639 réponses à ce sujet

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yeah, the AI overlord of a billions of years old hyper-intelligence of a brainwashing, mind-controlling, indoctrinating, genocidal apex species is just going to step aside an let Shepard take over in his place. Because he's awesome and special.

How incredibly naive is that idea?

Look at Overlord. A simple VI is enough to make a human being go insane. What do you think a Reaper AI will do to you?

How can you believe the Reapers are only trying to preserve life, after every power-tripping condescending, humiliating remark Sovereign and Harbinger have made towards organics?

Seems. Legit.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
More time than you think, as I need to leave too quickly to give an intelligent response.
But the short answer is that I don't perceive it as a sufficient risk. I don't believe that being the Catalyst will leave me vulnerable to indoctrination, as I'll be the source of the indoctrination. I won't be vulnerable to the Reapers, the Reapers will be vulnerable to me. Is it a risk? It could be, but not a large enough risk for me to not take it in the name of preserving as much life as can be preserved.

No problem, looking forward to hearing the rest of your thoughts!

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
How can you believe the Reapers are only trying to preserve life, after every power-tripping condescending, humiliating remark Sovereign and Harbinger have made towards organics?

Just look at what happened to the Protheans.  Their civilisation and culture was hardly "preserved".  Cloned slave-race, anybody?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[HellbirdIV]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't believe that being the Catalyst will leave me vulnerable to indoctrination, as I'll be the source of the indoctrination.

You are not the Catalyst. "You", that is Shepard, is killed. Vaporized.

Your thought-patterns are used to create a gestalt entity within the Reaper hive-mind which radically alters the entire Reaper state of being into something more friendly towards organics - basically giving the Reapers human morals, which was previously completley absent from their existence.

Foregoing the fact that you are brainwashing the Reapers to be a subservient slave species, Shepard is already affected by indoctrination. Any choice you make will be influenced by Reaper Indoctrination.

The "Indoctrination Theory" is based around the idea that the whole ending is an illusion, but even if you don't support the IT it is an observable fact that Shepard is being indoctrinated, hence the visions, the Illusive Man's control, and the irrationality.

Any choice Shepard makes is influenced by Reaper indoctrination - that's why she seems so pathetic at the end, unable to make any real intelligent reasoning with the Catalyst. Shepard would not have any more chance to control the Reapers than the Illusive Man did - which doesn't matter because Shepard dies in Control.

[ghost9191]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CosmicGnosis:
If I were to let other people's behavior dictate my decision, I would look for those who spout the most unreasonable hate - and then make the decision they don't like. There are people whose opinions don't deserve to be taken into consideration.

As it is, I know what happens in my games and the EC supports it. Nobody can take that away from me. The only reason I care about what's said here on BSN is because the haters present a skewed picture of Synthesis to newcomers. Of course, *if* Synthesis removed all diversity and brainwashed everyone then it would be bad. But it doesn't, and it isn't.

to be fair your the only one here that is trying to convince him to choose your choice lol. kinda funny i guess. i am telling him to do whatever . actually upset that he goes with destroy . but not once did i try to get him to pick destroy . you can tell him to pick his own but at least try not to pollute it with pro synthesis head canon

Modifié par ghost9191, 09 novembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[ghost9191]

Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I made the argument against Control because TIM was indoctrinated and he wouldn't have been able to do it properly. I didn't like his vision anyway. If I have the opportunity while I'm not indoctrinated, that changes everything. In any case, I don't really want to kill all of the Reapers, certainly not if I have another option.

...and yet you KNOW for a fact that exposure to Reaper tech causes indoctrination.  And If you are in direct control and communication with the Reapers, you will be exposed to them CONSTANTLY.  Even if you believe yourself to be immune to the Reapers programming, controlling something when you yourself are dead is an incredible leap of faith to take.  Just like Synthesis, you have more questions with Control than you do answers.  Only vague assurances from the Reaper's controlling AI, and headcanon.

Does this really present less of a risk to you than ending the Reaper threat completely?  Are you willing to bet humanity's existance on it?  The galaxy's existance?

I'll give you more time to think and respond to the rest of the argument.

More time than you think, as I need to leave too quickly to give an intelligent response.
But the short answer is that I don't perceive it as a sufficient risk. I don't believe that being the Catalyst will leave me vulnerable to indoctrination, as I'll be the source of the indoctrination. I won't be vulnerable to the Reapers, the Reapers will be vulnerable to me. Is it a risk? It could be, but not a large enough risk for me to not take it in the name of preserving as much life as can be preserved.

all for preserving life ( might i add that is what the catalyst was trying to do ) but your reasons seem to be far from that lol . arrogance and megalomania describe your posts best i believe :innocent:

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, the AI overlord of a billions of years old hyper-intelligence of a brainwashing, mind-controlling, indoctrinating, genocidal apex species is just going to step aside an let Shepard take over in his place. Because he's awesome and special.

