968 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra, it is all too apparent that your Control!Shepard will use her powers to further your particular interests, namely, perpetuating asari domination and wiping out every trace of Cerberus. That is your prerogative of course as the AI god-empress of the galaxy, but pretending this is for the good of the galaxy - particularly the asari domination - reminds me a little of Warden Kuril.

As for Cerberus, "Cerberus is an idea. Ideas are not so easily destroyed". Destroy its current incarnation and something else will pop up. With luck, it'll be a little more for "advancement and protection of humanity" instead of human supremacy, but in that case another human supremacist group will come to exist. As Control!Shepard, you'll have the power to cut them off like champignons as soon as they poke their heads out of the earth, but you will become a heavy-handed autocratic ruler in the process.

Also, your methods are crude. In a recent post, I have suggested memetic engineering as Control!Shepard's tool of choice. My Control!Shepard would have agents spreading a particular spin on things. Information is not suppressed but the way it's interpreted is influenced. Extremist groups are not suppressed but the general cultural climate will be influenced to limit the damage they can do. With a god-like intellect and processing power, Control!Shepard will know the vital points in space and time where a small intervention can cause a bigger change in public consciousness, without ever infringing on any individual's freedom.

[MrStoob]

On the original OP premise. It's easy to sympathise/empathise with someone when you are not affected by their actions. If you could ask all those affected by Cerberus, they'd probably be shocked that a high ranking official of a fascist organisation is receiving such sympathy. I'll leave at that for fear of invoking Godwin's Law.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

@Ieldra2

Ok I am rather curious about this...

You seem to be taking your own 'personal stance' on how Petrovsky came across to you in the comic as something your Shepard would like to be buddies with. You comment on how you don't like Aria much. Whilst I could state that you are 'metagaming', if your Shepard doesn't like Aria much, why would they help her?

I think you should be looking at yourself rather than this DLC in considering ME3 as a RPG.

Am sure I told you this at Gamescom earlier this year, I have a Shepard who really don't like Asari, to the point that he didn't go looking for Liara (until he was forced to by game mechanics, so you can't tar ME3 with the brush of 'forcing you to do something' seeing as we've had that from the first game), he didn't go to the Crescent Nebula, let alone Ilum in ME2 (and still got Miranda through the Suicide Mission safely), not took him through ME3 yet but he won't be Aria's lapdog on Citadel just to get the Merc Gangs and he won't be talking to Liara much other than when he has to.

Hell, I've got a Paragon Shep that most likely won't help Aria in her little war purely because they just wouldn't see the need (I believe she only talks about giving her forces during the DLC), whilst I've got plenty of other Sheps that will.

Now before you say that you don't 'roleplay' your characters and don't consider it integral as an RPG, well that's your opinion and your entitled to it. The fact is, as my earlier comment has pointed out 'railroaded' choices have been in the Mass Effect series from the first game, so for you to find it surprising that you possibly are only going to get the choice of killing Petrovsky and not betraying Aria for him does make me wonder why you are banging your drum about this?

As you well know, there are plenty of people that wished they could've shoved Miranda out an airlock in ME2 (yes I've used this intentionally as I know you like her  ), to quote a Rolling Stones song... "You can't always get what you want" 

[Steelcan]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra, when you read 1984, I bet you sat down and thought, "I want to be just like Big Brother"

The irony of coming from a farking Cerberus fanboy.

. What makes you say that?

[Silcron]

Steelcan wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra, when you read 1984, I bet you sat down and thought, "I want to be just like Big Brother"

The irony of coming from a farking Cerberus fanboy.

. What makes you say that?

The TIM avatar obviously, I'm not going to get into the argue (I haven't read it and I don't know where it comes from) but I bet major just assumed that you're a Cerberus fan from that, which doesn't need to be real (you could just love the character design, the looks...) but making that assumption isn't that far fetched.

Modifié par Silcron, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Ieldra]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
@Ieldra2
Ok I am rather curious about this...

