968 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

corporal doody wrote...
you are joking right? after ME2 you thought Cerberus was ambiguous? after all the bad stuff they did in ME1? sipping on the TIM kool-aid.

Bah, Cerberus never did anything the other races haven't done ten times over for the exact same ends.

[corporal doody]

MisterJB wrote...

corporal doody wrote...
you are joking right? after ME2 you thought Cerberus was ambiguous? after all the bad stuff they did in ME1? sipping on the TIM kool-aid.

Bah, Cerberus never did anything the other races haven't done ten times over for the exact same ends.

sanctuary.....SANCTUARY!!! 


heh..i had to lol

[MisterJB]

corporal doody wrote...
sanctuary.....SANCTUARY!!! 
heh..i had to lol

Experimenting on captured sentient beings to create shock troops? The STG did it.
The presence of the Reapers easily justifies what happened on Sanctuary. Refugees that would have been a strain on humanity's ability to wage war instead become the best soldiers we have. The 11 billion on Earth take precedence.

Had Bioware been faithfull with TIM's characterization and have him deploy those troops with Shepard while working on a side project to control the Reapers, I'd have no complaints.
Unfortunately, ME3 Cerberus is wildly OOC.

[CroGamer002]

corporal doody wrote...

so he cares for his men....but they are already under the sway of an indoctrinated TIM.....that doesnt say loyalty to me (his troops i mean). If he is as great a commander as he is reported to be...he would be loved by his men ..they would follow him to the ends of the universe....regardless of what his men were told by to do byTIM.

if they were indoctrinated and rebeled against Oleg...and he didnt KNOW there was something going on before hand...then he really didnt know his troops at all. HE WAS IGNORANT.

That doesnt scream command presence to me.




you are trying to say that by Oleg being super evil..it is OOC....but you keep saying he isnt very smart. the way you are presenting him is kinda....lame tbh.




im betting on indoctrination or disillusionment....dude went to Omega to do a dirty job...but wanted to use the best intentions while doing it. EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT CERBERUS WAS DOING HE BELIEVES IN THE CAUSE....to a point.....then THings didnt go right and due to the loss of his men...he cracked down...hard.

Guess what?

This same troops that love Oleg, also love illusive Man.
He's the guy who founded Cerberus and the leader of same organization.

If Oleg starts to talk to defect from Illusive Man with nothing to back up his words, it's kinda gonna create a conflict for troops.


This isn't same situation when Shepard disobeyed Systems Alliance and Council orders to stand down and not to go to Ilos.
Shepard's entire crew already knew that if they don't go to Ilos, everything is doomed.

Oleg's troops in other hand, know jack.
Only thing they know that humanity is under attack and it's extinction is close if no action is taken.
Hence they joined Cerberus, thinking this is the best option.
And now, their commanding officer is telling them to defect from leader and founder of Cerberus.
And only thing he can offer is words.
How can they blindly trust him in that? How can they know he's telling truth, but not doing this for his own agenda or secretly surrendering to Systems Alliance?

The best case of scenario would be a civil war among his troops.
And there's no he could win it, considering Illusive Man can just send in reinforcements to assist his loyalists.


And that's with, if knows what's Illusive Man up to.
Like I said, Oleg is very isolated in Omega.

[majormajormmajor]

I thought all you Cerberus fanboys died out with the release of ME3 and Mac turning your precious organization into paper cutout villains

[CroGamer002]

majormajormmajor wrote...

I thought all you Cerberus fanboys died out with the release of ME3 and Mac turning your precious organization into paper cutout villains

Fun fact.

I never was nor I am a Cerberus fan.

[jtav]

I definitely wasn't a fan of Teltin etc, but of the ideal represented by Lazarus Cell and Invasion Petrovsky. Cerberus being humanity's way to cheat, akin to the STG. Breaking rules intended to enforce Council hegemony and creating things like EDI without atrocities. I want that group reborn.

[corporal doody]

MisterJB wrote...

corporal doody wrote...
sanctuary.....SANCTUARY!!! 
heh..i had to lol

Experimenting on captured sentient beings to create shock troops? The STG did it.
The presence of the Reapers easily justifies what happened on Sanctuary. Refugees that would have been a strain on humanity's ability to wage war instead become the best soldiers we have. The 11 billion on Earth take precedence.

Had Bioware been faithfull with TIM's characterization and have him deploy those troops with Shepard while working on a side project to control the Reapers, I'd have no complaints.
Unfortunately, ME3 Cerberus is wildly OOC.

so the ends justifies the means. It is okay to do unspeakable things so you can STOP the things you are doing to your own people from being done by someone else? Where is Xzibit when you need him?

and BW was extremely faithful with TIM. a dude with his own agenda. Spouting humanity first by any means....and not giving a damn if humanity stepped in his way.

