Like I said, you can find a study showing whatever the hell you want.
NEVER LEAVE THE HACK CIRCLE
Débuté par
aimimia
, nov. 08 2012 02:55
#201
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:14
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Thanks for that Annomander.
Like I said, you can find a study showing whatever the hell you want.
Like I said, you can find a study showing whatever the hell you want.
Retour en haut
#202
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:14
BridgeBurner
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Shia Luck wrote...
Have fun [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
http://www.pwlk.net/...ntal_report.pdf
You were saying?
Method of testing fully explained, results on page 4.
Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:15 .
#203
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:15
Eriseley
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Pyth the Bull wrote...
I would have deliberately stood just right out of the circle.
And dont take **** from no ****es.
Fiiiixed.
#204
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:17
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
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[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Eckswhyzed wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.[/quote]In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.
[/quote]
Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.
[/quote]
[citation needed]
[/quote]
Google is your friend.
[/quote]
Ok, let's see...
Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women
[quote] the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men [/quote]
Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children
[quote] the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed [/quote]
Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender
[quote] the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men
Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions. [/quote]
(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)
[quote] the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation: This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies. [/quote]
TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.
@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response
Have fun
[/quote]
Relevance to the topic - lacking
sample size - tiny
internal/external consistency - unverifiable
0/10 try harder.
[/quote]
Ability to notice those are verifiable scientific papers from universities and government NIH - absent
counter arguments supported by studies - absent
reliance on internet husband type meme as only form of response - noted
If it wasn't so pitiable, it'd be hilarious.
Have fun
[/quote]
Sorry but I've posted numerous other replies since that post. Maybe it's those slower female reaction times (read Annomander's study) making you unable to keep up with it.
Also:
The verifiability of the source of said papers is irrelevant to THEIR relevance to the topic. If I claim that apples are red and you post a study showing that oranges are orange and that therefore I'm wrong, what exactly have you shown?
Counter arguments absent because I didn't feel like spending time/energy debating an issue I care very little about with someone whose opinion I care even less about.
If it wasn't so clueless it would be hilarious.
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Eckswhyzed wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
[quote]Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...
[quote]Lord_Sirian wrote...
In my experience, most girls are really pretty terrible at gaming.[/quote]In my experience you are right, unless we are talking about the Girls who choose gaming as their hobby ( and not the ones who have no interest whatsoever in gaming other than "the Sims"), then they are about on par and can kick your ass from time to time, as it should be.
[/quote]
Nah, not mine. {smilie} Man =/= woman. Just as the world's strongest woman is not as strong as the world's strongest man, there are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc.
[/quote]
[citation needed]
[/quote]
Google is your friend.
[/quote]
Ok, let's see...
Neuromuscular response characteristics in men and women
[quote] the paper says...
Subjects: Thirty-two female (19 lacrosse, 13 soccer) and 32 male (lacrosse) healthy intercollegiate athletes participated in the study.
Results: Women responded faster than men [/quote]
Gender comparisons of dynamic restraint and motor skill in children
[quote] the paper says...
SUBJECTS: Nineteen girls and 17 boys (8.89-9.40 y) participated
RESULTS: No significant gender or skill differences were found
CONCLUSIONS: Neuromuscular differences between genders were not observed [/quote]
Fatigue Resistance: An Intriguing Difference in Gender
[quote] the paper says...
Introduction: Numerous studies have shown women have a greater resistance to fatigue than men; therefore, women are able to sustain continuous and intermittent muscle contractions at low to moderate intensities longer than men
Muscle Mass and Exercise Intensity: Generally, men can generate a higher absolute muscle force when performing the same relative (percent of maximal voluntary contraction) work load as women during a muscle contraction ... Researchers have shown that women are capable of longer endurance times compared to men when performing low to moderate intensity isometric contractions in several muscles groups, including the adductor pollicis, elbow flexors, extrinsic finger flexors, and knee extensors... These authors showed that women had a longer time to task failure at 50% maximal voluntary contraction of the adductor pollicis muscle (Fulco et al., 1999). Note that the time to fatigue differences between men and women are most apparent in submaximal (not maximal) contractions. [/quote]
(In less scientific terms: Men are stronger than women, but women have more endurance in certain tasks. Muscle groups in lower arm and fingers are particularly noted. The closer to the limit of their strength the tests take them the more equally men and women perform. If less strength is needed (such as in video games where no strength is needed) women dramatically outperform men.)
