156 réponses à ce sujet

[Fawx9]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

That's not really what I was getting at, I think .

What I was trying to say is that things like new squadmates/ new permanent hubs are things that I believe(guessing) are normally known to developers at a certain point in the development cycle of a DLC. And therefore they know when it wont happen.

If they then start to see that there is a whole bunch of people bascially reassuring themselves and others that they are getting a non existent feature, wouldn't it be better to come in and say "That would be a cool idea, but it just isn't in the cards for this"?

They recoginze certain features players want, while also curtailing the wanton speculation that can at times set skewed expectations.

Okay, I get you. Here is where we enter a grey area where I don't have any information or past experience to go by. I don't know the best way to handle this type of situation. On the one hand, yes, it would be better for the fanbase to know that certain beloved or much-anticipated features will definitely not be in the final game. On the other hand, that might be providing far too much information or, worse yet, not enough information. So the fans will get to speculating and freaking out again anyway.

Honestly, I think the devs are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Well to me i guess it depends on the feature. Something techincal, in my mind, such as a new squad mate(not the story of them eg romance), would be something that you could try to confirm or deny.

If I go by a certain super popular MMO there are the same features that always seemed to be requested (player housing, model updates, dyes) and moderators would usually step in if the topic garnered enough fanbase support to warrant a calming down period. Bascially saying "cool, but not now, maybe soon ™"

Those situations may be  easier though as they already have a dev response from a few months back that they just need to double check before reiterating the stance. Cause I've seen even more features than that requested or specualted on that simply get no response by the same people. So ya, I can see your conundrum.

Modifié par Fawx9, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[FlamingBoy]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kanaris wrote...

I Personally think it's better to not give out ANY information about a new game and/or DLC till the month of release. This was what happened with ME3 the fans were told things about the game far in advance of the games release and when it finally was what people got was not what they were told they were getting and it understandably pissed many people off.

how so?

Considering all DLC thus far, it has been pretty clear-cut and the fans did get what they were told. 

pre-release developer quotes

I got something else entirely

[LinksOcarina]

FlamingBoy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kanaris wrote...

I Personally think it's better to not give out ANY information about a new game and/or DLC till the month of release. This was what happened with ME3 the fans were told things about the game far in advance of the games release and when it finally was what people got was not what they were told they were getting and it understandably pissed many people off.

how so?

Considering all DLC thus far, it has been pretty clear-cut and the fans did get what they were told. 

pre-release developer quotes

I got something else entirely

Can you show me the quotes?

Although to be honest, pre-release quotes are all about hyperbole and hype. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Versus Omnibus]

Thanks Ninja, even though I was hoping an official from Bioware to show up, your response is equally as helpful. It's just the DA3 team and ME3's Multiplayer team have been more engaged with the community while Edmonton's team seems so silent. Like when I asked Derek about the chances of Rachni being included as a playable kit he told me it would be too difficult to do so. But when I ask somebody from the SP side over something like the Raloi I get nothing but crickets.

I joined this forum because I heard nothing but praise about Bioware's deep interactions with their fans, but so far I haven't seen it.

[Ithurael]

Ninja Stan wrote...

BioWare allows for all kinds of speculation because otherwise they would be confirming or denying all kinds of things all the time. Once the community sees that a developer has officially confirmed or denied one thing, they have the expectation that it's open season for everyone to ask about their own pet feature/idea/suggestion and get an official response.

The sheer number of individual "Is X going to be in the next game?" or "Is the next game going to feature Y?" questions would bury the devs.

So, devs are very selective in what they answer and how they answer. Even then, as evidenced in the DA3 forum, people will pick apart the dev's response, and unless it specifically mentions something as being in or not being in, fans will continue to speculate and freak out. "OMG, they said elves would be in but said nothing about dwarves! Why aren't dwarves in the game, BioWare? Why do you hate dwarves? See, everyone, BioWare discriminates against short people!" I exaggerate for comedic effect, but David Gaider has commented on that sort of thing recently on the DA3 forum.

The community must learn to be patient, for one thing, and to ask better questions for another. Then they need to be able to accept the answers given without freaking out or acting like the responses are a personal affront to one's play style or preferences. They are developing a videogame, not necessarily your videogame. Once all of that happens, you can expect devs to be less hesitant about discussing things with the community.

