216 réponses à ce sujet

[JCAP]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can have a happy ending in DA:O as long as you make the right decisions.

Playing a female non-human who romances Alistar and puts him on the throne in not a right decision.

Not if your goal is to marry the king of Ferelden, that's true. Yet there are people who honestly believe they are being punished because they chose not to be human or a noble and yet are not given all the same opportunities that a human noble might have. There are consequences to that decision they don't like (ie. which don't lead to the happily-ever-after with Alistair), and thus they are wrong.

Which I'm fine with. I can't tell them what should be important to their own game, but I'll never consider that an actual problem.

Don't care about marrying the guy. I just think it's crap that he says he "loves" you, but after being crowned, his first thought is to dump you like a stale hamburger. And you have to be super persuasive to convince the guy NOT to curb you and keep you around as a simple lover.

Seemed like a nice kid, that was so out of character. Jerk.

No, it wasn't.

Alistair may seem like a kid sometimes, but he takes his responsibilities very seriously.

He knows he has to have heirs, and he knows that is impossible/hard to have children with another Grey Warden.

(I did not really understand if it's hard to have children between grey wardens or is impossible)


You are the one who isn't paying attention to the story and the characters.

Modifié par JCAP, 08 novembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

And what leads him to believe poopping out rugrats is so darn important? There's plenty of heirs already, good nobles who can handle the whole scene just fine after he kicks the bucket.

If not, he can just adopt a kid. Like the Romans did. And it worked very well. Yay, problem solved.

Plus he potentially already can have one with Morrigan...or maybe not, because I use mods to be able to do it myself all the time, never let HIM touch my dark gal. Bleh. Actually, I'd rather not talk about that.

The "bloodline" more than likely has a crapload of other heirs out there already. Really, only having a single line of descent and being the ONLY still living descendant of someone who lived such a long time ago, is biologically impossible.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[esper]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

DAO could indeed have had a very happy ending for you... provided you were willing to pay the cost, and depending on what your criteria for "happy" was.

This is something that I think people are missing.  What constitutes a happy ending can differ radically from character to character.

I rarely agree with Sylvius so I have to highlight this instance. Da2 had a happy ending for my Hawke. I was a little bit worried for Thedas, but my Hawke felt relief.


On a different note. Since we are have been talking bittersweet endings on the board, I think I would like to see a choice between those two options: Being able to attain a great secure/stable/happy future for my pc at the cost off perhaps leaving the world a little worse off, or leaving the world a little better off at the cost of a sacrifice. Sure the last thing is more heroic, but sometimes I want to have an option for my more selfish characther. Da:o came close to it with the dark ritual, but since the consequence of it never came in that game or the following dlc it still feels as a get out of jail for free card-

[TheButterflyEffect]

Bittersweet endings are fine and good.

I just don't like them if they offer absolutely nothing in terms of hope for the future, or for the PC to have a better life. Because that's boring.

DAO had none whatsoever.

[Zobo]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I think you might be able to get the same effect by giving the player a choice where they must be willing to pay a high cost to have the best chance at the best outcome or to not be willing to pay that cost but the result is likely to be a less than complete victory.  Then, after having made the choice to pay the high price, when the dust settles, the player finds that things turned out better than they could have expected and they didn't have to pay that cost afterall where in the case of the player who wasn't willing to pay the high cost, the dust settles and they find that not only did they have an incomplete victory, but they somehow ended up paying that initial cost anyway.

I like the part where you suggest a personal individual happiness vs. an ultimate goal percent of success dilemma.
Also I don't like the part where you completely subvert this idea into a standard good self-sacrificial guys have it all for free anyway at the end while selfish jerks should be punished scenario.

eyesofastorm wrote...edit:  Better yet, randomize the outcome.  Not completely random... this choice gives you this % chance of this outcome and so on, but leave the final outcome up to a digital role of the dice by the software based on odds you create when you make your ingame choices.  That way players won't be able to metagame outcomes to the same extent.  More realistic and potentially even more fulfilling when you actually do get that rare puppies and cupcakes ending.

So in that case instead of simply metagaming players will abuse save-load system to death ragebreaking keyboards after each unsuccsessful attempt while they are on it :happy:.

[esper]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

And what leads him to believe poopping out rugrats is so darn important? There's plenty of heirs already, good nobles who can handle the whole scene just fine after he kicks the bucket.

If not, he can just adopt a kid. Like the Romans did. And it worked very well. Yay, problem solved.

Plus he potentially already can have one with Morrigan...or maybe not, because I use mods to be able to do it myself all the time, never let HIM touch my dark gal. Bleh. Actually, I'd rather not talk about that.

The "bloodline" more than likely has a crapload of other heirs out there already. Really, only having a single line of descent and being the ONLY still living descendant of someone who lived such a long time ago, is biologically impossible.

The blood line is important to Fereldans, if you think any noble can do place Anora on the throne, the option is there. You seem to have a problem with Alistair more than personal happiness, though (and you can make him not dump you), perhaps you should take it to the Alistair thread on the da:o boards? 