[quote] the same paper also says...
Neuromuscular Activation: This area of neuromuscular activation and fatigue factors needs to be elucidated with more gender comparison studies. [/quote]
TL;DR From that brief sampling (and no one is actually testing video games here, these are serious scientific papers often looking at injury prevention and the like) either women are shown to have faster reactions and less likely to suffer muscle fatigue or no differences are observed between genders.
@Lord Sirian: It helps if you go to serious scientific journals to test your biases and prejudices. Googling Ask Jeeves or yahoo answers is not going to get you an informed response
Have fun
[/quote]
Relevance to the topic - lacking
sample size - tiny
internal/external consistency - unverifiable
0/10 try harder.
[/quote]
Ability to notice those are verifiable scientific papers from universities and government NIH - absent
counter arguments supported by studies - absent
reliance on internet husband type meme as only form of response - noted
If it wasn't so pitiable, it'd be hilarious.
Have fun
[/quote]
Sorry but I've posted numerous other replies since that post. Maybe it's those slower female reaction times (read Annomander's study) making you unable to keep up with it.
Also:
The verifiability of the source of said papers is irrelevant to THEIR relevance to the topic. If I claim that apples are red and you post a study showing that oranges are orange and that therefore I'm wrong, what exactly have you shown?
Counter arguments absent because I didn't feel like spending time/energy debating an issue I care very little about with someone whose opinion I care even less about.
If it wasn't so clueless it would be hilarious.
#205
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:17
HolyAvenger
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There are a number of issues with that report annomander, including the fact that you simply can't know if people truthfully picked their gender.
Lord_Sirian...yes, I agree with you that female gamers are less prevalent, and in gross numbers, not as good. But I don't think that's down to biological differences. I think that's social conditioning and the fact that gaming is still seen as a largely male activity. So fewer girls play it when young, as they are not encouraged to by their parents or expected to by their peer group and so forth. I think those kinds of factors and determinants have a much wider impact of the female player base than any inherent biological differences in the requisite motor co-ordination or other skills needed to be good at gaming.
Lord_Sirian...yes, I agree with you that female gamers are less prevalent, and in gross numbers, not as good. But I don't think that's down to biological differences. I think that's social conditioning and the fact that gaming is still seen as a largely male activity. So fewer girls play it when young, as they are not encouraged to by their parents or expected to by their peer group and so forth. I think those kinds of factors and determinants have a much wider impact of the female player base than any inherent biological differences in the requisite motor co-ordination or other skills needed to be good at gaming.
#206
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:18
megabeast37215
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Lord_Sirian wrote...
I've never been outscored by a female and have never actually met a female who was anything more than competent at gaming.
True story.
Flies_By_Handles is really good.. she outscored my Claymore Human Soldier with a Human Engineer yesterday...
#207
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:20
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HolyAvenger wrote...
There are a number of issues with that report annomander, including the fact that you simply can't know if people truthfully picked their gender.
Lord_Sirian...yes, I agree with you that female gamers are less prevalent, and in gross numbers, not as good. But I don't think that's down to biological differences. I think that's social conditioning and the fact that gaming is still seen as a largely male activity. So fewer girls play it when young, as they are not encouraged to by their parents or expected to by their peer group and so forth. I think those kinds of factors and determinants have a much wider impact of the female player base than any inherent biological differences in the requisite motor co-ordination or other skills needed to be good at gaming.
Well I did state that there are a number of factors that influence why female gamers are less prevalent/good. Most of them not physical.
But I guess that got lost behind Shia's walls of text.
Some people really do seem to be stuck in this whole thing of man = woman. Sorry folks, but they're not one and the same. There are real identifiable physical and emotional differences between the sexes.
