA2's ending as happy or bitter, depending on what was more personally important. So that's fine. My only issue was ever the notion that there should be no cost at all.

I think you might be able to get the same effect by giving the player a choice where they must be willing to pay a high cost to have the best chance at the best outcome or to not be willing to pay that cost but the result is likely to be a less than complete victory.  Then, after having made the choice to pay the high price, when the dust settles, the player finds that things turned out better than they could have expected and they didn't have to pay that cost afterall where in the case of the player who wasn't willing to pay the high cost, the dust settles and they find that not only did they have an incomplete victory, but they somehow ended up paying that initial cost anyway.  Something like that.  Not that I'm arguing that you *should* write a rainbows and butterflies ending.  I was very satisfied with all of the endings that I experienced in multiple playthroughs of DA:O.  I just saying that it's possible for there to be a happy, happy, joy, joy ending without it being artificially sweetened and still requiring the player to feel like they've been drug through the mud on the way there.  In fact, I would suggest that such an ending would be even more satisfying after having made the decision to sacrifice a companion (for instance) only to find out that you've won a complete victory and said companion survives.  Just a thought.

edit:  Better yet, randomize the outcome.  Not completely random... this choice gives you this % chance of this outcome and so on, but leave the final outcome up to a digital role of the dice by the software based on odds you create when you make your ingame choices.  That way players won't be able to metagame outcomes to the same extent.  More realistic and potentially even more fulfilling when you actually do get that rare puppies and cupcakes ending.

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 08 novembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Pcmag1]

David Gaider wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling. They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

I'd agree with that. I have no obsession with pain for its own sake-- and I think some of the comments prove that. DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was. One could also look on DA2's ending as happy or bitter, depending on what was more personally important. So that's fine. My only issue was ever the notion that there should be no cost at all.

DA2? The game where you help to star a civil war that will result in thousand getting killed? Where it is flat out said that no friendship lasted. (We went our separate ways). Where your mother was butchered by psychopat no matter what you do? Where you find if you romanced Isabella you probobly got a STD?? Where you have to choose between killing Anders and starting war with Starkhaven.  WHERE SANDAL LEAVES YOU,  I apologize I missed the happy ending how can you get there?

[TheButterflyEffect]

David Gaider wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Saving the world tastes sour if you're left alone and miserable in the end. Seriously, the ending of the original game tasted so sour that I was nauseous afterwards. I had to get up and go take some Gravol.

If you considered the original game to have a sour and unhappy ending, this is probably not the series for you. From the other thread on this topic, it's easy to see that some people really do just want fantasy wish-fulfillment-- save the world, get the girl/boy, live happily ever after. Totally understandable.

This is not that series. This does not mean that every story need end on a bitter note (as much as I joke about liking bittersweet endings the best, I don't in fact think that every ending needs to be bittersweet... and I don't actually think that 'bittersweet' actually qualifies unless there's also some sweet in there), but endings without some kind of personal cost from the hero are unlikely. Ewok parades and "yay! you get everything you ever wanted!" type ego-boost endings are not really where we're ever going to go. If that's not clear after the last two Dragon Age games, then I guess you're not paying attention.

And, incidentally, whatever you thought of Mass Effect is really quite irrelevant on this front. There is very little crossover between the teams on the creative side, so trying to look for some kind of historical pattern or expecting that a perceived pattern will continue is more of an exercise in frustration on your part. Just so you're aware.

Well, it was mostly the twisted demon babymaking sex rape that made me sick. And how apathetic and indifferent everyone still acts towards the PC after they saved them all from dying horribly.

My pc just wanted to be with his/her same sex lover, and feel like what they have sacrificed actually means something to the world.

From what I gathered, it doesn't seem to mean squat.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[Yalision]

David Gaider wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
But if we're talking having misery endings for their own sake - no thanks. It's very Hipster... and to me it amounts to the worst form of emotional grab in modern storytelling. They are - to me - just as bad, if not worse, than saccharine endings.

I'd agree with that. I have no obsession with pain for its own sake-- and I think some of the comments prove that. DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was. One could also look on DA2's ending as happy or bitter, depending on what was more personally important. So that's fine. My only issue was ever the notion that there should be no cost at all.

Honestly, the ending to Dragon Age II seemed more inconclusive than either happy or bitter. The way  it ended, Dragon Age II seemed more like an interlude for things to come, an extended piece of DLC setting the stage for a grand play as opposed to being that kind of demonstration itself. It's truly disappointing that Exalted March never saw the light of day because now Hawke's story simply hangs.

[TheButterflyEffect]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Not if your goal is to marry the king of Ferelden, that's true. Yet there are people who honestly believe they are being punished because they chose not to be human or a noble and yet are not given all the same opportunities that a human noble might have. There are consequences to that decision they don't like (ie. which don't lead to the happily-ever-after with Alistair), and thus they are wrong.

Which I'm fine with. I can't tell them what should be important to their own game, but I'll never consider that an actual problem.

Don't care about marrying the guy. I just think it's crap that he says he "loves" you, but after being crowned, his first thought is to dump you like a stale hamburger. And you have to be super persuasive to convince the guy NOT to curb you and keep you around as a simple lover.

Seemed like a nice kid, that was so out of character. Jerk.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was.

This is something that I think people are missing.  What constitutes a happy ending can differ radically from character to character.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 08 novembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[esper]

Megakoresh wrote...

esper wrote...
Dragon age is not black and white. The only black and white things are darkspawn and with the awakened who knows how that will end.
While conflicts like the mage/templar conflict sure is black and white for a person who is such a hundred procent pro-mage supporter such a me, I also regnoize that that the other end of the scale exist, as well as the middle. So no, Thedas is not a black and white universe. it is black and darkgrey, and that ending should reflex that.

I don't know if we are allowed to spoil here. Probably not, so I am not going to, but remember the Noble boy mission? Tree in the wood? Werewolves?

The only NOT B&W choice in Origins was the political affair in Orzamaar. In fact DA2 was a lot less B&W than Origins. DA2 improved on many aspects in terms of stroy delively, like making it more grey, personal, less superhero-style. It was just rushed and poorly executed.

If you want to see a truly not black and white game that is also very well executed play Witcher 2, that game does the whole "no bad guys" thing best on the market right now. You can also play Spec Ops: The LIne if you have the stomach for it. The only way you could view Origins or DA2 as  not a typical GoodVSBad  scenario is if you haven't really seen any other relevant examples.

I will never touch the witcher in my whole life. I have seen gameplay vidoes and decided that it is not a game for me.


The choiced in da:o were not black and white, they simply had an easy persuade solves everything solution which has luckely been removed. Thedas is a black and grey universe, the ending will reflect that.