[TheButterflyEffect]

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

[Firky]

nightscrawl wrote...

Firky wrote...

I couldn't convince rivalmanced Fenris to side with me and he got a little red circle around him, and you know what I had to do next. The entire endgame was about everything going to hell, including my relationship. It was totally coherent.

You can convince Fenris though, or any follower, to go with their non-standard choice if you have max friendship OR rivalry and have completed all of their quests. The only exception is Sebastian, whose status is dependant on your killing Anders.

I do agree about everything going to hell though . I try to play my Hawkes as if they are just trying to keep the pot from boiling over, with varying degrees of success.

I definitely couldn't. (I reloaded. And he was maxed at rivalry.)

However, I do suspect it might have been a bug. I accidentally slept with Merrill because the heart was top right one time and I was rushing through. I think it semi-kicked Fenris out of the romance. He was cold, but then both he and Merrill ran away with me at the end. (Even though he was dead.)

Yay! Early builds of PC games!

[esper]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Bittersweet endings are fine and good.

I just don't like them if they offer absolutely nothing in terms of hope for the future, or for the PC to have a better life. Because that's boring.

DAO had none whatsoever.

Ehm... I have been wrecking my brain for a polite way of saying this, but if you get so emotional over this and claims that DAO had no such hope, then perhaps you should not play dragon age at all?

You know from pretty early that the taint will lead you to an early grave, but besides that those 20 years give and take you have left at the end of da:o have every chance of being a good life.

[TheButterflyEffect]

I meant hope for the future in the story, not for the game itself...

And it's 30 years. But it doesn't really matter because the average person in those days only lived to be around 35 years old.

But the game just leaves off with the fact that you're still exiled and unwanted in your former home. And offers no leads for what is going to happen in the PC's future.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[Fast Jimmy]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Hmmm... as a member of the male gender, I am going to go ahead and say that assuming that keeping on a current love interest as a mistress is something that she would be gung-ho and happy about is a... dangerous, shall we say... mindset. I would not be surprised if smoke started coming out a woman's ears if I tried to pitch that as a "consolation prize" for not being able to marry her.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Hmmm... as a member of the male gender, I am going to go ahead and say that assuming that keeping on a current love interest as a mistress is something that she would be gung-ho and happy about is a... dangerous, shall we say... mindset. I would not be surprised if smoke started coming out a woman's ears if I tried to pitch that as a "consolation prize" for not being able to marry her.

He's the damn king, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

And no, I don't think offering to keep her as a mistress would be offensive. She'd understand why marriage might not be the best plan, but they can still stay together. After all, none of her other potential LI's ever marry her either.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:15 .

[JCAP]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Or maybe he respects the pc??

That story of becoming his mistress is more like becoming his b*tch.

Sorry, but this thread is stupid.

Gaider, keep the good work.

Butterfly, stop making threads just for the hell of it.

[TheButterflyEffect]

JCAP wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Or maybe he respects the pc??

That story of becoming his mistress is more like becoming his b*tch.

Sorry, but this thread is stupid.

Gaider, keep the good work.

Butterfly, stop making threads just for the hell of it.

Dropping her like burnt toast is most definitely not a gesture of respect.

And it's not so bad. You should go read about the many famous mistress of many historical men in power.

[esper]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Alistair is the only known person off the blood line left. Marric was commiting adultery left and right so he properly isn't the last, but as far as he and Fereldan knows, he is the last left.

But all that doesn't matter, you or your characther, but it sounds more like you, feels personal let down by Alistair, you thought him to be more romantic good than he were. It is sad, but such is life and persons.  There were plenty of warnings in the game that it could happen, you simply thought Alistair a better/stronger/more romantic person that he was.

[brushyourteeth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Hmmm... as a member of the male gender, I am going to go ahead and say that assuming that keeping on a current love interest as a mistress is something that she would be gung-ho and happy about is a... dangerous, shall we say... mindset. I would not be surprised if smoke started coming out a woman's ears if I tried to pitch that as a "consolation prize" for not being able to marry her.

True. And there's definitely something to be said for a man whose principles are more important to him than any woman.

And something also to be said about the kind of woman that would demand he lay his integrity aside to be on good terms with her. 

[esper]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Hmmm... as a member of the male gender, I am going to go ahead and say that assuming that keeping on a current love interest as a mistress is something that she would be gung-ho and happy about is a... dangerous, shall we say... mindset. I would not be surprised if smoke started coming out a woman's ears if I tried to pitch that as a "consolation prize" for not being able to marry her.

As a member of the female gender, I will say that it is wise of you.

[TheButterflyEffect]

esper wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Alistair is the only known person off the blood line left. Marric was commiting adultery left and right so he properly isn't the last, but as far as he and Fereldan knows, he is the last left.

But all that doesn't matter, you or your characther, but it sounds more like you, feels personal let down by Alistair, you thought him to be more romantic good than he were. It is sad, but such is life and persons.  There were plenty of warnings in the game that it could happen, you simply thought Alistair a better/stronger/more romantic person that he was.