You seem to be taking your own 'personal stance' on how Petrovsky came across to you in the comic as something your Shepard would like to be buddies with. You comment on how you don't like Aria much. Whilst I could state that you are 'metagaming', if your Shepard doesn't like Aria much, why would they help her?

I help her because she'll help me, and I respect her attitude "As I see it, if you don't win this war, we're all dead. It's in my interest to help you." But I don't like her. I detest the necessity of working with a crime lord, but "we're all making some sacrifices today". It's something I can fit readily into my roleplaying.

It's different when it comes to not being able to make a pro-Petrovsky choice. For me (and my main Shepard), Cerberus represents pushing the envelope in science and technology on the good side and the well-known atrocities on the bad side. When I see a basically honorable person working for Cerberus, I see this as an acknowledgement of the good part, counteracting the frequent anti-science vibes I get from large parts of the ME trilogy, which I detest. I want to roleplay my Shepard with that attitude. I can live with not being to express it often because then it stays in my imagination, but I would hate being forced to actively act against it. Taking a bad in-game presentation on its own, I would of course have no reason to associate the good aspects of Cerberus with Petrovsy - so if he were a new Cerberus general we know nothing about I wouldn't have a problem. But Petrovsky was introduced in the comic as a honorable man, and retconning him to be bad not only deprives me of an anticipated opportunity to express what's in my Shepard's mind but also reinforces the anti-science vibes I get from parts of the trilogy (ironically excluding the ending).

As you well know, there are plenty of people that wished they could've shoved Miranda out an airlock in ME2 (yes I've used this intentionally as I know you like her), to quote a Rolling Stones song... "You can't always get what you want"

I would not have minded that option to be present, as long as the option I prefer also remained present.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Steelcan]

Silcron wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

The irony of coming from a farking Cerberus fanboy.

. What makes you say that?

The TIM avatar obviously, I'm not going to get into the argue (I haven't read it and I don't know where it comes from) but I bet major just assumed that you're a Cerberus fan from that, which doesn't need to be real (you could just love the character design, the looks...) but making that assumption isn't that far fetched.

. I like the character TIM and the idea of Cerberus in ME/2, but in ME3:sick:

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra, it is all too apparent that your Control!Shepard will use her powers to further your particular interests, namely, perpetuating asari domination and wiping out every trace of Cerberus. That is your prerogative of course as the AI god-empress of the galaxy, but pretending this is for the good of the galaxy - particularly the asari domination - reminds me a little of Warden Kuril.

As for Cerberus, "Cerberus is an idea. Ideas are not so easily destroyed". Destroy its current incarnation and something else will pop up. With luck, it'll be a little more for "advancement and protection of humanity" instead of human supremacy, but in that case another human supremacist group will come to exist. As Control!Shepard, you'll have the power to cut them off like champignons as soon as they poke their heads out of the earth, but you will become a heavy-handed autocratic ruler in the process.

Also, your methods are crude. In a recent post, I have suggested memetic engineering as Control!Shepard's tool of choice. My Control!Shepard would have agents spreading a particular spin on things. Information is not suppressed but the way it's interpreted is influenced. Extremist groups are not suppressed but the general cultural climate will be influenced to limit the damage they can do. With a god-like intellect and processing power, Control!Shepard will know the vital points in space and time where a small intervention can cause a bigger change in public consciousness, without ever infringing on any individual's freedom.

It's still early. A lot of last night's conversation was, I admit, an emotional reaction against those who wanted outright revenge against the asari. Speaking objectively, and keeping in mind that my Shepard is a better person than I am, I probably wouldn't intervene quite so far, although I do genuinely believe that Thessian culture is the most advantageous one to be spread around the galaxy; I don't need to do such spreading myself, but I do want to rebuild everyone crushed by the Reapers to their former glory. Except the batarians, who'll be rebuilt to a completely new glory because their former glory was terrible.

As for Cerberus, while it may be the case that ideas can't be destroyed, TIM and his cabal can be, which leaves any new groups starting at square one. Those will, with any luck, be much easier for the Alliance and Spectres to deal with, although I do plan on allowing planetary law enforcement to requisition Collector units to handle special cases.

And I'll take your meme-engineering idea into account.

