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[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
That not everyone hates Cerberus and how evil they are is subjective.

Bioware pushed the Cerberus is mustache twirling evil thing not us. TIM being indoctrinated was a waste of a character, and potential plot line.

Because one time allies on shaky ground can't be enemies.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 This may put a wrench in the "butchered" character theory.
https://twitter.com/Omega_Cerberus


"The civilized being prizes freedom above all. Yet civilization itself is only possible through unyielding discipline."- General Petrovsky

Not really, many good people that serve in military in real life and all around world, have that kind of idea of life.

Mainly since, well, military's work that way and they are in fact own society. So they do effect people that way.

But is this a line for a mustash twisting villian made evil just to be evil?

[MisterJB]

dreman9999 wrote...
Right, because they weren't doing that in ME1 or 2.Wilson would agree they don't just randomly kill their Scientist.
Cerberus had a reason in ME3, you just don't agree with those reasons

Hell, even the army has a reason.  It's just a case we don't agree with TIM on his actions. Cerberus isan extremist group.Hech, even the codex on them says they were stockpiling on weapons and ships for years.

No, they didn't. Wilson's execution wasn't random at all. He had betrayed Cerberus and killed his coworkers.
Cerberus' reason is just fine. Control the Reapers. I'd expect them to follow this agenda and betray their allies if need be; altough I wish Bioware would have let Shepard whether he wanted to follow them or stay with the Alliance; they just went about it in a singularly stupid way. Many of the actions in ME3 were detrimental to that goal.
And the justification for all of this is: Indocrination. It was interesting the first time. Now it has become a convenient excuse for whenever Bioware needs a character to act OOC.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
That not everyone hates Cerberus and how evil they are is subjective.

Bioware pushed the Cerberus is mustache twirling evil thing not us. TIM being indoctrinated was a waste of a character, and potential plot line.

Because one time allies on shaky ground can't be enemies.

Don't HAVE to be enemies.
Reference the Krogan, Rachni, Geth, etc.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:40 .

[Skullheart]

Lizardviking wrote...

And let us not forget trying to launch a pointless coup, along with trying to sabotage the krogan/turian alliance. Both which would undermine their own agenda.

Illusive Man: I need you to go and detonate a bomb on Tuchanka
Cerberus Soldier: Will it help us to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing it?
Illusive Man: ...

Later that week

Illusive Man: I need you to go and make a coup on the Citadel.
Cerberus Soldier: The Citadel, so we can use it to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing a coup?
Illusive Man: ...
Cerberus Soldiers: Sorry boss, I don't want to question you sir but, Shouldn't we use our resources for investigation? I mean, Shepard is already giving the Reapers some distraction, so our scientists can focus about your control plants.
Illusive Man: I was poorly written and you'll do as I say.
Cerberus Soldier: Yes sir!

[General User]

dreman9999 wrote...

General User wrote...

That's very true.  There are half a dozen species and/or organizations in the MEverse that were just as, if not far better suited (particualrly in terms of lore) to fill the role of villians for ME3, including the Council itself.

That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Because, for most of the galaxy the "extremist group" is the group in power.  Because Cerberus' bad actions (such as they were and what there were of them) at least had the noble intent of securing humanity's place in the galaxy.

Sidebar - If a thing is common place, can those who do it still be considered "extremists"?

Modifié par General User, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[MisterJB]

dreman9999 wrote...
That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Cerberus is no more or less extremist than any other organization in the galaxy. What if the dalatrass had sent STG operatives to Tuchanka to ensure the Genophage wouldn't be cured?
Bioware could have written a deep and complex history about the politics of the galaxy during wartime. Instead, they chose to simply throw Cerberus at us whenever they needed an enemy to fight.

[CroGamer002]

Skullheart wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

And let us not forget trying to launch a pointless coup, along with trying to sabotage the krogan/turian alliance. Both which would undermine their own agenda.

Illusive Man: I need you to go and detonate a bomb on Tuchanka
Cerberus Soldier: Will it help us to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing it?
Illusive Man: ...

Later that week

Illusive Man: I need you to go and make a coup on the Citadel.
Cerberus Soldier: The Citadel, so we can use it to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing a coup?
Illusive Man: ...
Cerberus Soldiers: Sorry boss, I don't want to question you sir but, Shouldn't we use our resources for investigation? I mean, Shepard is already giving the Reapers some distraction, so our scientists can focus about your control plants.
Illusive Man: I was poorly written and you'll do as I say.
Cerberus Soldier: Yes sir!

