261 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

Actually, from I've read from most scientific studies, the gender gap for reflexes is not statistically significant.

[78stonewobble]

Annomander wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.

In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.

 

Nah, not mine. :innocent: Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.

[citation needed]

No, its pretty well known. Due to gender roles developed for thousands of years (us throwing spears at wild animals, them picking berries and looking after the babies) there are skill sets which developed for males / females which differ greatly between the sexes. Men have better spacial awareness, are better judges of speed distance and time and have faster reflexes/ reactions. 

Women have a whole bunch of stuff that they're really good at, the BARB test for the armed forces in the UK has a section which is about guaging 4 shapes all of which are at different angles, and you have to identify the one which is mirrored out of the 3. Women have a 80%+ success rate with those types of questions for the BARB, and men have less than 20% success rate. Women also due to the structure of their brains being different from males generally have a less restricted vocabulary and are more proficient at learning second / third languages than men are.

http://www.amazon.co...52460798&sr=8-1

Describes it all in detail in that book, but if you're not reading inclined, then I'm sure you could find plenty of stuff online about brian brain related gender differences.

Yeah, but thats brain related. Sirian was talking about the brain only partially. Brain -> nervous system -> muscles and their interactions. 

Out of curiosity can you find the BARB test online? I'd like to fail at that too  

PS: Obviously there are differences in averages between sexes. So we are a bit different here and there. Still in everyday life I find that the impact of individual differences (person to person) far outweigh the impact of any inherent gender difference.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[BridgeBurner]

78stonewobble wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.

In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.

 

Nah, not mine. :innocent: Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.

[citation needed]

No, its pretty well known. Due to gender roles developed for thousands of years (us throwing spears at wild animals, them picking berries and looking after the babies) there are skill sets which developed for males / females which differ greatly between the sexes. Men have better spacial awareness, are better judges of speed distance and time and have faster reflexes/ reactions. 

Women have a whole bunch of stuff that they're really good at, the BARB test for the armed forces in the UK has a section which is about guaging 4 shapes all of which are at different angles, and you have to identify the one which is mirrored out of the 3. Women have a 80%+ success rate with those types of questions for the BARB, and men have less than 20% success rate. Women also due to the structure of their brains being different from males generally have a less restricted vocabulary and are more proficient at learning second / third languages than men are.

http://www.amazon.co...52460798&sr=8-1

Describes it all in detail in that book, but if you're not reading inclined, then I'm sure you could find plenty of stuff online about brian brain related gender differences.

Yeah, but thats brain related. Sirian was talking about the brain only partially. Brain -> nervous system -> muscles and their interactions. 

Out of curiosity can you find the BARB test online? I'd like to fail at that too  

PS: Obviously there are differences in averages between sexes. So we are a bit different here and there. Still in everyday life I find that the impact of individual differences (person to person) far outweigh the impact of any inherent gender difference.

BARB is the British Armed Forces Recruitment Battery Test, you might be able to find a practice test online, but you might need to be actively enlisted in the British Armed Forces phase 1 training to access it.

I was, but then I was denied entry to the Royal Marines because of my medical history. Convulsion as a 7 month old baby makes you ineligible for military service.

[78stonewobble]

Annomander wrote...
BARB is the British Armed Forces Recruitment Battery Test, you might be able to find a practice test online, but you might need to be actively enlisted in the British Armed Forces phase 1 training to access it.

I was, but then I was denied entry to the Royal Marines because of my medical history. Convulsion as a 7 month old baby makes you ineligible for military service.

Oh ... Top of google search:
http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20281.aspx

There's a practice version.

And uhm... You still beat me for draft related stuff. Apparently the danish army wont hand out rifles to people with mental problems (a depression at the time). Or maybe thank god for that...

[Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout]

Women who find gaming "hard" due to brain involvement stuff/gender difference mostly do not pick up gaming anyway, so those that game are usually pretty fit. Seen my share of female counter strikers kicking my but around. ( Ok, I accept that I may be a bad gamer at counterstrike, but there is more anecdotical evidence that female gamers can and are good at their chosen games ). So maybe there are fewer female gamers, but those who game do so well.