Also because it has no ego to protect and will take a better solution even if it means its own destruction.

You are not the Catalyst. "You", that is Shepard, is killed. Vaporized.

Your thought-patterns are used to create a gestalt entity within the Reaper hive-mind which radically alters the entire Reaper state of being into something more friendly towards organics - basically giving the Reapers human morals, which was previously completley absent from their existence.

I've already died once and came back in a new form; I see no reason why I couldn't say that that happened again. It's a different form, to be sure, but while I have a new perspective, the base personality is still that of my Shepard, and I'll continue to roleplay it.

Foregoing the fact that you are brainwashing the Reapers to be a subservient slave species, Shepard is already affected by indoctrination. Any choice you make will be influenced by Reaper Indoctrination.

The Reapers were already a subservient slave species; all I'm doing is changing the boss, which is infinitely better than killing them outright. As for the indoctrination thing, this and the rest of the post is subjective interpretation. Enjoy it on your end, don't try to force it on mine.


As for ElSuperGecko: again, I'm the source of the indoctrination, and with my body disintegrated, I'll no longer be subject to it anyway in any conventional sense. When I've become the Catalyst, I'll control the Reapers utterly and my will will be my own for eternity, or at least as long as the Citadel stands. So I'm not worried about that. As for alarm bells, I'm sorry, but the guaranteed genocide of all synthetic life is a bigger one than any of the others. So, that combined with my previous post... sums up my response to that argument.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, the AI overlord of a billions of years old hyper-intelligence of a brainwashing, mind-controlling, indoctrinating, genocidal apex species is just going to step aside an let Shepard take over in his place. Because he's awesome and special.

Also because it has no ego to protect and will take a better solution even if it means its own destruction.

So which part of your conversations with Sovereign and Harbinger gave you that idea?

The Reaper Overlord will selflessly sacrifice himself for the greater good! The final solution!

Seems. Legit.

(Also, I was talking about Shepard being "awesome and special".)

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 10 novembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[Xilizhra]

So which part of your conversations with Sovereign and Harbinger gave you that idea?

Sovereign and Harbinger sounded in many ways similar to Saren and TIM: indoctrinated blowhards.

[ghost9191]

well as long as the fact that they were already a slave species makes it right i guess that is cool . oh wait

just by judging what you put in your posts. i doubt the galaxy would be better off with your shep killing him/herself and creating a AI based off him or her . i will put money on the cycles starting up in 2-5 years . well not the same but you know. gotta keep order some how right

but this is all based on your responses., just doubt there is much of a differenece between your shep and TIM taking control . but again that is just based on your posts.

your shepard just seems to be all about egoism, which again your past posts prove that. or you wouldn't be so worked up about shep surviving and becoming a AI god .


not a personal attack mind you , just that your shepard sounds like a messed up *****:innocent:

i mean sure , my shepard destroys synthetics , genocide if you will. but does it for the right reasons. does it make it right , no but there is doing the right thing and there is doing something right

all my opinion though ., and observation:bandit:

Modifié par ghost9191, 10 novembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't plan on being involved in ordinary galactic governance. I don't need to be outright ordering people around; I can keep the Council around.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

So which part of your conversations with Sovereign and Harbinger gave you that idea?

Sovereign and Harbinger sounded in many ways similar to Saren and TIM: indoctrinated blowhards.

Funny how indoctrination makes them think these strange things when their overlord is such a benevolent fellow!

It couldn't possibly be that he's just trying to deceive you! No, only his indoctrinated underlings do that!

Funny how Harbinger is considered to be the leader of the Reapers, also. But no, they couldn't possibly be the same entity! The Reaper AI is way too helpful for that!

[ghost9191]

1) point of post was i wouldn't want your shepard making the choice for me .. as is probably your stance on mine lol. well maybe. i wouldn't trust anyone to take control of the reapers personally. too much power and they might not have the responsibility

2) well dictator is the best way to describe AI shep .

3) not saying control is right choice or the wrong one., but it does have its downsides , as do all , it isn't perfect . well in my eyes .

4) but to say slavery is fine because they were already slaves . is like me saying the destruction of the geth is fine because the reapers were going to destroy them anyways.. which is true but doesn't make it right. but this is assuming the reapers are controlled in the first place./ they could just be following their programming

5) that is mainly where i came from . but i don't think EC really left much room in deciding what AI shep does. seems like s/he or it sticks around to be protector or ruler

that should clear up most of my points i tried to make. i think

[Fixers0]

Should Heacanoning even be neccesary?

[ghost9191]

f*ck no . i didn't spend 65$ to use my imagination . i want spoon fed

most of that is true. would have preferred not to have to headcanon most of the ending

[CosmicGnosis]

I just played through the Rannoch arc again. Made peace between the quarians and the geth, and I've been encouraging EDI throughout the game. And then there's Javik spouting his racism.