Sad but true.<_<

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Cerberus is no more or less extremist than any other organization in the galaxy. What if the dalatrass had sent STG operatives to Tuchanka to ensure the Genophage wouldn't be cured?
Bioware could have written a deep and complex history about the politics of the galaxy during wartime. Instead, they chose to simply throw Cerberus at us whenever they needed an enemy to fight.

Exactly.  In ME3, Cerberus was cast as the antagonists even when there were other factions or groups on hand that were just as unsavory (and didn't need a massive character assassination to get that way) and had far more motivation to oppose Shepard.

Will "Omega" with General Petrovsky be any different?  Time will tell I suppose... but I'm not optimistic.  Personally I suspect that the only way Gen. Petrovsky will get anything like fair treatment is if another character (almost certainly TIM) is made into his whipping boy.

Modifié par General User, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[dreman9999]

General User wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Cerberus is no more or less extremist than any other organization in the galaxy. What if the dalatrass had sent STG operatives to Tuchanka to ensure the Genophage wouldn't be cured?
Bioware could have written a deep and complex history about the politics of the galaxy during wartime. Instead, they chose to simply throw Cerberus at us whenever they needed an enemy to fight.

Exactly.  In ME3, Cerberus was cast as the antagonists even when there were other factions or groups on hand that were just as unsavory (and didn't need a massive character assassination to get that way) and had far more motivation to oppose Shepard.

Will "Omega" with General Petrovsky be any different?  Time will tell I suppose... but I'm not optimistic.  Personally I suspect that the only way Gen. Petrovsky will get anything like fair treatment is if another character (almost certainly TIM) is made into his whipping boy.

No, cerberus is more extremist. Who makes sure hey stay in line? Who do they awnser to? Did they not turn away from the government that started them?


You can say all you want about the otherraces but atleast they have a way to control their under side organization. Cerberusjustdoes what ever they want and awnsers to no one.

Added, with the stg, it clear there is a split in there group and the dalatrass. Your missing the fact here that politisian like to stand in the nutral middle ground. She would not of done anthing to upset that. Cerberus does not care about that unlessit's to manipulate.

Cerberus fits the bill as the antagonist.

[dreman9999]

General User wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

General User wrote...

That's very true.  There are half a dozen species and/or organizations in the MEverse that were just as, if not far better suited (particualrly in terms of lore) to fill the role of villians for ME3, including the Council itself.

That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Because, for most of the galaxy the "extremist group" is the group in power.  Because Cerberus' bad actions (such as they were and what there were of them) at least had the noble intent of securing humanity's place in the galaxy.

Sidebar - If a thing is common place, can those who do it still be considered "extremists"?

Anything can be stated to be for noble intent. Thinking like that leads to the spanish inquisition.

The ends being just don't make the means just.

[DeathScepter]

dreman9999 wrote...

General User wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That make no sense. Why would any race or other organization be the villian over an extremist group?

Cerberus is no more or less extremist than any other organization in the galaxy. What if the dalatrass had sent STG operatives to Tuchanka to ensure the Genophage wouldn't be cured?
Bioware could have written a deep and complex history about the politics of the galaxy during wartime. Instead, they chose to simply throw Cerberus at us whenever they needed an enemy to fight.

Exactly.  In ME3, Cerberus was cast as the antagonists even when there were other factions or groups on hand that were just as unsavory (and didn't need a massive character assassination to get that way) and had far more motivation to oppose Shepard.

Will "Omega" with General Petrovsky be any different?  Time will tell I suppose... but I'm not optimistic.  Personally I suspect that the only way Gen. Petrovsky will get anything like fair treatment is if another character (almost certainly TIM) is made into his whipping boy.

No, cerberus is more extremist. Who makes sure hey stay in line? Who do they awnser to? Did they not turn away from the government that started them?


You can say all you want about the otherraces but atleast they have a way to control their under side organization. Cerberusjustdoes what ever they want and awnsers to no one.

Added, with the stg, it clear there is a split in there group and the dalatrass. Your missing the fact here that politisian like to stand in the nutral middle ground. She would not of done anthing to upset that. Cerberus does not care about that unlessit's to manipulate.

Cerberus fits the bill as the antagonist.

But People like myself and others has low tolerence for LoLStupidity and LolEvil. T.I.M. And Cerberus was one of several major Weaknesses of Mass Effect 3. So Them acting out of character is weakness. And Them having captial to suppling their troops is another thing is why many people don't want Cerberus as the Antagonist.  Keep in mind, before ME3 Cerberus was an small but elite organization. But In Retribition and ME2, They lost a lot of money due to the Turians hit all of their bases and ressurecting Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy.