Cerberus was bad in ME1
Cerberus was bad in ME2...though they used a filtered lens
Cerberus was bad in ME3.

[corporal doody]

Mesina2 wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

so he cares for his men....but they are already under the sway of an indoctrinated TIM.....that doesnt say loyalty to me (his troops i mean). If he is as great a commander as he is reported to be...he would be loved by his men ..they would follow him to the ends of the universe....regardless of what his men were told by to do byTIM.

if they were indoctrinated and rebeled against Oleg...and he didnt KNOW there was something going on before hand...then he really didnt know his troops at all. HE WAS IGNORANT.

That doesnt scream command presence to me.




you are trying to say that by Oleg being super evil..it is OOC....but you keep saying he isnt very smart. the way you are presenting him is kinda....lame tbh.




im betting on indoctrination or disillusionment....dude went to Omega to do a dirty job...but wanted to use the best intentions while doing it. EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT CERBERUS WAS DOING HE BELIEVES IN THE CAUSE....to a point.....then THings didnt go right and due to the loss of his men...he cracked down...hard.

Guess what?

This same troops that love Oleg, also love illusive Man.
He's the guy who founded Cerberus and the leader of same organization.

If Oleg starts to talk to defect from Illusive Man with nothing to back up his words, it's kinda gonna create a conflict for troops.


This isn't same situation when Shepard disobeyed Systems Alliance and Council orders to stand down and not to go to Ilos.
Shepard's entire crew already knew that if they don't go to Ilos, everything is doomed.

Oleg's troops in other hand, know jack.
Only thing they know that humanity is under attack and it's extinction is close if no action is taken.
Hence they joined Cerberus, thinking this is the best option.
And now, their commanding officer is telling them to defect from leader and founder of Cerberus.
And only thing he can offer is words.
How can they blindly trust him in that? How can they know he's telling truth, but not doing this for his own agenda or secretly surrendering to Systems Alliance?

The best case of scenario would be a civil war among his troops.
And there's no he could win it, considering Illusive Man can just send in reinforcements to assist his loyalists.


And that's with, if knows what's Illusive Man up to.
Like I said, Oleg is very isolated in Omega.

and very ignorant it seems.

[fiendishchicken]

Debating whether to post anything pro-cerberus, since I of course am.

and boy do I hate the alliance.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 08 novembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Jadebaby]

Ieldra2, you surprise me!

[TenmaTaro]

Let's be honest, BW is likely going to turn Petrovsky into generic villain #345. They might give us the option to betray Aria (some of the previews vaguely hint at this), but I doubt it would be in Petrovsky's favor. I hope I'm wrong.

[OblivionDawn]

He's loyal to Cerberus, which means he needs to die, simple as that.

[wright1978]

AeonFrog wrote...

Let's be honest, BW is likely going to turn Petrovsky into generic villain #345. They might give us the option to betray Aria (some of the previews vaguely hint at this), but I doubt it would be in Petrovsky's favor. I hope I'm wrong.

Very much my view. Hope i'm wrong and ME team are still capable of something other than black and white garbage. I'll tolerate contrived BS involving Aria if i get choice regarding Petrovsky and he's characterised properly.

[MisterJB]

corporal doody wrote...
so the ends justifies the means. It is okay to do unspeakable things so you can STOP the things you are doing to your own people from being done by someone else? Where is Xzibit when you need him?

Yes, the ends justifies the means. Kill millions, save billions.

and BW was extremely faithful with TIM. a dude with his own agenda. Spouting humanity first by any means....and not giving a damn if humanity stepped in his way.

Cerberus was bad in ME1
Cerberus was bad in ME2...though they used a filtered lens
Cerberus was bad in ME3.

Killing his best scientists for no rhyme or reason. Occupying colonies rather than infiltrate operatives. Dispose of Shepard rather than manipulate him. They turned a multi layered, complex character into Dr. Claw.

ME2 Cerberus:
"My blood is the same colour as yours and what I do, I
do to protect Earth, same as you. You don't like how I do it, that's
your prerogative. But there are things going on out there that you know
nothing about. Threats to the human race that no one ever hears about.
Because we stop them. There's dangers all around us and whether you like
us or not, Cerberus may be all that stands between you and the abyss."

ME3 Cerberus: "I'll get you next time Shepard, next time."

[OdanUrr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm wondering how it has come about that I react to news of ME3 DLC with trepidation instead of excitement. But here it is: I may be called to go to a place I don't care for, acting on behalf of characters I don't care for, in order to kill one of my favorite characters from the comics.

When will it end? When will ME3 stop railroading my Shepard into situations where he can't avoid acting out of character? It's been bad enough in the main game that complaints were common - can you say prologue, dream sequences and the Catalyst encounter? You'd think they've learned from it. Now I hear that there'll be an important decision - between Aria and Nyreen, two characters I don't care for, or about. And likely Petrovsky will have been retconned into the stereotypical villain's role.