It would be great - for the sake of putting some ghosts to rest - if the devs told us that there will be no more post-ending dlc or priority earth change. The only reason I really am getting into these DLCs is for the blind hope that the puzzle theory is true.

A lot of other fans are buying dlc and staying loyal to bioware on the premise that there is something more to come after the breath scene. If the devs can give a straight yes/no I am sure that would be appreciated all around.

Post breath DLC in the pipe/ever
Priority earth revamp in the pipe/ever

It just sucks that the only ending I actually like leaves the protagonist in a pile of rubble with no closure except what I can imagine.

[LinksOcarina]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Thanks Ninja, even though I was hoping an official from Bioware to show up, your response is equally as helpful. It's just the DA3 team and ME3's Multiplayer team have been more engaged with the community while Edmonton's team seems so silent. Like when I asked Derek about the chances of Rachni being included as a playable kit he told me it would be too difficult to do so. But when I ask somebody from the SP side over something like the Raloi I get nothing but crickets.

I joined this forum because I heard nothing but praise about Bioware's deep interactions with their fans, but so far I haven't seen it.

You came at a bad time, a lot of the people around here are just cynical now a days. 

[Kanaris]

Maybe Cynic is to strong a word at this junction at release i'd have said that was spot on now days people are more pessimistic then cynical so to Quote an ME character.

ASHLEY WILLIAMS: A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist..

[Fawx9]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Sanity Cut

Honestly I think its differen't.

In Javik's case you had the whole day1 DLC controversy where his character was in game, just his level wasn't. You could unlock him through the game editor which added fuel to the fire.

In this case, expecations were left to grow unchecked where groups of people began to think and expressing that we had a shot at getting a new permanent hub world/character out of this, mostly technical things. Saying that you aren't getting that is not the same as revelaing huge story plots like saying you can have a prothean squadmate. It's also known a lot earlier than 1 month from release of the DLC.

And yet, the reaction is the same regardless of what happens. Even with Javik, if you can unlock a shell of a character for missions to use in your game, its still not complete and it is still not a character cut from the game on purpose. As for this case, the expectations were there because the fans thought they were there; like how a lot of fans expect the ending to be changed again somehow when it was stated that it wouldn't be. 

Even if BioWare came out and said three months ago no DLC will add permanent squadmates or a hub, then with this announcement of what we learned today it would be the same exact discussion. There is no way to get around that. 

Really?

I would think it might help.

I know everyone was dissapointed when the article came out saying there was no planned Harby DLC yet, but it did stop most of the speculation regarding him showing up at Omega with the Collectors. Had that continued till today, I feel the fallout would have been much worse, especially when some feel that MP gets all the cool things.

Sure it might suck short term, but I think it would help in the long run to curtail expectations getting crushed just before a release.

Modifié par Fawx9, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:22 .

[Versus Omnibus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Thanks Ninja, even though I was hoping an official from Bioware to show up, your response is equally as helpful. It's just the DA3 team and ME3's Multiplayer team have been more engaged with the community while Edmonton's team seems so silent. Like when I asked Derek about the chances of Rachni being included as a playable kit he told me it would be too difficult to do so. But when I ask somebody from the SP side over something like the Raloi I get nothing but crickets.

I joined this forum because I heard nothing but praise about Bioware's deep interactions with their fans, but so far I haven't seen it.

You came at a bad time, a lot of the people around here are just cynical now a days. 

Which is the other reason I don't hang out in the Story Forums anymore....

Anyway, thanks again NS.

[FlamingBoy]

LinksOcarina wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kanaris wrote...

I Personally think it's better to not give out ANY information about a new game and/or DLC till the month of release. This was what happened with ME3 the fans were told things about the game far in advance of the games release and when it finally was what people got was not what they were told they were getting and it understandably pissed many people off.

how so?

Considering all DLC thus far, it has been pretty clear-cut and the fans did get what they were told. 

pre-release developer quotes

I got something else entirely

Can you show me the quotes?

Although to be honest, pre-release quotes are all about hyperbole and hype. 

theres around 10-11, and while i agree that they are around hyperbole and hype developers are still responsible for them and should accept responsibility for them


http://social.biowar.../index/10056886
not all of these are relevant but there is only a limited effort I am willing to make

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

That's not really what I was getting at, I think .