[Skullheart]

Ceeberus is evil in me3 just because the devs couldn't think in a suitable enemy to fit the humanoid target role.

They were only a few cells, with good operatives. Not an army of grunts.

[MisterJB]

The tweets keep painting Petrovsky going after civillians; which he specifically forbid in Invasion; while the Talons; a bloody gang; protecting them.
It's so nonsensical it's not even funny.

[DeathScepter]

Skullheart wrote...

Ceeberus is evil in me3 just because the devs couldn't think in a suitable enemy to fit the humanoid target role.

They were only a few cells, with good operatives. Not an army of grunts.

No Kidding

[Giantdeathrobot]

Several alien races or organizations may have quite a mean streak, but that doesn't justify what Cerberus did at all, nor them opposing Shepard's alliance at every turn. The only group that does comparable experiments we know of is the STG, and in the end they break off the main Salarian forces to fight the Reapers anyway.

You could rationalize most of Cerberus's actions in ME3. Yes, it had a ultimate goal. But they still refuse to cooperate with anyone and violently oppose Shepard at every possible opportunity because TIM thinks he's got it all figured out, while in fact he really doesn't. The whole ''I did what needed to be done'' excuse could be tolerable if it actually gave results, but the only things Cerberus ever did in the whole trilogy that actually helped get things done was reviving Shepard and giving him back the Normandy, as well as pieces of information like the one leading to LotSB. Everything else, from controlling Rachni (which didn't work) to miserably failing to control Geth up to luring in refugees to create Husks, has ended in unmitigated disaster, with Shepard more often than not having to pick up the pieces. Face it, Cerberus never were actually effectual despite their lofty aspirations, from ME1 onwards. Creating and locally controlling basic husks is one hell of a far cry from taking over every single Reaper in existence. They couldn't even manage Geth, and the Reapers are far more advanced. Their plans were ruthless but just as if not more desperate than the whole Crucible business, nevermind the ethical concerns.

So cries of ''character assassination'' don't move me overmuch. Having the possibility to choose between Aria and Oleg would be nice, of course, player agency is always welcome. Pity is, Cerberus is the one organization with which player agency has little bearing. In ME2, you're with them like it or not. In ME1 and 3, you're against them like it or not. It's what I always disliked about them. It IS true, however, that they pushed their evil side in ME3 so that we would have humanoids to shoot at, there's no denying this.

[DeathScepter]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Several alien races or organizations may have quite a mean streak, but that doesn't justify what Cerberus did at all, nor them opposing Shepard's alliance at every turn. The only group that does comparable experiments we know of is the STG, and in the end they break off the main Salarian forces to fight the Reapers anyway.

You could rationalize most of Cerberus's actions in ME3. Yes, it had a ultimate goal. But they still refuse to cooperate with anyone and violently oppose Shepard at every possible opportunity because TIM thinks he's got it all figured out, while in fact he really doesn't. The whole ''I did what needed to be done'' excuse could be tolerable if it actually gave results, but the only things Cerberus ever did in the whole trilogy that actually helped get things done was reviving Shepard and giving him back the Normandy, as well as pieces of information like the one leading to LotSB. Everything else, from controlling Rachni (which didn't work) to miserably failing to control Geth up to luring in refugees to create Husks, has ended in unmitigated disaster, with Shepard more often than not having to pick up the pieces. Face it, Cerberus never were actually effectual despite their lofty aspirations, from ME1 onwards. Creating and locally controlling basic husks is one hell of a far cry from taking over every single Reaper in existence. They couldn't even manage Geth, and the Reapers are far more advanced. Their plans were ruthless but just as if not more desperate than the whole Crucible business, nevermind the ethical concerns.

So cries of ''character assassination'' don't move me overmuch. Having the possibility to choose between Aria and Oleg would be nice, of course, player agency is always welcome. Pity is, Cerberus is the one organization with which player agency has little bearing. In ME2, you're with them like it or not. In ME1 and 3, you're against them like it or not. It's what I always disliked about them. It IS true, however, that they pushed their evil side in ME3 so that we would have humanoids to shoot at, there's no denying this.

there is no jusifitation for ****** poor writting. No matter how we look at it, Cerberus as the primary humaniod enemy as of currently of ME3 is weak at best. Just useless Cannon fodder for us to shoot at.