When someone says that men are more likely to commit violent crime than women, do I get up in arms and call them a sexist pig? Nope.
#208
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:22
HolyAvenger
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Sure, we basically agree.
I was just musing on this statement you made:
"There are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc."
I don't believe that, I guess.
I was just musing on this statement you made:
"There are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc."
I don't believe that, I guess.
#209
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:22
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
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megabeast37215 wrote...
Lord_Sirian wrote...
I've never been outscored by a female and have never actually met a female who was anything more than competent at gaming.
True story.
Flies_By_Handles is really good.. she outscored my Claymore Human Soldier with a Human Engineer yesterday...
But she's a console scrub, and thus the 'goodness' of a player is determined by the level of autoaim and stupidity of console AI, rather than player skill.
#210
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:23
BridgeBurner
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HolyAvenger wrote...
There are a number of issues with that report annomander, including the fact that you simply can't know if people truthfully picked their gender.
*facepalms*
Clutching at straws there dude.
"Oh, what if they just pretended they had a vagina for the purposes of the study?"
Sure there was no way to verify the gender of the people involved, but if adults are generally asked to participate in something they're not going to lie about their gender. Plus, I'm more inclined to believe a study that tested over 700 people than tested only a handful.
As we've already mentioned, studys can be found to support any wiewpoint you like. The GOP in America is pretty good at making up "studies" which show that gay marriage, or gay adoption is a bad thing, when the fact is it is the exact opposite.
#211
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:24
megabeast37215
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Here's one that's kinda disturbing:
Supposedly women won't crack from torture as fast as men do. Their pain threshold is higher, and their emotional ties to the people they'd be betraying tend to be stronger... thus... men crack from torture faster than women.
Ex-special forces guy I used to work with told me that...
Supposedly women won't crack from torture as fast as men do. Their pain threshold is higher, and their emotional ties to the people they'd be betraying tend to be stronger... thus... men crack from torture faster than women.
Ex-special forces guy I used to work with told me that...
#212
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:24
Shia Luck
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Annomander wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Lord_Sirian wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Boom, I love it when actual scientific sources are cited in a discussion. Good work Shia.
Yes, actually liking sources cited makes me a white knight. Bizarre logic.
You know, I'm open to being convinced that you're right, but only person here is actually posting scientific studies.
Not many of the studies are particularly relevant, or consistent.
Here's one which uses a decent sample size, and doesn't take any other factors into account.
Full details in the PDF; results clearly show that male reaction times are better than female ones.
PDF of test, explaining method and showing stats / conclusions
http://www.pwlk.net/...ntal_report.pdf
Won't let me post it as a link for some reason.
That's very selective reporting. In fact, the conclusion states:
In conclusion, with using the median as the best known value for male and female reaction times, this
experiment tends to suggest that there is no difference between male and female reaction times.
Sorry, but if you are going to pretend to show proof and then misrepresent the conclusion the author of the paper came to, I see no point in discussing this further.
#213
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:24
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HolyAvenger wrote...
Sure, we basically agree.
I was just musing on this statement you made:
"There are other physical differences between the sexes which make men far better on average at gaming. Stuff like reflexes, muscle memory, etc."
I don't believe that, I guess.
Yeah, I think we basically do.
And Annomander just posted a study showing there's quite a difference between the sexes when it comes to reaction times.
Like I said, confirmation bias plays a big role in arguments like this, and it's very hard to test. I'm not going to try to change your mind, as it's a very ambiguous topic and quite a grey area.
#214
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:25
BridgeBurner
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Lord_Sirian wrote...
megabeast37215 wrote...
Lord_Sirian wrote...
I've never been outscored by a female and have never actually met a female who was anything more than competent at gaming.
True story.
Flies_By_Handles is really good.. she outscored my Claymore Human Soldier with a Human Engineer yesterday...
But she's a console scrub, and thus the 'goodness' of a player is determined by the level of autoaim and stupidity of console AI, rather than player skill.