What I was trying to say is that things like new squadmates/ new permanent hubs are things that I believe(guessing) are normally known to developers at a certain point in the development cycle of a DLC. And therefore they know when it wont happen.

If they then start to see that there is a whole bunch of people bascially reassuring themselves and others that they are getting a non existent feature, wouldn't it be better to come in and say "That would be a cool idea, but it just isn't in the cards for this"?

They recoginze certain features players want, while also curtailing the wanton speculation that can at times set skewed expectations.

Okay, I get you. Here is where we enter a grey area where I don't have any information or past experience to go by. I don't know the best way to handle this type of situation. On the one hand, yes, it would be better for the fanbase to know that certain beloved or much-anticipated features will definitely not be in the final game. On the other hand, that might be providing far too much information or, worse yet, not enough information. So the fans will get to speculating and freaking out again anyway.

Honestly, I think the devs are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Well even then, it's better for devs to come online and discuss things with us then not say anything at all. One of the reasons why the ME3 boards are so negative (not including the endings, Allers, or Tali's face) is because really the only activity we get from bioware are mods like you locking down threads with the occasional short response once every several weeks, no offense intended Mr. Woo. But if you look between the ME3 multiplay forums and the DA3 forums, where bioware activity and participation is high, you'll notice that things there are a lot more positive then in the ME3 story discussion board. I, along with a handful of others would greatly appreciate a gesture like that. 

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Dominus]

And it's not that I don't get that there are very justifiable reasons for this as well - the message boards on here are viewed as highly volatile and the average developer has a harder chance of finding worthwhile feedback.

Even if a developer posts a "yes, this is in", it's merely a "known" feature a la Phaedon's Thread. Development can change over time, and nothing's necessarily set in stone. Devs can still participate in discussions without having to deny/confirm a subject.

My point, ultimately, is that this is a vicious cycle. Fans anger developers, vice versa, developers have less incentive to come here, and fans become more butthurt.The Horton/WhoVille relationship doesn't sound like the healthiest to me.

Honestly, I think the devs are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Yeah, there's not really a 'right' answer at the end of the day. 

Modifié par DominusVita, 08 novembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Ninja Stan wrote...

BioWare allows for all kinds of speculation because otherwise they would be confirming or denying all kinds of things all the time. Once the community sees that a developer has officially confirmed or denied one thing, they have the expectation that it's open season for everyone to ask about their own pet feature/idea/suggestion and get an official response.

The sheer number of individual "Is X going to be in the next game?" or "Is the next game going to feature Y?" questions would bury the devs.

So, devs are very selective in what they answer and how they answer. Even then, as evidenced in the DA3 forum, people will pick apart the dev's response, and unless it specifically mentions something as being in or not being in, fans will continue to speculate and freak out. "OMG, they said elves would be in but said nothing about dwarves! Why aren't dwarves in the game, BioWare? Why do you hate dwarves? See, everyone, BioWare discriminates against short people!" I exaggerate for comedic effect, but David Gaider has commented on that sort of thing recently on the DA3 forum.

The community must learn to be patient, for one thing, and to ask better questions for another. Then they need to be able to accept the answers given without freaking out or acting like the responses are a personal affront to one's play style or preferences. They are developing a videogame, not necessarily your videogame. Once all of that happens, you can expect devs to be less hesitant about discussing things with the community.

Yeah right. Get off the high horse, please. So the community has to learn to behave so that the company can do a better job with their information policy? Surely not, dear Sir!

And what's the deal about people wanting more details when some details are being given? Why is that a bad thing? People always want more information than what can be give at a time. If your company can't handle that you are really in a very sorry state.

And why is it that people are happily twittering their comings and goings but can't be bothered to show up at the official forums? Why the discrepancey here?

And there's another thing. Yes, people are angry at BioWare. But you realize a big chunk is because of the bad hyping before release, right? So your bad information policy got you into the mess in the first place. And now you have the nerves to say WE should behave?

ts ts ts

[xsdob]

I would love for maybe once a month or so, a dev coms on and makes a thread that acts as sorta of a town hall, open discussion between fans and the devs.

Sort of like what happened in the mp thread where bryan johnson made a thread that basically talked to the fans and answered their questions.

[Kanaris]

They probably would but those of us who can remain civil would get overshadowed by the ones who show up just to hate on the devs and they know this so they don't bother.