No. He's just an bumbling ass all around. Someone sound the VIRGIN ALARM.

I'm sure they could find another relative, hopefully one with half a brain, if they tried.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[JCAP]

Alright, this is obviously a troll thread.

[TheButterflyEffect]

This is why I almost never play with female protagonists anymore. They always seemed to get screwed over the worst.

Now all my character are guys. I've had a couple of female PC's since, but all of them are either 100% gay or only into elves.

[brushyourteeth]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

esper wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Alistair is the only known person off the blood line left. Marric was commiting adultery left and right so he properly isn't the last, but as far as he and Fereldan knows, he is the last left.

But all that doesn't matter, you or your characther, but it sounds more like you, feels personal let down by Alistair, you thought him to be more romantic good than he were. It is sad, but such is life and persons.  There were plenty of warnings in the game that it could happen, you simply thought Alistair a better/stronger/more romantic person that he was.

No. He's just an bumbling ass all around. Someone sound the VIRGIN ALARM.

I'm sure they could find another relative, hopefully one with half a brain, if they tried.

Now we're being mean to virgins? Would you like a puppy to kick too?

[Fast Jimmy]

JCAP wrote...

Alright, this is obviously a troll thread.

Yep, seven pages long with comments from the Lead Writer of DA3... DEFINITELY a troll thread.

[esper]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

JCAP wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Or maybe he respects the pc??

That story of becoming his mistress is more like becoming his b*tch.

Sorry, but this thread is stupid.

Gaider, keep the good work.

Butterfly, stop making threads just for the hell of it.

Dropping her like burnt toast is most definitely not a gesture of respect.

And it's not so bad. You should go read about the many famous mistress of many historical men in power.

Being his mistress means watching as he marry someone else in an attempt to get an legitimate heir, and no as king he can't just do anything he want. In Fereldan the monarch does not have absolut power, he has power because he is supported by his nobles, you are attempting to dethrone Loghain by removing the nobles support.

Sigh, if you want a happy ending with unharden Alistair you should just  let him stay in the wardens, where he wants to stay. He get his most happy ending, you get to keep your mann and Anora gets her damn throne, everybody (expect Eamon) is happy.

[TheButterflyEffect]

brushyourteeth wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

esper wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

If he cared about the PC he should automatically think of keeping her as a mistress, not kicking her to the curb. If he really cared about that, he would NEVER do that. He would refuse to leave her.

And like I said, he probably has a ton of cousins and such out there who are also part of the "bloodline" crap just the same.

Alistair is the only known person off the blood line left. Marric was commiting adultery left and right so he properly isn't the last, but as far as he and Fereldan knows, he is the last left.

But all that doesn't matter, you or your characther, but it sounds more like you, feels personal let down by Alistair, you thought him to be more romantic good than he were. It is sad, but such is life and persons.  There were plenty of warnings in the game that it could happen, you simply thought Alistair a better/stronger/more romantic person that he was.

No. He's just an bumbling ass all around. Someone sound the VIRGIN ALARM.

I'm sure they could find another relative, hopefully one with half a brain, if they tried.

Now we're being mean to virgins? Would you like a puppy to kick too?

It was only one aspect of his "character" that made him that much more pathetic.

[eyesofastorm]

Zobo wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

I think you might be able to get the same effect by giving the player a choice where they must be willing to pay a high cost to have the best chance at the best outcome or to not be willing to pay that cost but the result is likely to be a less than complete victory.  Then, after having made the choice to pay the high price, when the dust settles, the player finds that things turned out better than they could have expected and they didn't have to pay that cost afterall where in the case of the player who wasn't willing to pay the high cost, the dust settles and they find that not only did they have an incomplete victory, but they somehow ended up paying that initial cost anyway.

I like the part where you suggest a personal individual happiness vs. an ultimate goal percent of success dilemma.
Also I don't like the part where you completely subvert this idea into a standard good self-sacrificial guys have it all for free anyway at the end while selfish jerks should be punished scenario.

eyesofastorm wrote...edit:  Better yet, randomize the outcome.  Not completely random... this choice gives you this % chance of this outcome and so on, but leave the final outcome up to a digital role of the dice by the software based on odds you create when you make your ingame choices.  That way players won't be able to metagame outcomes to the same extent.  More realistic and potentially even more fulfilling when you actually do get that rare puppies and cupcakes ending.

So in that case instead of simply metagaming players will abuse save-load system to death ragebreaking keyboards after each unsuccsessful attempt while they are on it :happy:.

Gaider wants the character to sacrifice.  I was proposing a way that the character could sacrifice and still get the happy ending.  As for rewarding selflessness vs. punishing selfishiness, not being willing to sacrifice a party member for the greater good might easily be either the selfless or selfish choice.  I don't think that one is black and white... depends too much on circumstances.  And I thought Gaider would appreciate the cruelty involved in handing the player negative consequences after they've chosen to accept a less positive outcome just so they could avoid those negative consequences.  At any rate, if it comes down to the roll of the dice, all a player can do is play uncertain odds and there is really no reward or punishment about it.