[Ieldra]

On the topic of the asari:

The problem is that we don't know what they knew. If they knew there was useful knowledge about the Reapers in their beacon and didn't tell the galaxy, then they deserve every bit of the rage aimed their way. Given that the asari councilor came to Shepard at least suspecting there was critical information in it, I think this interpretation is very plausible. In that case, the war could have been won with much fewer casualties, not to speak without Kai Leng's interference and the subsequent loss of the Citadel, and all that could be laid squarely at the asari's feet because they just sat on their secrets while watching the galaxy burn, until the fire spread to their own house and they couldn't ignore it any longer.

If they didn't know, then this was a mere act of stupidity on par with the Alliance not looking into its Prothean archive deeply enough to find the Crucible plans earlier, but that raises the question why the asari councilor lead Shepard to the Athame temple. I don't know your take on things, but the picture is really not very nice. I wouldn't advocate revenge, but I think the asari leadership should be subject to a thorough inquiry.

As for the general subject of keeping secrets Council Law doesn't permit, well, everyone else would've done the same if feasible, so I don't think that should count. Since asari influence didn't exactly wreck the galaxy I find any overblown moral outrage hypocritical. It was still was against their own law though. Using double standards to your own advantage never endears you to people.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Xilizhra]

It is NOT "the asari." It's the tiny matriarchal clique that actually knew about it. I'd be surprised if there were more than fifteen people who were in the know, compared to the trillions-strong general asari population. The main reason I want to keep this secret, in fact, is because the BSN has amply demonstrated that way, way too many people won't be able to distinguish between a tiny few asari and the entire species, and there'd be a completely undeserved backlash.
And given that I'm still skeptical of their ability to get any information at all out of the beacon without the Cipher, I don't believe they thought they had anything useful until they decided to give it to Shepard (and Tevos, whom I don't believe knew about it herself until right before Shepard did) as a long-shot "what-if" plan.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is NOT "the asari." It's the tiny matriarchal clique that actually knew about it. I'd be surprised if there were more than fifteen people who were in the know, compared to the trillions-strong general asari population. The main reason I want to keep this secret, in fact, is because the BSN has amply demonstrated that way, way too many people won't be able to distinguish between a tiny few asari and the entire species, and there'd be a completely undeserved backlash.
And given that I'm still skeptical of their ability to get any information at all out of the beacon without the Cipher, I don't believe they thought they had anything useful until they decided to give it to Shepard (and Tevos, whom I don't believe knew about it herself until right before Shepard did) as a long-shot "what-if" plan.

You can get information without the Cipher.  The Cipher is only for the Reaper Warning signal, this is explained in ME.  And just because a backlash against the Asari in general may be unwarranted, animosity towards them will run high.  Especially when word about their hypocrisy gets out.

[Xilizhra]

The Cipher was also needed to get Vendetta, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was needed for a lot more. And there won't be a backlash because I'll ensure that said information never gets out.

[paul165]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is NOT "the asari." It's the tiny matriarchal clique that actually knew about it. I'd be surprised if there were more than fifteen people who were in the know, compared to the trillions-strong general asari population. The main reason I want to keep this secret, in fact, is because the BSN has amply demonstrated that way, way too many people won't be able to distinguish between a tiny few asari and the entire species, and there'd be a completely undeserved backlash.
And given that I'm still skeptical of their ability to get any information at all out of the beacon without the Cipher, I don't believe they thought they had anything useful until they decided to give it to Shepard (and Tevos, whom I don't believe knew about it herself until right before Shepard did) as a long-shot "what-if" plan.

Ah yes "no true scotsman". They represent the Asari the same way the dalatrasses represent the Salarians and I don't see anyone defending the Salarians by claiming the government doesn't represent the people.

The "tiny matriachal clique" is the asari government as much as they have one regardless their actions during the war are worthy of reproach beacon or no beacon as they proved themselves unworthy "allies" abandoning not merely Humanity but the Turians to the Reaper's tender mercies.