[macrocarl]

BSN can get real crazy and pick apart literally anything they say. The atmosphere and nerd rage on this forum would have to change drastically. I don't blame the devs one bit for keeping mum. Also, not sure if this was mentioned (didn't read every response) but folks here come up with all sorts of crazy questions. They'd have to be on here denying and confirming stuff as a FT job. I'd rather them stick to making DLC.

[Ninja Stan]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Yeah right. Get off the high horse, please. So the community has to learn to behave so that the company can do a better job with their information policy? Surely not, dear Sir!

It's this sort of attitude that is keeping the developers you want to talk to, from engaging with you. Feeling entitled to answers, insulting those who are providing answers, insulting the company? That's supposed to demonstrate that you want to have a respectful discussion with developers?

And what's the deal about people wanting more details when some details are being given? Why is that a bad thing?

It's not. People are naturally curious, especially about games they're passionate about, especially when the game is still in development.

People always want more information than what can be give at a time. If your company can't handle that you are really in a very sorry state.

Developers are people too, and they generally don't like dealing with a group of people who insult them, swear at them, yell at them, or call for them to be fired just because the people don't like a videogame. "If the fans can't handle that, they are really in a very sorry state." See what I did there?

A company's default "information policy" is press releases. BioWare has always believed in more personal, close interaction with their fans and that is reflected in their participation in discussions in their online community and with fans at conventions. Because fans know they are being listened to, some of them kind of take BioWare for granted, believing that BioWare will answer any and all questions or address all concerns to those fans' satisfaction. This is, of course, incorrect, since both the ME and DA teams have been active on the BSN.

And why is it that people are happily twittering their comings and goings but can't be bothered to show up at the official forums? Why the discrepancey here?

Developers post what they like from their personal Twitter accounts. They also participate (or not participate) in the BSN discussions. Developers are not obligated to do either, but they are free to. There is no discrepancy.

And there's another thing. Yes, people are angry at BioWare. But you realize a big chunk is because of the bad hyping before release, right? So your bad information policy got you into the mess in the first place. And now you have the nerves to say WE should behave?

Yes, because I am a Moderator and a former developer who participated in discussions here. Are you saying you have a right to violate the forum rules because something BioWare did made you angry or upset? And that they owe you some kind of explanation or apology because you didn't like one of their games?

[Jos Hendriks]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
...

And why is it that people are happily twittering their comings and goings but can't be bothered to show up at the official forums? Why the discrepancey here?'

...

The reason is two-fold.
One: My twitter account is my personal account. I'm connected to friends and family with it, and co-workers and whoever wants to follow me. I may occasionally tweet about work-related things, but that doesn't mean it's a work-centric account, or managed from a work perspective.
Two: People here read the forums. Not everyone, not all the time, but we do. Reading the forums versus posting in the forums are 2 vastly different things, however. Anything I post in here I post using my official work account, which means whatever I write will be scrutinized because it's official, and formulating posts takes time.

Additionally, time plays a major factor. When Retaliation came out I spent an hour and a half each morning for a week reading replies and answering questions about the hazard levels and things. That is an hour and a half of my day for a couple replies. It worked out then, but most of the time most of the people here have a lot of work to do, and getting work done gets priority over responding in forum threads. Even this response is taking me about 10 minutes to write that I could've spent finishing logic work so I can go home on time. You can trust that we read these forums though.

I hope that answers your question.

Modifié par Jos Hendriks, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:19 .

[Rynocerous]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

BioWare allows for all kinds of speculation because otherwise they would be confirming or denying all kinds of things all the time. Once the community sees that a developer has officially confirmed or denied one thing, they have the expectation that it's open season for everyone to ask about their own pet feature/idea/suggestion and get an official response.

The sheer number of individual "Is X going to be in the next game?" or "Is the next game going to feature Y?" questions would bury the devs.

So, devs are very selective in what they answer and how they answer. Even then, as evidenced in the DA3 forum, people will pick apart the dev's response, and unless it specifically mentions something as being in or not being in, fans will continue to speculate and freak out. "OMG, they said elves would be in but said nothing about dwarves! Why aren't dwarves in the game, BioWare? Why do you hate dwarves? See, everyone, BioWare discriminates against short people!" I exaggerate for comedic effect, but David Gaider has commented on that sort of thing recently on the DA3 forum.