Give them all a keyboard and mouse, and force them to aim manually by their own skill, and we'll see how good any of these console gamers really are. Its not so easy, even with superior controls when the game isn't aiming for you.
#215
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:25
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
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megabeast37215 wrote...
Here's one that's kinda disturbing:
Supposedly women won't crack from torture as fast as men do. Their pain threshold is higher, and their emotional ties to the people they'd be betraying tend to be stronger... thus... men crack from torture faster than women.
Ex-special forces guy I used to work with told me that...
If roles were reversed you'd have feminists like Shia calling you a sexist and spending hours googling to find studies to prove you wrong.
#216
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:26
megabeast37215
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Lord_Sirian wrote...
But she's a console scrub, and thus the 'goodness' of a player is determined by the level of autoaim and stupidity of console AI, rather than player skill.
Yeah... I can tell you have so much experience with console auto-aim to be a master on the subject right...
If autoaim mattered as much as you make it out to.. I would've never missed a shot with my Claymore, but I was missing left and right that game (first game of the day).
Besides.. it's not like there isn't a few thousand good aimbots for you PC hacks...
#217
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:27
BridgeBurner
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Shia Luck wrote...
Annomander wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Lord_Sirian wrote...
HolyAvenger wrote...
Boom, I love it when actual scientific sources are cited in a discussion. Good work Shia.
Yes, actually liking sources cited makes me a white knight. Bizarre logic.
You know, I'm open to being convinced that you're right, but only person here is actually posting scientific studies.
Not many of the studies are particularly relevant, or consistent.
Here's one which uses a decent sample size, and doesn't take any other factors into account.
Full details in the PDF; results clearly show that male reaction times are better than female ones.
PDF of test, explaining method and showing stats / conclusions
http://www.pwlk.net/...ntal_report.pdf
Won't let me post it as a link for some reason.
That's very selective reporting. In fact, the conclusion states:In conclusion, with using the median as the best known value for male and female reaction times, this
experiment tends to suggest that there is no difference between male and female reaction times.
Sorry, but if you are going to pretend to show proof and then misrepresent the conclusion the author of the paper came to, I see no point in discussing this further.
The conclusion of the paper is of no interest to me, the statistics showed that males react much faster on average. For instance, in the 0-300 MS reaction range, there were far more males than females who reacted.
Conclusions are subjective, statistics are not.
Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:27 .
#218
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:29
Sniper21987
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same thing happen told em to go to hell. i killing enemies before they get to the circle got a problem with that dont care
#219
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:30
megabeast37215
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Annomander wrote...
Give them all a keyboard and mouse, and force them to aim manually by their own skill, and we'll see how good any of these console gamers really are. Its not so easy, even with superior controls when the game isn't aiming for you.
You act like I've never played a PC game before...
Shooting/Sniping on a PC is the easiest feat in all of gaming... because it's so easy to lead the target with a mouse and have them walk right into your reticle... I did it for years... and in MUCH faster paced games than ME3... against human competition that is actually trying to make you miss.
Your wack ass feats of aiming on ME3 are actually quite mild by comparison to competitive PVP on console or PC.
Herp a Derp... I headshot an Assault Trooper with my Talon and it's big ass circle reticle... I achieved something.. herp a derp...
#220
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:30
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Damn it Annomander you keep stealing the words from my mouth. 
The lower the response time the bigger the difference in number of males who reacted and number of females who reacted.
Conclusion = no difference. /ok
The lower the response time the bigger the difference in number of males who reacted and number of females who reacted.
Conclusion = no difference. /ok
#221
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:30
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megabeast37215 wrote...
Annomander wrote...
Give them all a keyboard and mouse, and force them to aim manually by their own skill, and we'll see how good any of these console gamers really are. Its not so easy, even with superior controls when the game isn't aiming for you.
You act like I've never played a PC game before...
Shooting/Sniping on a PC is the easiest feat in all of gaming... because it's so easy to lead the target with a mouse and have them walk right into your reticle... I did it for years... and in MUCH faster paced games than ME3... against human competition that is actually trying to make you miss.
