27 réponses à ce sujet

[Nighthirster]

 Hey everybody,

I'm not sure if this is allowed on these forums - so please forgive me if its not. I think its fair to say many RPG enthusiasts are saddened by the lack of multi-player RPGs which allow custom content and persistant worlds. Recently, I came across this kickstarter project:

http://www.kickstart...eneris?ref=live

 
I would encourage you guys to watch the presentation video in its entirety - it's very exciting stuff ! The technology used is awesome, and their toolset is really amazing. Its entirely procedurally generated, so when you create an area you don't have to paint every single little rock, it will actually automatically a path for example and you can edit it however you want !

The combat is also very impressive, especially that the whole game engine was pretty much built from scratch. Anyway, take a look, and if you like, make sure you make some noise on their forums to encourage them - or better yet, contribute to the kickstarter .

http://www.baremettl...orums/index.php

[Pearls]

from how i read the faq its primarily a single player game with a toolset not planned for public use and no further modding planned, it still looks interesting though

Modifié par Pearls, 08 novembre 2012 - 06:45 .

[kamal_]

What Pearls said.

[Nighthirster]

Its still early stage - they are considering multiplayer as well as releasing a full toolset. The fact is they created a ton of tools to streamline the development process given the small size of their team. Currently, they're very much open to feedback, which is why I suggest making your voices heard on their forums .

[Alupinu]

Yeah... What Pearl said.

[NWN_baba yaga]

then i dont get it. A toolset not available to modders ehh? ok whatever:D

And sorry, but to support a Team I have no clue about who they are, what each members references are in gaming business or modding in general is nothing where i throw my money at...

edit:
after looking at the screenshots (which are nice) and the video i dont support this thing. Kickstarter seems to mislead some people thinking it´s the money only that makes the magic for game development. When you want to raise some interest you shouldnt show empty dungeon rooms with basic furniture w/o any kind of "cool" or mystic ambience that makes the viewer wonder...uhm yeah... thats looks scary you know?

It´s all to basic, nice but very basic.

I dont hope that modding or game development at this level becomes trough kickstarter a money making idiologic rather then the passion that drives peoples creativity forward. Well, maybe i´m totaly wrong and they can surprise me next time with an update that blows me away:)

p.s. I´m editing like mad!!!

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 08 novembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Nighthirster]

Haha you guys are a tough crowd! Honestly just drop by the forum and you'll see for yourself, the engine from the ground up is the work of a single guy - the team leader, and they're very much in touch with their community.

http://www.baremettl...orums/index.php

I say give it a chance, I'm not seeing any NWN-like games coming out anytime soon, so this may be worth some consideration .

[PlasmaJohn]

Nighthirster wrote...

Its still early stage - they are considering multiplayer ...

Multiplayer is not a bolt-on.  It has to be part of the core design and must be considered in every feature proposal (impact of the feature on MP and impact of MP on the feature).  Failure to do this up front makes success vanishingly small.  It also virtually guarantees one or more crippling exploits.

[NWN_baba yaga]

@Nightthirster
nothing against the enthusiasm and the willpower of these developers but i stand my word on my doubt how they showcase their project without a big reference in their backpack. I wish them good luck and let me surprise in the future but i know many projects (mods btw.) that started out great and vanished into oblivion. And i dont think anyone can reproduce what nwn has to offer, the whole thing is pure magic:)

p.s. when you read the very old interviews with the nwn devs you realize how much MP has effected the whole process...that includes the walkmesh system and the whole lighting/ shadows etc.

I´m not a fanatic when it comes to graphics but as an example. The first 3 screenshots of the Witcher convinced me that this thing will be great. And then they released another bunch of screens month later and i was absolutely sure. These images alone already told a story with the authenticy of the medieval look. And we know what game it is.
 

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Nighthirster]

@PlasmaJohn

Multiplayer isn't a bolt on or an add-on at this point - what they have is a pretty darn cool game engine developed from the ground up which includes a modular netlayer (much like the CryEngine, the UnrealEngine and so on). They're at this point getting ready to build a game on top of the engine, which is no different than what NWN and most games do/have done.

Frankly, I'm not really concerned on the technical side for them - they have a solid team with some highly talented developers.

[henesua]

Multiplayer game design is not primarily a technical issue. The bigger issue here is one of design choices and vision. If they have multi-player and modding as a core value, then your post here is relevant. If they do not, then while I do enjoy seeing projects like this, you are simply blowing smoke to publicize a kickstarter campaign. Be careful with that it can backfire.