The community must learn to be patient, for one thing, and to ask better questions for another. Then they need to be able to accept the answers given without freaking out or acting like the responses are a personal affront to one's play style or preferences. They are developing a videogame, not necessarily your videogame. Once all of that happens, you can expect devs to be less hesitant about discussing things with the community.

Yeah right. Get off the high horse, please. So the community has to learn to behave so that the company can do a better job with their information policy? Surely not, dear Sir!

And what's the deal about people wanting more details when some details are being given? Why is that a bad thing? People always want more information than what can be give at a time. If your company can't handle that you are really in a very sorry state.

And why is it that people are happily twittering their comings and goings but can't be bothered to show up at the official forums? Why the discrepancey here?

And there's another thing. Yes, people are angry at BioWare. But you realize a big chunk is because of the bad hyping before release, right? So your bad information policy got you into the mess in the first place. And now you have the nerves to say WE should behave?

ts ts ts

Your entire post is defeated by the simple fact that no one is going to be satisfied by everything. If they post that Aria isn't going to be a permanent squadmate the minute they announce the DLC, they get accused of not listening. If they say it's because it makes zero sense for a Terminus warlord to accompany Shepard, let alone take his orders, then they get told the DLC sucks and BW isn't listening.

There's a lot of legitimate discussion in the thread about how BW should approach this, and a lot of good feedback from the Moderator about why it sounds good on paper and doens't work in practice. The DA3 forums are full of people extrapolating the most redonkulous things already. 

Not agreeing with the direction BW is taking is no reason to insult the mods. Very few video game companies give any meaningful details at any rate, and for us to get much of anything beyond teasers is not the norm. But the Twitter comment is what seals it for me.

You are, quite frankly, a illogical, irrational, and overly demanding person who clearly is not thinking before they bother to defecate all over the forums, and it's people like that is WHY Bioware won't communicate with us anymore. Please go waste money on some cupcakes and let people have a calm rational discussion.

[David7204]

Kanaris wrote...

They probably would but those of us who can remain civil would get overshadowed by the ones who show up just to hate on the devs and they know this so they don't bother.

When I posted an explanation as to why the wrong weapons appear in cutscenes...(4 hours ago)

Kanaris wrote...

no one said the weapons thing was a bug it was sheer laziness on their part or they were so rushed to get it released they skipped setting it right

Modifié par David7204, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Chala]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

 Even this response is taking me about 10 minutes to write that I could've spent finishing logic work so I can go home on time. You can trust that we read these forums though.

Well... Look what we have here, a lazy worker who likes to spend time on the internet instead of doing what he is asked to.
I'm disappointed with this behavior of yours.

Modifié par El_Chala_Legalizado, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Kanaris]

Your Point David? I at no time during that post was uncivil I did not threaten or hate on anyone specific at BW as most of the flamers/trolls like to do I stated two possible reasons for it either A: laziness or B: they were rushed and skipped setting the models for each and every weapon.

Modifié par Kanaris, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[David7204]

First of all, you're wrong. It has very little to do with setting the models.

Secondly, making ridiculous accusations like 'sheer laziness' based on nothing but your own incompetent understanding of an industry-wide issue seems to quality to me as being uncivil.

[Kanaris]

whatever what you just did there was uncivil as well so don't go calling me uncivil when you are as well hypocrite

Modifié par Kanaris, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[spirosz]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Thanks Ninja, even though I was hoping an official from Bioware to show up, your response is equally as helpful. It's just the DA3 team and ME3's Multiplayer team have been more engaged with the community while Edmonton's team seems so silent. Like when I asked Derek about the chances of Rachni being included as a playable kit he told me it would be too difficult to do so. But when I ask somebody from the SP side over something like the Raloi I get nothing but crickets.

I joined this forum because I heard nothing but praise about Bioware's deep interactions with their fans, but so far I haven't seen it.

It's still here, it's jut buried under the rage, which is understandable, as I do miss it, but again, I am one of the many, that was very dissapointed with how they handled ME3 and there general releases for the past few years.  ME3 was a breaking point for a lot of people to rage.  

I'm really curious to see how future titles hold up.  

Modifié par spirosz, 09 novembre 2012 - 03:12 .