968 réponses à ce sujet

[grey_wind]

Greylycantrope wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It seemed feasible in the previous games. How do you think our Shepards established their unique and sparkling personalities?

ME1 had dialog options where Shepard said the same line no matter -which- choice was picked.

ME2 had "neutral" options which became pointless because they didn't do anything to advance Shepard's personality.

Honestly, ME3 Shepard to me had the most personality.

To YOU not everyone. I had four Shepards with fairly distinct personalities if you must know.

Man, I miss my sociopath Shepard who gleefully blew everything up and didn't care how many lives were lost if it meant victory.
Seeing her mourn over a dead kid she didn't know and apologize to the Asari councillor.....

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except the part where he doesn't employ terrorist tactics. Is saving civilians, even alien civilans, from his own soldiers a terrorist's behaviour? No.

It's the behavior of someone who has enough of a brain to use different tactics when different situations call for it. Which, I admit, is something that many terrorists IRL are not gifted with.

Oleg Petrovsky could have introduced the grey morality that was missing from ME3. This could have been a great story of the liberties of lawlessness vs the restrictions of civilization. Instead, it's just more pew pew and "look how hot Aria is. You want to help Aria, don't you?"

So, "siding with pirate slaver who would sacrifice the entirety of Omega's population out of selfishess and ambition," isn't gray morality, then? In any case, Cerberus is a fundamentally lawless, criminal organization itself and neither possesses nor deserves any respect within the rule of law. Not to mention the whole "destroying the galaxy" thing.

Then why would he save Aria? he was under direct orders to capture her alive or dead, but he refused to do so.  What possible advantage would he have in letting her go? And Cerberus is not lawless, it isn't a government it is a paramilitary organization.  They are no different than the Spectres or STG.  They are just looking out for humanity.

[Steelcan]

grey_wind wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It seemed feasible in the previous games. How do you think our Shepards established their unique and sparkling personalities?

ME1 had dialog options where Shepard said the same line no matter -which- choice was picked.

ME2 had "neutral" options which became pointless because they didn't do anything to advance Shepard's personality.

Honestly, ME3 Shepard to me had the most personality.

To YOU not everyone. I had four Shepards with fairly distinct personalities if you must know.

Man, I miss my sociopath Shepard who gleefully blew everything up and didn't care how many lives were lost if it meant victory.
Seeing her mourn over a dead kid she didn't know and apologize to the Asari councillor.....

  Made me so angry to have to apologize to her.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
So, "siding with pirate slaver who would sacrifice the entirety of Omega's population out of selfishess and ambition," isn't gray morality, then? In any case, Cerberus is a fundamentally lawless, criminal organization itself and neither possesses nor deserves any respect within the rule of law. Not to mention the whole "destroying the galaxy" thing.

No, it's f*cking Pirate of the Caribbean logic. Freedom my ass.

Oleg Petrvosky, had they not butchered his character, would have been a much better ruler for Omega than Aria. He could have brough law and order to that station. Extablish civilization in the Terminus. Again, a story of lawlesness chaotic freedom vs the order and restricted freedoms of civilization.
But that is apparently far too complicated a concept for the fans ME3 attracted.

[GreyLycanTrope]

RiouHotaru wrote...
And?

You're not going to find an RPG that will account for every single type of personality a player can come up with.  Mass Effect at least offers far more ability to choose the type of character you want to be than most.

If you're going to set it up as possible early on (which was what happened) there damn well better be a pay of or you'll get an ear full, as is the case now. RPG making 101 it's an illusion of choice not an actual choice but the illusion has to be maintained, it wasn't.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 27 novembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[ForThessia]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're not allowed to side with the terrorist general? Color me completely not shocked. Admittedly a tad satisfied, though.

[wright1978]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It seemed feasible in the previous games. How do you think our Shepards established their unique and sparkling personalities?

ME1 had dialog options where Shepard said the same line no matter -which- choice was picked.

ME2 had "neutral" options which became pointless because they didn't do anything to advance Shepard's personality.

Honestly, ME3 Shepard to me had the most personality.

To YOU not everyone. I had four Shepards with fairly distinct personalities if you must know.

And?