Maybe they aren't any worse than anyone else - hell I'd agree they probably aren't any worse the problem is they portray themselves as better which is grating at the best of times and makes their feet of clay more of a diplomatic problem for them than say the Turian bombs on Tuchanka.

Note for clarity that I am not advocating bombing Thessia or anything of that nature I just fail to see why the other races or God!Shepard would welcome let alone support any attempt at the return of Asari dominance when they have proven themselves as falliable and self interested as the other major players.

Besides I'm not in the hiding dirty laundry business if the Asari want it suppressed they can get off their pretty purple posteriors and do it themselves rather than relying on external authorities playing favourites. The same attitude most definately applies to the Salarians whilst everyone who cares knows about the relevant human (Cerberus, AIs) and Turian (doomsday devices) diplomatic faux pas.

[AresKeith]

^ so your gonna act selfish because of something the Asari government did stupid?

[Barquiel]

The VI only made itself known to Shepard because of the cipher and/or Javik. The first thing the VI does is do a time-stamp and then say "post prothean cycle confirmed". It is activated for the first time...I think that's pretty obvious.

Liara: I've studied Protheans my entire life. If I'd been shown the beacon on Thessia earlier...
EDI: You would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

[paul165]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Cipher was also needed to get Vendetta, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was needed for a lot more. And there won't be a backlash because I'll ensure that said information never gets out.

And will you also supress how they abandoned their "allies"? Or the Salarian plans to uplift the Yahg or unlease genetically engineered Varren on the galaxy?

[paul165]

AresKeith wrote...

^ so your gonna act selfish because of something the Asari government did stupid?

Who me? I just don't believe an AI god has any business playing favourites.

Or Xil?

[Xilizhra]

Ah yes "no true scotsman". They represent the Asari the same way the dalatrasses represent the Salarians and I don't see anyone defending the Salarians by claiming the government doesn't represent the people.

What I said about the salarians earlier was largely because they don't actually need any help rebuilding. Not on Sur'Kesh, anyway. I'll get to their colony worlds, but that'll take time.

The "tiny matriachal clique" is the asari government as much as they have one regardless their actions during the war are worthy of reproach beacon or no beacon as they proved themselves unworthy "allies" abandoning not merely Humanity but the Turians to the Reaper's tender mercies.

Such "abandonment" was over trivially quickly, and they were no more guilty of it than the krogan were (or even the turians).

Note for clarity that I am not advocating bombing Thessia or anything of that nature I just fail to see why the other races or God!Shepard would welcome let alone support any attempt at the return of Asari dominance when they have proven themselves as falliable and self interested as the other major players.

Their culture is the best in peacetime, which is now the only time. Okay, I was kidding there, but still, the need for standing armies should be rather reduced now. And again, the vast majority of asari didn't know about the beacon and were unable to use that as a factor when choosing their leaders.

Besides I'm not in the hiding dirty laundry business if the Asari want it suppressed they can get off their pretty purple posteriors and do it themselves rather than relying on external authorities playing favourites. The same attitude most definately applies to the Salarians whilst everyone who cares knows about the relevant human (Cerberus, AIs) and Turian (doomsday devices) diplomatic faux pas.

The asari one doesn't reflect on the asari people as a whole and it deserves to remain secret.

And will you also supress how they abandoned their "allies"? Or the
Salarian plans to uplift the Yahg or unlease genetically engineered
Varren on the galaxy?

They just joined the war slightly late... at the same time that the turians and krogan did.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

@Ieldra2

Ok I am rather curious about this...

You seem to be taking your own 'personal stance' on how Petrovsky came across to you in the comic as something your Shepard would like to be buddies with. You comment on how you don't like Aria much. Whilst I could state that you are 'metagaming', if your Shepard doesn't like Aria much, why would they help her?

I think you should be looking at yourself rather than this DLC in considering ME3 as a RPG.

Am sure I told you this at Gamescom earlier this year, I have a Shepard who really don't like Asari, to the point that he didn't go looking for Liara (until he was forced to by game mechanics, so you can't tar ME3 with the brush of 'forcing you to do something' seeing as we've had that from the first game), he didn't go to the Crescent Nebula, let alone Ilum in ME2 (and still got Miranda through the Suicide Mission safely), not took him through ME3 yet but he won't be Aria's lapdog on Citadel just to get the Merc Gangs and he won't be talking to Liara much other than when he has to.