[Shia Luck]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.

In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.

Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.

[citation needed]

Google is your friend.

Ok, let's see...

Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women

the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men

Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children

the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed

Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender

the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men

Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions.

(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)

the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation:   This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies.

TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.

@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response

Have fun

[BridgeBurner]

Shia Luck wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.

In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.

Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.

[citation needed]

Google is your friend.

Ok, let's see...

Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women

the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men

Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children

the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed

Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender

the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men

Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions.

(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)

the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation:   This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies.

TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.

@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response

Have fun

Your samples are very small. You can't really collaborate data from sample sizes that are so tiny.

One instance also uses pre-pubescent children; when the brain goes under dramatic changes during puberty; so I fail to see how that test is relevant.

The neuromuscular response tests also didn't test any reactions related to the whole spear throwing thing.

I'll get you some stats from Blame My Brain by Nicole Morgan, who had some great references to scientific papers in her book.

Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:39 .

[d_nought]

78stonewobble wrote...

Annomander wrote...
BARB is the British Armed Forces Recruitment Battery Test, you might be able to find a practice test online, but you might need to be actively enlisted in the British Armed Forces phase 1 training to access it.

I was, but then I was denied entry to the Royal Marines because of my medical history. Convulsion as a 7 month old baby makes you ineligible for military service.

Oh ... Top of google search:
http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20281.aspx

There's a practice version.

And uhm... You still beat me for draft related stuff. Apparently the danish army wont hand out rifles to people with mental problems (a depression at the time). Or maybe thank god for that...

I wtf'd on the instructions for the number distance one. Maybe I was a bit slow on exactly how I should click it, but all the other ones were pretty clear. Didn't try too hard to figure anything out, just went through as fast as possible.

Alright, read it more carefully, blasted through this puppy in about 20s


Wish it had the actual time limit in there though. Hopefully it's something harsh like 1 second for each question.

Modifié par chipsandwich, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[HolyAvenger]

Boom, I love it when actual scientific sources are cited in a discussion. Good work Shia.

[BridgeBurner]

chipsandwich wrote...

Wish it had the actual time limit in there though. Hopefully it's something harsh like 1 second for each question.

Time limit for the actual barb is exteremly unforgiving.

Apparently I do not currently ahve the book I thought I did, it must be at my parent's house.

Two books I would recommend for anyone wanting statistics on the difference between the male and female brain, would be:

"The Essential Difference" - Simon Baron-Cohen (details about differences in the two gender's brains.

"The Blank Slate" - Steven Pinker (proves that there are significant gender differences and debuks the "nature versus nurture" argument for differences between the sexes.

Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[d_nought]

Annomander wrote...

chipsandwich wrote...

Wish it had the actual time limit in there though. Hopefully it's something harsh like 1 second for each question.

Time limit for the actual barb is exteremly unforgiving.

Excellent

[Shia Luck]

[quote]Annomander wrote...

[quote]Shia Luck wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

[quote]Eckswhyzed wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

[quote]Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.[/quote]In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.
[/quote]

Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.
[/quote]

[citation needed]

[/quote]

Google is your friend.
[/quote]

Ok, let's see...

Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women
[quote] the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men [/quote]

Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children

[quote] the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed [/quote]
Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender
[quote] the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men

Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions. [/quote]

(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)

[quote] the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation:   This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies. [/quote]


TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.

@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response

Have fun
[/quote]

Your samples are very small. You can't really collaborate data from sample sizes that are so tiny.

One instance also uses pre-pubescent children; when the brain goes under dramatic changes during puberty; so I fail to see how that test is relevant.

The neuromuscular response tests also didn't test any reactions related to the whole spear throwing thing.

I'll get you some stats from Blame My Brain by Nicole Morgan, who had some great references to scientific papers in her book.

[/quote]

Most studies I found had similar sample sizes. I assume that is the norm in this field. As for the children one, it was one of the few that said "no gender difference" and I didn;t want to appear to be trying to argue that women are better than men. I am only showing that I did not find a single one supporting the hyposthesis stated by Lord Sirian. If he or you can find a few I'd be happy to read them.