You're not going to find an RPG that will account for every single type of personality a player can come up with.  Mass Effect at least offers far more ability to choose the type of character you want to be than most.

In ME1/2 it did. ME3 is a shadow of its predecesssors in this regard, full of vast swathes of characterising auto-dialogue that can conflict with previous characterisation.

[Xilizhra]

Then why would he save Aria? he was under direct orders to capture her alive or dead, but he refused to do so. What possible advantage would he have in letting her go? And Cerberus is not lawless, it isn't a government it is a paramilitary organization. They are no different than the Spectres or STG. They are just looking out for humanity.

Spectres and STG don't declare war on the galaxy because they decide that they know better.

Oleg Petrvosky, had they not butchered his character, would have been a much better ruler for Omega than Aria. He could have brough law and order to that station. Extablish civilization in the Terminus. Again, a story of lawlesness chaotic freedom vs the order and restricted freedoms of civilization.
But that is apparently far too complicated a concept for the fans ME3 attracted.

Cerberus is a criminal organization itself, and has engaged in numerous far worse things than Aria's organization as a matter of course. Cerberus rule would be no different from Aria's, except for the pro-human bigotry. If you want this plotline, pit the Council against Aria.

[RiouHotaru]

wright1978 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It seemed feasible in the previous games. How do you think our Shepards established their unique and sparkling personalities?

ME1 had dialog options where Shepard said the same line no matter -which- choice was picked.

ME2 had "neutral" options which became pointless because they didn't do anything to advance Shepard's personality.

Honestly, ME3 Shepard to me had the most personality.

To YOU not everyone. I had four Shepards with fairly distinct personalities if you must know.

And?

You're not going to find an RPG that will account for every single type of personality a player can come up with.  Mass Effect at least offers far more ability to choose the type of character you want to be than most.

In ME1/2 it did. ME3 is a shadow of its predecesssors in this regard, full of vast swathes of characterising auto-dialogue that can conflict with previous characterisation.

I disagree.  But then that's basically the jist of it.

[MisterJB]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Because leaving Oleg is control of Omega was not an option.  He was giving support to TIM, why in the world would you leave him in power when he's helping the guy you're opposing?

Making TIM an enemy no matter what was already a stupid as hell move which served no purpose other than giving the players more things to shoot at that could be conveniently anywhere.
But, if TIM had to be an enemy, make Oleg what he actually was. For one, he would never accept using Indocrinated soldiers. How about instead giving him the support of many of Omega citizens whose lives were improved now that every gang was out of it? Then allow Shepard to convince him that what TIM is doing is harmfull for humanity and done. Oleg has support enough to keep Omega and use its resources to help the Alliance. The story is more complex and the DLC is thus better.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why would he save Aria? he was under direct orders to capture her alive or dead, but he refused to do so. What possible advantage would he have in letting her go? And Cerberus is not lawless, it isn't a government it is a paramilitary organization. They are no different than the Spectres or STG. They are just looking out for humanity.

Spectres and STG don't declare war on the galaxy because they decide that they know better.

Maybe they should. in ME2 who was working to stop the Collectors, stop the Reapers, was it the Council? no, Alliance? no Spectres? no, STG, no. Cerberus? Yes, they brought back Shepard and started preparing for the Reaper's arrival.  You may disagree with their methods, but they worked.  Cerberus did what they sought to do.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe they should. in ME2 who was working to stop the Collectors, stop the Reapers, was it the Council? no, Alliance? no Spectres? no, STG, no. Cerberus? Yes, they brought back Shepard and started preparing for the Reaper's arrival. You may disagree with their methods, but they worked. Cerberus did what they sought to do.

Shepard (mine, anyway) was a Spectre. And in the end, Cerberus ended in utter, abject failure... and then I did what they were going to do, better, anyway. Which I admit is kind of satisfying. Sorry about the indoctrination, TIM, but you and your toys are history's dust.

[RiouHotaru]

MisterJB wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Because leaving Oleg is control of Omega was not an option.  He was giving support to TIM, why in the world would you leave him in power when he's helping the guy you're opposing?