Hell, I've got a Paragon Shep that most likely won't help Aria in her little war purely because they just wouldn't see the need (I believe she only talks about giving her forces during the DLC), whilst I've got plenty of other Sheps that will.

Now before you say that you don't 'roleplay' your characters and don't consider it integral as an RPG, well that's your opinion and your entitled to it. The fact is, as my earlier comment has pointed out 'railroaded' choices have been in the Mass Effect series from the first game, so for you to find it surprising that you possibly are only going to get the choice of killing Petrovsky and not betraying Aria for him does make me wonder why you are banging your drum about this?

As you well know, there are plenty of people that wished they could've shoved Miranda out an airlock in ME2 (yes I've used this intentionally as I know you like her  ), to quote a Rolling Stones song... "You can't always get what you want" 

Yes the game does force you to do things, but in your example with Liara, you are on the one hand ordered to find her and as well you need her expertise and her personal understanding of one of the players.  It's like saying you are being forced to play as Shepard so that you can't complain about the game forcing things upon you.  Sure, you're forced to go to the citadel at times, forced to use the Mako on certain planets, or die, forced to do a lot of things, but nowhere is this as evident as a contrivance than in ME3.  The issue for me is the idea that is often promoted of nothing being canon and that's a joke, but railroading things is canon to the extreme.  I have no problem with things being a part of the story, nor of some things being canon.  They have to be-you don't have a completely open-ended, you write it story.  I do have a problem with things (rules even) that are more played the way you could and are allowed to play them, being suddenly changed so that you have no option to continue playing the way you were allowed to play.

My examples of course would more be ending-related, but I'm not debating the ending.  I'm debating or discussing the fact that you are given certain abilities to play Shepard and give Shepard the personality that fits.  In many places throughout ME, you can't create your own choice, but you are allowed to create Shepard's opinion on the choice.  Shepard has a personality.  So do others.  Shepard, ultimately always does have to follow a course, but doesn't have to fully like it.  Again, yes I'm going to use the ending to try and make this point.  At the end, you are forced to metagame in order to "agree" with the choices, but Shepard cannot use any particular thing done even in ME3 to remain in character.  Shepard in ME1 would get rid of Saren, defeat Sovereign, and is allowed to decide certain things that are fully in character.  In ME2, the same thing and Shepard can even use the advice of others that are there-Shepard has a plethora of tools all around to use to make a decision.  But ME3 changes all of that.  Impossible is canon.  Don't even try anything else, because it won't work.  Don't debate the minutiae of all that you've done throughout the game, even though Shepard would do just that in mulling over all of the decisions made before.  The game of ME3 doesn't just require certain plot points be followed, which makes sense because you must follow the story along, a lot of it is about dialogue choice and personality, even paragon and renegade.

At the beginning, Shepard can yell at the commission, but neither retort is renegade or paragon: everything said is moronagon.  It's contrived and forced upon the player.  There's no real debate about the crucible-not from anyone.  Everyone is forced to go full idiot and not even ask what the hell the thing will do and where it came from or why they can trust it.  In fact, everything they think they know is wrong.  But, the player and Shepard and every other person in the game, is forced to accept it.

The issue here for me is not one of the game forcing certain plot direction upon you, it's forcing complete overhauls of character so as to make them unrecognizable.  I knew my Shepard in ME1 and 2.  There were parts of 3 where I saw that Shepard again, but only in the refusal speech at the end does that Shepard make her presence known in the ending.  Problem is, you are fully expected to metagame the ending unless you want a truly happier win-type one or one where Shepard remains in full character as A player COULD play Shepard-then, you are expected to just shut up and leave.  You must metagame the slides and the happily ever after.  Shepard doesn't see that, any of that.  Nor does Shepard see the time capsule in refuse/reject.