Will we be able to double-cross Aria and recruit Petrovsky to our cause? He was a decent enough guy in ME:Invasion, right? Aria or Nyreen - that decision is meaningless to me compared to Petrovsky's fate. How could it not, knowing Petrovsky and Aria from the games and the books and Nyreen not at all.

If we're not getting a choice about Petrovsky, then I'll know that everywhere else in ME3 when I wanted a choice and didn't get one, when my favorite NPC came across almost like an impostor, when I got the impression that the story worshipped the conventional and unreflected feel-good morality, that that wasn't a fluke - but program. Ironically, apart from the Rannoch plot, ME3's ending might end up as the part I like best...

I remember reading a long time ago "The Defense of Kamino," featuring a brilliant Mon Cal Separatist Admiral leading an attack against Kamino shortly after the events of AOTC. He was not a villain, far from it, he truly believed that the Republic had grown corrupt and thought to bring a swift end to the civil (clone) war by striking at the source of the Republic's troops.

I bring it up because I hope that's the kind of man this Petrovsky is, not some caricaturesque villain but someone who's also trying to bring an end to the Reapers and simply has not been offered another viable alternative. Hopefully, Shepard can be the one to show him a different path.

[fiendishchicken]

OblivionDawn wrote...

He's loyal to Cerberus, which means he needs to die, simple as that.

Miranda was loyal to Cerberus. Jacob and Brynn were loyal to Cerberus. Shepard, if you choose in ME2, was loyal to Cerberus. Do they need to die?

I wouldn't go so far as to say I was 100% loyal to them, but I did express interest in joining them after the Collector Base mission to Miranda. Of course I burned that bridge when I blew up the Collector Base.

To be honest, Cerberus is more of the shadow of the alliance anyway. Where do they get a lot of funding, or support, or resources? The alliance. Cerberus is meant to serve as a quiet supplement to the alliance. That's how TIM intended it. I don't think their was ever a 'overthrow the alliance' agenda, at least not until Reaper tech got involved. 

To ensure the survival and continued relevance of humanity in an increasingly diverse universe. I can respect their goals and motivations, if not their methods.

[corporal doody]

MisterJB wrote...

corporal doody wrote...
so the ends justifies the means. It is okay to do unspeakable things so you can STOP the things you are doing to your own people from being done by someone else? Where is Xzibit when you need him?

Yes, the ends justifies the means. Kill millions, save billions.

Sounds about right. That is messed up Cerberus logic.

and BW was extremely faithful with TIM. a dude with his own agenda. Spouting humanity first by any means....and not giving a damn if humanity stepped in his way.

Cerberus was bad in ME1
Cerberus was bad in ME2...though they used a filtered lens
Cerberus was bad in ME3.

Killing his best scientists for no rhyme or reason. Occupying colonies rather than infiltrate operatives. Dispose of Shepard rather than manipulate him. They turned a multi layered, complex character into Dr. Claw. TIM had no problems letting his scientist die in ME2 either. everytime Shep showed up somewhere all the Cerberus operatives/scientist were dead.....workplace hazard i guess....comes with the territory.

ME2 Cerberus:
"My blood is the same colour as yours and what I do, I
do to protect Earth, same as you. You don't like how I do it, that's
your prerogative. But there are things going on out there that you know
nothing about. Threats to the human race that no one ever hears about.
Because we stop them. There's dangers all around us and whether you like
us or not, Cerberus may be all that stands between you and the abyss."

ME3 Cerberus: "I'll get you next time Shepard, next time."
blame it on the diminished mental capacity. He gots da dumber as he got more indoctrinated.

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 novembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[MisterJB]

corporal doody wrote...
Sounds about right. That is messed up Cerberus logic.

That is common logic.

TIM had no problems letting his scientist die in ME2 either. everytime Shep showed up somewhere all the Cerberus operatives/scientist were dead.....workplace hazard i guess....comes with the territory.

Yes, workplace hazard. Working for Cerberus is dangerous.
But there is a world of difference between casualties or sacrificing a few for the greater good and ordering your own people shot when they finish a good job for no reason whatsoever other than "I'm evil. Muahaha".

blame it on the diminished mental capacity. He gots da dumber as he got more indoctrinated.

I do blame it on dminished mental capacity. Bioware's.

[garrusfan1]

Uh what so if you don't get to decide one persons fate that hasn't even been in the game yet (only in comics is what I meant) you will hate bioware and Mass effect forever. Gotta say that is pretty demanding and a little ridiculous I mean we didn't decide if TIM lived or if mordin could cure the genophage and live so why don't you hate them for that. Look bioware and mass effect have their problems but what your basing your hate on is ridiculous.