In any case I like the looks of what they are doing. I'm not a huge fan of the realistic graphics aesthetic, BUT I like the physics of it. In my experiments with the unity engine I've done all the rigid body stuff that they demonstrated and enjoyed seeing how their work behaved in game.

The combat looked very interesting to me too. I've looked at designing a physics based combat experience and thought about how to get OK chain animations to respond to the mouse etc.... but don't have anywhere near the talent to pull off the fluidity that they showed there. Impressive, and it looks like that could be fun.

As for all the rest, it just sounded like boiler plate for "we are hard core into medieval fantasy and realism". Not interesting. But still I liked the film.

[Nighthirster]

Well one can hope Henesua, my intention is not to blow smoke - I personally am deeply craving a next-gen NWN-like game which allows the players free-reign with custom content in a multiplayer context.

This is the closest thing I've seen to this. The reason I'm publicizing it is because their team is still very much in the process of crystallizing their objectives, and are extremely open to community feedback. They are also extremely talented, so technically I have few doubts they can pull it off.

As it currently stands, it seems they are definitely including modding tools, and a multiplayer option for low amounts of players. They are investigating the possibility of high-player worlds currently, their main concern being performance given the amount of physics calculations.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I dont see any similarity from their project and nwn...Sorry but where is the big picture of both things side by side that i miss? You are very dedicated in advertising it but please... you´re not talking to guys that dont know anything about this game here;)  And you seem to underestimate nwn mate...

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 09 novembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[OldTimeRadio]

Meh.  I appreciate what these people are trying to do but I'm not so impressed with the comparison between that and NWN.

The real strength in the Aurora engine isn't graphics, it's the ridiculous amount of power you have to program game objects, poll their states, store variables on them, have them interact with other objects and so on.  It really stands out if you grew up playing MUDs as I did.  The fact that you can strap 3D models onto all that power is pure gravy.

So the real worth of a moddable RPG game engine, IMO, isn't necessarily the graphics.  It's what's left after you strip all the graphics away.  Looking at that video, I unconsciously strip out the eye candy like normal maps, the fuzzy volumetric shadows, the physics and I ask "What's left?"

IMO, not so much and definitely nothing comparable to NWN.

The day a better RPG creation system comes along is the day I drop NWN like a hot rock and immediately switch over.  But after 10 years and lots of looking, I still haven't found such a thing.  Not by a long shot.

Again, I appreciate what these folks are trying to do and I wish them great success!

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 09 novembre 2012 - 06:29 .

[Nighthirster]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

I dont see any similarity from their project and nwn...Sorry but where is the big picture of both things side by side that i miss? You are very dedicated in advertising it but please... you´re not talking to guys that dont know anything about this game here;)  And you seem to underestimate nwn mate...

This isn't advertising, this is about seeing the potential in something early stage baba yaga. I'm well aware of NWN's advantages and shortcomings, thank you, having created two full-scale modules from scratch on NWN1 and NWN 2 and contributed to a number of others. I also happen to be a professional game developer - so I'm not underestimating anybody or trying to push this project - simply encouraging an open mind.

The fact here is that what you see in the presentation is a Game Engine not a fully functional game. The comparison is not between NWN and Sui Generis, but between the Aurora Engine and Sui Generis. 

@OldTimeRadio

The tools available to NWN (NWScript, Toolset, Object variable storage, and so on) are what was built on-top the Aurora Engine. In a similar fashion, such tools, scripting supports and so on exist on a variety of other engines - and will undoubtedly be implemented for this one as well. 

Now you asked: "What's left?"

Well, as you may have noticed the world is entirely procedurally generated and features advanced environment streaming. What does this mean? It means you can conceivably create massive continuous worlds without area transitions, without lag or wait times, and with the ability to mathematically generate these environments so that they look and feel very natural. You can also edit it yourself, and leverage all the freedom available in the current NWN Toolsets.

You might say: sure but thats just graphics, that doesn't matter. I beg to differ, a huge part of immersive gameplay is a convincing world where you can get lost in and - for modders - doesn't require 1000 hours to build. As you might notice in the video, the toolset gives you power while getting out of your way. And for the record, they are planning on including a toolset with release.

What else ? You might say. Well the physics system is unlike anything I've personally ever seen. The notion that your character's movements are not pre-canned in the event of being subjected to natural and super-natural forces is pretty amazing. It also allows for evolving animations: that is how good you are of a swordsman is reflected in how precise and natural your combat movements are. Same with being drunk. I can think of a million other gameplay mechanics which would make it a lot of fun.