Making TIM an enemy no matter what was already a stupid as hell move which served no purpose other than giving the players more things to shoot at that could be conveniently anywhere.
But, if TIM had to be an enemy, make Oleg what he actually was. For one, he would never accept using Indocrinated soldiers. How about instead giving him the support of many of Omega citizens whose lives were improved now that every gang was out of it? Then allow Shepard to convince him that what TIM is doing is harmfull for humanity and done. Oleg has support enough to keep Omega and use its resources to help the Alliance. The story is more complex and the DLC is thus better.

But he wasn't improving their lives.  They were starving, and he was having to hunt down the Talons for opposing him.  What happened to Oleg on Omega was natural progression.  He learned his usual methods of handling people and situations would NOT work on Omega, and was thus forced to resort to extreme measures.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Cerberus is a criminal organization itself, and has engaged in numerous far worse things than Aria's organization as a matter of course. Cerberus rule would be no different from Aria's, except for the pro-human bigotry. If you want this plotline, pit the Council against Aria.

No, they haven't. Aria has commited murder, extorsion, slavery, drug trafficking, etc, etc for hundreds of years. The number of people she harmed is greater than Cerberus especially since Cerberus actually helps humanity.
Here is one major different a Petrovsky rule would have. He would not allow gang violence on the streets, there would be order in that station, no longer would people simply be killed in the streets. And there would be no pro-human bigotry since neither Oleg nor TIM is a bigot.

The Council should play a different role. Oleg was perfectly positioned and had the perfect character to achieve this. But Bioware just had to throw it all away in favor of shooting. I'm done with this franchise.

[MisterJB]

RiouHotaru wrote...
But he wasn't improving their lives.  They were starving, and he was having to hunt down the Talons for opposing him.  What happened to Oleg on Omega was natural progression.  He learned his usual methods of handling people and situations would NOT work on Omega, and was thus forced to resort to extreme measures.

Oleg Petrovsky was not in Omega. Only someone that looked like him.
His usual methods of handling people would have worked just fine. There are thousands of civillians in Omega who lived in fear of being killed by a gang on the street. Oleg could pursue these gangs while providing food and medical aid for the civillians of Omega who would readily approve of his actions and prefer him over Aria.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe they should. in ME2 who was working to stop the Collectors, stop the Reapers, was it the Council? no, Alliance? no Spectres? no, STG, no. Cerberus? Yes, they brought back Shepard and started preparing for the Reaper's arrival. You may disagree with their methods, but they worked. Cerberus did what they sought to do.

Shepard (mine, anyway) was a Spectre. And in the end, Cerberus ended in utter, abject failure... and then I did what they were going to do, better, anyway. Which I admit is kind of satisfying. Sorry about the indoctrination, TIM, but you and your toys are history's dust.

They did what they set out to do. Find a way to Control the Reapers.  They were  not a failure in any sense.  Personaly I think that Cerberus' control was muh more appealing than the Catalyst's version.  Put the Reapers under the rule of an actual person, not an AI.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Cerberus is a criminal organization itself, and has engaged in numerous far worse things than Aria's organization as a matter of course. Cerberus rule would be no different from Aria's, except for the pro-human bigotry. If you want this plotline, pit the Council against Aria.

No, they haven't. Aria has commited murder, extorsion, slavery, drug trafficking, etc, etc for hundreds of years. The number of people she harmed is greater than Cerberus especially since Cerberus actually helps humanity.
Here is one major different a Petrovsky rule would have. He would not allow gang violence on the streets, there would be order in that station, no longer would people simply be killed in the streets. And there would be no pro-human bigotry since neither Oleg nor TIM is a bigot.

To be fair, Sanctuary probably killed many more people than Aria ever could.  But at least those deaths were meaningful

[Xilizhra]

No, they haven't. Aria has commited murder, extorsion, slavery, drug trafficking, etc, etc for hundreds of years. The number of people she harmed is greater than Cerberus especially since Cerberus actually helps humanity.

Aria's organization existed longer than Cerberus'. If Cerberus had been allowed to exist that long... well, actually, it never would have because the Reapers would have killed them all if Cerberus had won the current war, so I suppose that train of thought is pointless.

Here is one major different a Petrovsky rule would have. He would not allow gang violence on the streets, there would be order in that station, no longer would people simply be killed in the streets. And there would be no pro-human bigotry since neither Oleg nor TIM is a bigot.