[3DandBeyond]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm wondering how it has come about that I react to news of ME3 DLC with trepidation instead of excitement. But here it is: I may be called to go to a place I don't care for, acting on behalf of characters I don't care for, in order to kill one of my favorite characters from the comics.

When will it end? When will ME3 stop railroading my Shepard into situations where he can't avoid acting out of character? It's been bad enough in the main game that complaints were common - can you say prologue, dream sequences and the Catalyst encounter? You'd think they've learned from it. Now I hear that there'll be an important decision - between Aria and Nyreen, two characters I don't care for, or about. And likely Petrovsky will have been retconned into the stereotypical villain's role.

Will we be able to double-cross Aria and recruit Petrovsky to our cause? He was a decent enough guy in ME:Invasion, right? Aria or Nyreen - that decision is meaningless to me compared to Petrovsky's fate. How could it not, knowing Petrovsky and Aria from the games and the books and Nyreen not at all.

If we're not getting a choice about Petrovsky, then I'll know that everywhere else in ME3 when I wanted a choice and didn't get one, when my favorite NPC came across almost like an impostor, when I got the impression that the story worshipped the conventional and unreflected feel-good morality, that that wasn't a fluke - but program. Ironically, apart from the Rannoch plot, ME3's ending might end up as the part I like best...

You've kind of hit the nail on the head here, though of course you know I don't agree with your last statement.  I will confess I have no real interest in the books and other stuff BW has put out-only ever got redemption and I can't say that was well done.  I've read synopses for a lot of this and read about deception and the complaints about that-but then Casey Hudson just loved it, even though it abandoned a lot of what was known about the MEU prior to it.

Your concern here though is well-founded.  I firmly believe that ME3 was considered by at least one person to be the last ME anything at one point.  The books would come out as would other things pre-ending, but that was it.  Along with that there's been a persistent trashing of the characters in the game, often in favor of some newer ones.  I mean you can even take TIM and say, he had some ill thought but not altogether horrible reasons for doing what he did prior to ME3.  Heck, he didn't want to control Shepard even, but then he becomes this arch-nemesis, mustache-twirling, tie a woman to the railroad tracks sort of villain and elevates Cerberus to this level, second only (and sometimes first) to the reapers themselves.  TIM was deeper than that.  He had been a hero and it seems so unauthentic to devolve him in that way, to me.  It just happens and then he creates husks.

One could say that ME2 started us down the path of Shepard acting out of character, at the very point of resurrection, but I don't agree.  All throughout Shepard was able to distance him/herself from the harsher ideology of Cerberus, until the Arrival.  In that, you're unable to make a real choice.  The only thing you can try to do is warn the Batarians.  This is the prologue for ME3 and all of what happens next.  It's the biggest change to Shepard within the games until later on.  I fully understand it was set up to be this way and that's what I have a problem with-in every other instance, there's an ability to question the decision and see if there's another way that works with your Shepard's character.  That was what ME did best, gave you choices.  And that's what they most abuse here and in ME3.  The idea of real choices.  It's kind of what I've been trying to say all along.  I didn't want to be railroaded into either super happy or super sad or anything that didn't seem authentic as to what was happening all along.  It's the idea that, no matter what, you really only have 3 extremely limited choices at the end, where I don't think choices should exist, and meaningless ones that occur before.  I wanted something different from what someone else got, but we all get the same thing. 

[Someone With Mass]

It must've been completely impossible for TIM and his merry gang of degenerates to install security backups or send in drones/mechs before the scientists to avoid indoctrination or other traps.

They must really hate common sense.

[jtav]

It's more that Petrovsky is the last straw. I am sick of watching characters I like get mangled. I am sick of a story that doesn't let me decide what to think, but must be forever shouting in my ear. I am sick of the pursuit of excellence and advancement being painted as a villainous trait. I am sick of the naked appeals to emotion.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It must've been completely
impossible for TIM and his merry gang of degenerates to install security
backups or send in drones/mechs before the scientists to avoid
indoctrination or other traps.

They must really hate common sense.

Any
mistake made by Cerberus in the handle of Reaper technology has no
bearing on the inherent difference between ocupational hazards and
pointless executions.

jtav wrote...

It's more that Petrovsky is the last straw. I am sick of watching characters I like get mangled. I am sick of a story that doesn't let me decide what to think, but must be forever shouting in my ear. I am sick of the pursuit of excellence and advancement being painted as a villainous trait. I am sick of the naked appeals to emotion.

I make mine jtav's words.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

It's more that Petrovsky is the last straw. I am sick of watching characters I like get mangled. I am sick of a story that doesn't let me decide what to think, but must be forever shouting in my ear. I am sick of the pursuit of excellence and advancement being painted as a villainous trait. I am sick of the naked appeals to emotion.

Yes camel's back is in severe danger of breaking.