But anyway, again, this isn't nor was it meant to be a sales pitch lol. I simply wanted to bring something interesting to the attention of NWN gamers, given their affinity for creation and innovative gameplay. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at the number of bitter reactions this post has received - cheer up ladies and gents ! NWN is great, but its geting old - and it would be fantastic to see more initiatives which focus on moddable RPGs with a multiplayer component - there really aren't that many.

[henesua]

Honestly, Sui Genesis is not what you claim. The Unity engine is 10 times closer to NWN than what you claim this project is, but its a basic professional game dev tool.

Sui Genesis is a single player CRPG. It looks cool. But its just a single player CRPG. Yeah, if I had the skills that these guys did I'd make a CRPG with the same depth that they are. I might.  But thats where the conection ends. They had a vision and want to realize it. We've all got visions that we want to realize.

Nothing else is similar.

Why did you have to push this as an NWN like project?  It isn't. It is a cool project. But thats it. It would have probably been fine for you to have talked about it as a cool project. And we'd all be more positive in response to you and the project. But you are being dishonest. Plain and simple. Dishonest. So this is what you get in return because it irritates us.

I don't mean you or the team behind this project any ill will, but I do not like it when others misrepresent a project in order to promote interest in it.

[Editted to clarify and clean up some screwy grammar]

Modifié par henesua, 09 novembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[Nighthirster]

There is absolutely nothing dishonest about envisioning the potential of a game engine - which is exactly what I've done, no more and no less. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but make sure your swallow your accusations while you're at it.

Its clearly stated on their kickstarter that Multiplayer is definitely one of their objectives - with LAN at the very least on release and the likely inclusion of online and massively multiplayer elements post-launch. This is fact, and is available for anybody to see in their FAQ section.

Personally, I have faith that their toolset will be made available to the public - there already exists standalone version offered in the rewards section. In my view, thats only a matter of time. Beyond that, I don't know about you, but I personally don't know of any Multiplayer CRPGs with modding support and anticipate massively multiplayer elements - this makes the comparison more than fair.

Is Sui Generis a fully-featured NWN-like? Absolutely not, its scarcely more than a game engine at this point. Can it become one? No doubt in my mind - the technology is there, the market is there, and perhaps most importantly, the development team has expressed their intent to pursue those features. It may never see the light of day, but such is the risk inherent to any game development process. There is absolutely nothing dishonest about that.

[henesua]

You aren't on secure ground as that has not been your stance since the beginning. Look at your title.

Sui Genesis is nothing like NWN. The core of NWN is user created content. Sui Genesis is not there, and extremely unlikely to get there.

If you were all about mobilizing us to persuade the Sui Genesis team to make their game like NWN, then state it at the beginning and take the lead and persuade us.

[Edit: again. I don't mean ill will, but you are clinging to a BS point here, and it is quite annoying. So a word of wisdom, think twice before posting a thread like this in the future. If you mean one thing but say another while promoting a project, you aren't likely going to receive a positive response.]

Modifié par henesua, 10 novembre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Nighthirster]

No point in debating this further hensua - I posted an identical thread in the nwn2 forums which was met with overwhelmingly positive responses. I appreciate your concern, but quite honestly I don't need you to tell me what I meant or how to post on a forum - rather look to your own forum etiquette before making accusations while simultaneously claiming no ill will.

I do apologize to those who had to witness the devolution of this thread though - this was not its intention.

Modifié par Nighthirster, 10 novembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

good that the nwn2 guys are so nice to Sui Generis and we´re not just individuals with different oppinions...

[Pstemarie]

Thanks for sharing the link, Nighthirster - I'll be keeping an eye on it and hope the project goes forward. Its always good to see what other folks are working on.

[Mr. Versipellis]

I can see a lot of potential here, although I do think they need to think about what players want from an indie RPG - the gradual demise of NWN has really left a gap in the market, and I think they'd do well to add the features people have mentioned.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Only 4 days left.

I kinda feel sad, as it looks like it won't make it.

[Mr. Versipellis]

9 hours left, £10,000 to raise. Looks like it won't make it... what a shame :/

[WhiZard]

Mr. Versipellis wrote...

9 hours left, £10,000 to raise. Looks like it won't make it... what a shame :/

If you were watching you would have seen the amount grow rapidly within the last few days (more than half the amount was funded within 3-4 days of the closing) .  Right now its 8 hours and less than 5,000 pounds to raise.  It seems quite likely it will make it.