This is from a Cerberus Fanboy.

[Eterna]

I heard a rumor that Petrovsky is so merciless that his chess pieces are made from baby seal bones.

Modifié par Eterna5, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[MegaSovereign]

Eterna5 wrote...

I heard a rumor that Petrovsky is so merciless that his chess pieces are made from baby seal bones.

I heard that he beats his mother as a hobby.

[Eterna]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I heard a rumor that Petrovsky is so merciless that his chess pieces are made from baby seal bones.

I heard that he beats his mother as a hobby.

Yeah, and on Mothers day he gave her a pack of mentos and made her drink Space Pepsi while eating them. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 27 novembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[Heimdall]

Skullheart wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

And let us not forget trying to launch a pointless coup, along with trying to sabotage the krogan/turian alliance. Both which would undermine their own agenda.

Illusive Man: I need you to go and detonate a bomb on Tuchanka
Cerberus Soldier: Will it help us to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing it?
Illusive Man: ...

Later that week

Illusive Man: I need you to go and make a coup on the Citadel.
Cerberus Soldier: The Citadel, so we can use it to control the reapers?
Illusive Man: No
Cerberus Soldier: Then why are we doing a coup?
Illusive Man: ...
Cerberus Soldiers: Sorry boss, I don't want to question you sir but, Shouldn't we use our resources for investigation? I mean, Shepard is already giving the Reapers some distraction, so our scientists can focus about your control plants.
Illusive Man: I was poorly written and you'll do as I say.
Cerberus Soldier: Yes sir!

True, but I'm going to play devil's advocate and try to come up with a reason.

Hmm, I suppose TIM was worried that Shepard would actually be able to Destroy the Reapers, thus rendering all his plans for human dominance for naught.  So crippling Shepard's Alliance would slow Shepard down long enough for his Control scheme to get off the ground.  A slight dose of indoctrination influence and I wouldn't put this past him.

The coup has always vexed me , but I've concluded that TIM couldn't care less whether Udina managed to take control.  Remember at this point the Council and the Alliance are actively impeding Cerberus operations in the galaxy.  He probably figured he could buy time for Henry Lawson to figure out indoctrination and his other operations by cutting off the head of the Council snake he could throw them into turmoil and allow him to operate in relative peace.  That's the rationalization the Reapers nudged him towards anyway.  They wanted him to do it so that they could achieve what their usual Citadel plans, seize control of the galactic nerve center.

Actually, this makes a little sense...

[MisterJB]

Eterna5 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I heard a rumor that Petrovsky is so merciless that his chess pieces are made from baby seal bones.

I heard that he beats his mother as a hobby.

Yeah, and on Mothers day he gave her a pack of mentos and made her drink Space Pepsi while eating them. 

It will be revealed that Oleg Petrovsky was the mastermind behind the First Contact War all along. That's how merciless he is.

[MegaSovereign]

He created the Genophage and then framed the Turians.

[spirosz]

MisterJB wrote...

Tetlin (Where Jack was made)

I know what Teltin is, thank you very much. And the experiments there were performed without Cerberus consent.

I'm sorry, but I still lol at the bolded.  

[Dean_the_Young]

It's not that reasons for Cerberus antagonist can't be created, it's rather that they're consistently done poorly throughout ME3, and the major actions don't further the stated goals.

In many respects, Cerberus would have been better if the 'control' plot had been dropped altogether and Cerberus simply played an exploiter-opportunist role with an eye towards the post-war. While it would still be a departure from the ME1/ME2 secretive military-industrial cabal, ME3 Cerberus actually serves a halfway-decent force in trying to affect the shape a post-Reaper, post-Destroy world: exploiting the chaos to seize assets and valuable treasures (Turian shipyards, Prothean technologies, etc), attempting to use the Reapers to level the playing field and damage the rivals, and turning various species against eachother by exploiting divisions and exposing dark secrets.

It's malevolent, antagonistic, insanely risky as it increases the chance of the Reapers winning, and to top it all off it's playing with fire... but if the Reapers are defeated it sets the conditions for a 'pro-Human' galaxy, and reduces a good number of the possible threats to Humanity post-Reapers.


Honestly, I think the entire Cerberus antagonism plot would have been much more sensible and fitting if TIM's secret knowledge was that the Crucible would destroy the Relays rather than the whole Control subplot. If Cerberus wanted the Crucible built, but to set the preparations for the post-relay galaxy, a great deal of their actions would make far more sense.