That'd last for maybe a few weeks before the other powers of the Terminus, wanting their meeting point back, would send their own armies after Oleg and wipe him out. And why would he have any qualms about using indoctrinated troops if he used adjutants?

I'm done with this franchise.

One for two so far. We can only hope to be so lucky with DA3.

Oleg Petrovsky was not in Omega. Only someone that looked like him.

Lulz. I suppose it's true what DG said once; there's no greater sin than violating headcanon.

They did what they set out to do. Find a way to Control the Reapers. 
They were  not a failure in any sense.  Personaly I think that Cerberus'
control was muh more appealing than the Catalyst's version.  Put the
Reapers under the rule of an actual person, not an AI.

Cerberus' attempt to control was doomed because they were already indoctrinated; it wasn't a viable means for them. Now, if you want to claim that Cerberus won because I used Control... well, if you want.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 novembre 2012 - 11:21 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oleg Petrovsky was not in Omega. Only someone that looked like him.

Lulz. I suppose it's true what DG said once; there's no greater sin than violating headcanon.

That Petrovsky was not the same as the Invasion Petrovsky.   His character was changed from one canonical source to another.

[N7Gold]

grey_wind wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It seemed feasible in the previous games. How do you think our Shepards established their unique and sparkling personalities?

ME1 had dialog options where Shepard said the same line no matter -which- choice was picked.

ME2 had "neutral" options which became pointless because they didn't do anything to advance Shepard's personality.

Honestly, ME3 Shepard to me had the most personality.

To YOU not everyone. I had four Shepards with fairly distinct personalities if you must know.

Man, I miss my sociopath Shepard who gleefully blew everything up and didn't care how many lives were lost if it meant victory.
Seeing her mourn over a dead kid she didn't know and apologize to the Asari councillor.....

Just because your Shepard is renegade doesn't mean he/she doesn't have no humanity. Being renegade is about doing what's right without being bound by rules or laws.

[Xilizhra]

Just because your Shepard is renegade doesn't mean he/she doesn't have no humanity. Being renegade is about doing what's right without being bound by rules or laws.

Well, to be fair, it's more often about doing what's wrong. That said, I'm very tempted to let Aria strangle Petrovsky.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
That'd last for maybe a few weeks before the other powers of the Terminus, wanting their meeting point back, would send their own armies after Oleg and wipe him out. And why would he have any qualms about using indoctrinated troops if he used adjutants?

The Alliance would have a vetted interest in keeping Omega in the hands of a human. They would support Oleg in trade for eezo, information, etc. Prblem solved.
And Petrovsky never used Adjutants. TIM did without his knowledge. In fact, he attacked Ashe for using them because they endagered the lives of everyone in Omega.
Come ME3, he is creating an army of them. Character consistency. Lulz, wad is tat?

Lulz. I suppose it's true what DG said once; there's no greater sin than violating headcanon.

You have a funny way of spelling "Character and plot consistency"

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
One for two so far. We can only hope to be so lucky with DA3.

Yes, yes. You support attrociously simplistic writing, I've known that for a while now.
I'm reaching the conclusion any form of entertainment you enjoy is definitively not worth my time.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Just because your Shepard is renegade doesn't mean he/she doesn't have no humanity. Being renegade is about doing what's right without being bound by rules or laws.

Well, to be fair, it's more often about doing what's wrong. That said, I'm very tempted to let Aria strangle Petrovsky.

Renegade is pragmatic, machiavellian. Not sociopathic.  But in ME3 the lines seemed to blur

[Nerevar-as]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oleg Petrovsky was not in Omega. Only someone that looked like him.

Lulz. I suppose it's true what DG said once; there's no greater sin than violating headcanon.

That Petrovsky was not the same as the Invasion Petrovsky.   His character was changed from one canonical source to another.

I guess that game overrules comicbook. Maybe comic Petrovsky had more to do with JJM than Walters, and the DLC writers didn´t check. Or they decided they didn´t want us sympathising more with the enemy than with the person we were helping, although after trying to justify the Reapers and triggering refuse for shooting Starbrat I find that unlikely.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 27 novembre 2012 - 11:31 .