(And perhaps one more thing? I think you should find sources from more than one author. No-one knows what bias a single author may have when collecting data for their book. Nicola morgan is not actually trained in any form of neuro science either it seems. She studied classics and philosophy according to a bio I just read?)

Anyway, I'll check back this evening when I have more time.

Have fun

[BridgeBurner]

chipsandwich wrote...

Annomander wrote...

chipsandwich wrote...

Wish it had the actual time limit in there though. Hopefully it's something harsh like 1 second for each question.

Time limit for the actual barb is exteremly unforgiving.

Excellent

Well, there's no time limit perse, but your score and overall grade is determined by how long each question takes you, in addition to how correct each answer you gave was. Not sure how its calculated, but certain jobs like coms or logistics require a minimum BARB score. Not sure if OTC requires a BARB test or not, as I was aiming for grunt level not officer.

[d_nought]

Annomander wrote...

chipsandwich wrote...

Annomander wrote...

chipsandwich wrote...

Wish it had the actual time limit in there though. Hopefully it's something harsh like 1 second for each question.

Time limit for the actual barb is exteremly unforgiving.

Excellent

Well, there's no time limit perse, but your score and overall grade is determined by how long each question takes you, in addition to how correct each answer you gave was. Not sure how its calculated, but certain jobs like coms or logistics require a minimum BARB score. Not sure if OTC requires a BARB test or not, as I was aiming for grunt level not officer.

Well, I'm not about to enlist in the British Army any time soon, for one thing I'm not British...

[BridgeBurner]

chipsandwich wrote...

Well, I'm not about to enlist in the British Army any time soon, for one thing I'm not British...

Haha, fair enough. We had to get a minimum proficiency grade before we were OK'd for phase 2 training at the marine corps base at lympstone, too bad I got ****ed with the medical.

[HolyAvenger]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Boom, I love it when actual scientific sources are cited in a discussion. Good work Shia.

 

Yes, actually liking sources cited makes me a white knight. Bizarre logic.

You know, I'm open to being convinced that you're right, but only person here is actually posting scientific studies.

[HolyAvenger]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

If you'd read them a bit you'd see they're not actually relevant at all. In fact a quick glance at the sample size and where the samples came from should be enough to sound alarm bells.

I could post links if I cared to, but they would likely not show any more than Shia's did. (Nothing)

Confirmation bias is too powerful in this instance. You can find a study to show whatever the hell you like. Just ask Tony Perkins.

So what we really have is a case of an unverifiable assertion regarding the superiority of one gender with regards to twitch reflexes or the like?

I'm OK with that. As long as it isn't posted as fact.

[BridgeBurner]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Boom, I love it when actual scientific sources are cited in a discussion. Good work Shia.

 

Yes, actually liking sources cited makes me a white knight. Bizarre logic.

You know, I'm open to being convinced that you're right, but only person here is actually posting scientific studies.

Not many of the studies are particularly relevant, or consistent.

Here's one which uses a decent sample size, and doesn't take any other factors into account.

Full details in the PDF; results clearly show that male reaction times are better than female ones.

PDF of test, explaining method and showing stats / conclusions

http://www.pwlk.net/...ntal_report.pdf

Won't let me post it as a link for some reason.

Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Shia Luck]

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

[quote]Shia Luck wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

[quote]Eckswhyzed wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

[quote]Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...

In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.[/quote]In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.
[/quote]

Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.
[/quote]

[citation needed]

[/quote]

Google is your friend.
[/quote]

Ok, let's see...

Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women
[quote] the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men [/quote]

Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children

[quote] the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed [/quote]
Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender
[quote] the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men

Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions. [/quote]

(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)

[quote] the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation:   This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies. [/quote]


TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.

@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response

Have fun
[/quote] 

Relevance to the topic - lacking
sample size - tiny
internal/external consistency - unverifiable

0/10 try harder.
[/quote]


Ability to notice those are verifiable scientific papers from universities and government NIH - absent
counter arguments supported by studies - absent
reliance on internet husband type meme as only form of response - noted

If it wasn't so pitiable, it'd be hilarious.

Have fun

Modifié par Shia Luck, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:14 .