Your wack ass feats of aiming on ME3 are actually quite mild by comparison to competitive PVP on console or PC.
Herp a Derp... I headshot an Assault Trooper with my Talon and it's big ass circle reticle... I achieved something.. herp a derp...
We're just stirring bro.
#222
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:32
HolyAvenger
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I'm sorry, but you called out a peer-reviewed study published in a scientific journal for a low sample-size, but I can't call out the fact that this author has no way to verify the accuracy of his respondents? I think the problems inherent in both make them suspect. Also, did you read his analysis of why the median was chosen as the measurement of analysis? He points out the flaws in his own study, exactly like I did. Your own source is contradicting your assertions.Annomander wrote...
Sure there was no way to verify the gender of the people involved, but if adults are generally asked to participate in something they're not going to lie about their gender. Plus, I'm more inclined to believe a study that tested over 700 people than tested only a handful.
As we've already mentioned, studys can be found to support any wiewpoint you like. The GOP in America is pretty good at making up "studies" which show that gay marriage, or gay adoption is a bad thing, when the fact is it is the exact opposite.
I agree that the studies are not reliable. Which is why I'm simply saying that I think the differences do not come down to biological differences in this case, but I think the social conditioning has far more impact. But yes, I don't think we're going to change each others' minds, so I'll leave it alone here.
Besides debating you guys in two separate threads is too distracting from my work!
Modifié par HolyAvenger, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:33 .
#223
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:32
megabeast37215
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Lord_Sirian wrote...
We're just stirring bro.
My jimmies... their rustled... I demand you unrustle them!
#224
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:33
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*
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HolyAvenger wrote...
I'm sorry, but you called out a peer-reviewed study published in a scientific journal for a low sample-size, but I can't call out the fact that this author has no way to verify the accuracy of his respondents? I think the problems inherent in both make them suspect. Also, did you read his analysis of why the median was chosen as the measurement of analysis? He points out the flaws in his own study, exactly like I did. Your own source is contradicting your assertions.Annomander wrote...
Sure there was no way to verify the gender of the people involved, but if adults are generally asked to participate in something they're not going to lie about their gender. Plus, I'm more inclined to believe a study that tested over 700 people than tested only a handful.
As we've already mentioned, studys can be found to support any wiewpoint you like. The GOP in America is pretty good at making up "studies" which show that gay marriage, or gay adoption is a bad thing, when the fact is it is the exact opposite.
I agree that the studies are not reliable. Which is why I'm simply saying that I think the differences do not come down to biological differences in this case, but I think the social conditioning has far more impact.
Like I've said numerous times, something like this is virtually impossible to prove one way or the other. It's like arguing about religion, which is why I wasn't interested in arguing it in the first place.
#225
Posté 09 novembre 2012 - 01:33
BridgeBurner
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megabeast37215 wrote...
Annomander wrote...
Give them all a keyboard and mouse, and force them to aim manually by their own skill, and we'll see how good any of these console gamers really are. Its not so easy, even with superior controls when the game isn't aiming for you.
You act like I've never played a PC game before...
Shooting/Sniping on a PC is the easiest feat in all of gaming... because it's so easy to lead the target with a mouse and have them walk right into your reticle... I did it for years... and in MUCH faster paced games than ME3... against human competition that is actually trying to make you miss.
Your wack ass feats of aiming on ME3 are actually quite mild by comparison to competitive PVP on console or PC.
Herp a Derp... I headshot an Assault Trooper with my Talon and it's big ass circle reticle... I achieved something.. herp a derp...
Too bad I played unreal tournament '99 since I was 7 years old then huh?
Guess if you played that game you'd realise that a pin-point attack like the shock rifle isn't so hard to aim. Then there's the secondary fire, then after that there's detonating the shock combos by hitting the secondary fire with the primary fire at the precise time to gib your opponent in a shock nova...
But of course, I can only headshot with a talon, I forgot that.
Not that the shock rifle in UT requires a headshot, its damage is standardised for all hits, 45 damager per hit, regardless of where you land it.
Modifié par Annomander, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:35 .