I know the OP is about Petrovsky and all, but it is merely that BW has in ME3 done more than just create a truly linear story with superfluous choices-no matter what you do, all that matters is getting enough EMS; they have changed rather dramatically the core personalities and how the player interacts with them.  There doesn't seem to be one character in ME3, that at some point does not act out of character.  The original endings were more stark in that with Joker and team just running away, but they still do that. 

My main issue with the OP, is that I don't see ME3 as representing conventional and unreflected feel-good morality.  I actually see that in order to appreciate and be left intact, one must play full on renegade.  There are no "rewards" for playing full paragon.  And as I've said the opening does not even allow for some real idea of paragon and renegade choice.  I don't even fully see paragon and renegade as being absolutes of good and evil-I see them more as thoughty (to the extreme) and hesitant, deliberative, selfless, and reckless, propelled, sometimes selfish and lacking in understanding.  Neither is fully good or fully bad.  They do more lean to one side or the other, but only when the consequences of their actions are played out.  I think the whole of ME3 creates problems for both paragon and renegade.  So, considering Petrovsky, no matter his slant on things, a paragon might say he's needed or that it is not his/her decision to make-ME1 showed that was a fully paragon consideration.  A paragon might not agree with anything Cerberus did (reasons and actions), but also might see certain of them as pawns.  A renegade might not agree with them because it detracts from the mission at hand and they are a nuisance (at best) and in the way.  A renegade might understand their motives, but feel that this is not the time for these kinds of things-internal fighting within the galaxy could wait until the reapers were taken care of.  Look at how a renegade deals with TIM at the end, even though a renegade might in my opinion, be more likely to be able to make a choice at the end or might have thought control made sense.  To me, none of the character choices matter at all in ME3.  So why, if they don't matter for Shepard, would they matter for a character in external projects who is now going to be in DLC?  Leviathan all of a sudden mattered for about an hour, and then didn't.  That's how little thought is going into this thing, so don't look for Petrovsky to make sense.

[Barquiel]

paul165 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Cipher was also needed to get Vendetta, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was needed for a lot more. And there won't be a backlash because I'll ensure that said information never gets out.

And will you also supress how they abandoned their "allies"? Or the Salarian plans to uplift the Yahg or unlease genetically engineered Varren on the galaxy?

How did they abandoned their "allies"? The asari send more war assets than the turians, salarians or the geth/quarians. They also helped human colonies before the councilor agreed to help Shepard (-> PTSD Asari Commando). I mean, did the alliance send any ships to help Thessia or Palaven?

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 novembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[AresKeith]

@Paul I meant Xil lol

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Cipher was also needed to get Vendetta, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was needed for a lot more. And there won't be a backlash because I'll ensure that said information never gets out.

And so your rule will continue the time-honored tradition of keeping things from the public for the good of a tiny cabal of influential people... and for asari dominance. I'd have thought your rule would be a little more enlightened. You disappoint me.

As I see it, I would act to contain any backlash to diplomatic means, but the information needs to go public and the asari deserve to lose standing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[Steelcan]

Down with Big Brother, down with Big Brother


Also maybe the Cipher was needed for certain parts of the beacon. Prothean tech was examined long before the Cipher was ever known to exist. You don't need it to examine most technology, but in terms of Reaper knowledge the Cipher is necessary

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Cipher was also needed to get Vendetta, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was needed for a lot more. And there won't be a backlash because I'll ensure that said information never gets out.

And so your rule will continue the time-honored tradition of keeping things from the public for the good of a tiny cabal of influential people... and for asari dominance. I'd have thought your rule would be a little more enlightened. You disappoint me.

As I see it, I would act to contain any backlash to diplomatic means, but the information needs to go public and the asari deserve to lose standing.

For the good of a tiny cabal of influential people? They're all almost certainly dead, and the beacon is destroyed. No one can accumulate any unearned gains anymore, but the vast, vast majority of the asari population didn't do anything wrong. I don't want to see them any more harmed in the wake of this war because their government did something conspiratorial, and the backlash would be wholly undeserved.

[AresKeith]

^ and thats the problem some people had with the asari after ME3, the Asari government should have shared that technology knowledge but didn't