I really don't want to kill all synthetics...

[Eterna]

Oh look, this thread became about hating Synthesis and Control due to ridiculous headcannon and assumption.

Shock and awe.

[GreyLycanTrope]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I just played through the Rannoch arc again. Made peace between the quarians and the geth, and I've been encouraging EDI throughout the game. And then there's Javik spouting his racism.

I really don't want to kill all synthetics...

Just pick control and headcanon that Shepalyst is working with the Normandy crew to take down the Reapers from within, before Shepalyst goes crazy and tries to slaughter the galaxy that is.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Eterna5 wrote...

Oh look, this thread became about hating Synthesis and Control due to ridiculous headcannon and assumption.

Shock and awe.

I hate all the endings about equally if that makes you feel better.

[Eterna]

Greylycantrope wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I just played through the Rannoch arc again. Made peace between the quarians and the geth, and I've been encouraging EDI throughout the game. And then there's Javik spouting his racism.

I really don't want to kill all synthetics...

Just pick control and headcanon that Shepalyst is working with the Normandy crew to take down the Reapers from within, before Shepalyst goes crazy and tries to slaughter the galaxy that is.

[Xilizhra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I just played through the Rannoch arc again. Made peace between the quarians and the geth, and I've been encouraging EDI throughout the game. And then there's Javik spouting his racism.

I really don't want to kill all synthetics...

You don't have to, nor should you. Go for Control. It's the safe option; it changes the fewest things about the galaxy and you'll be in charge of the Reapers from then on.

[RethenX]

I head cannoned the ending before it was cool....

That was on day one of the ****storm.

[Sovereign330]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Sovereign330 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's amazing that anyone who decides to interpret Synthesis and Control differently is essentially labeled a moron.

And you see, I've never accused Destroy supporters of being morons. I understand the appeal of Destroy. But I see the merits in the other choices as well, and I find them to be more attractive because they are exotic. I like the "weirdness".

But no, I'm a fool. That's the only possibility. And I've been railroaded into a single ending. Wonderful.

Thank you for understanding. I appreciate it a great deal. The goals themselves (control and synthesis) are not as important as the intent (how you use it)....For example...controlling reapers to make humans dominate the galaxy (The Illusive Man) is NOT the same as using the reapers to PROTECT the galaxy (Shepard) . People always assume the worst on this cynical and negative forum.

Ah, you're saying the end justifies the means.

That reminds me of Project Overlord, where this dude called David engaged in a gruesome synthesis in an attempt to mind control an entire race, in the hopes of avoiding a bloody war. A victory without casualties! Remind you of anything?

Let's see what happened to the dude? Ah yes, the VI drove him insane and he was in a permanent state of suffering. He who wanted to control the machines ended up being enslaved by the machine..

But I'm sure interfacing with a billions of years old, hyper-intelligent AI overlord of a mind-controlling, brainwashing, indoctrinating, genocidal apex species is a perfectly safe thing to do.

Also, I'm pretty sure Bioware wasn't trying to tell us anything with that story. It's just bad writing!

When the Catalyst explains control and you select renegade, it says it doesnt look forward to being replaced by you. You become the Catalyst. You determine the direction. If the reapers live, Id rather have them protect the galaxy then dominate it on behalf of the human race.

[Sovereign330]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

OP: Yes, you can.

Now stop acting like you need the fan community's approval for your own damn decisions.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I find the assumption that because Shepard uploads himself into an AI he must inevitably go crazy to be sad because it proves the Catalyst was right. Left unchecked organics will always freak out and try to destroy synthetics before the latter do anything wrong.

Control lets Shepard subvert that train of thought by not only sparing synthetics from destruction but by actually becoming one himself. The only legitimate solution to the Catalyst's problem is to refuse to admit it exists and take steps to ensure organics and synthetics live in peace. And what better way to start than by proving that being synthetic does nothing to corrupt you?

That's my headcanon.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 12 novembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[Ieldra]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I find the assumption that because Shepard uploads himself into an AI he must inevitably go crazy to be sad because it proves the Catalyst was right. Left unchecked organics will always freak out and try to destroy synthetics before the latter do anything wrong.

Control lets Shepard subvert that train of thought by not only sparing synthetics from destruction but by actually becoming one himself. The only legitimate solution to the Catalyst's problem is to refuse to admit it exists and take steps to ensure organics and synthetics live in peace. And what better way to start than by proving that being synthetic does nothing to corrupt you?

That's my headcanon.

I agree that there's no reason to assume that Control!Shepard will go crazy, but that has nothing to do with the Catalyst's problem.

The rationale for the cycle is based on the assumption that we cannot go against our evolutionary imperatives, namely, against the imperative of all life - all species - to expand into spaces they have not previously occupied and just by doing this, with no malicious intent, drive out the other species they may find there should they prove able. We humans are doing this every day on Earth, and there is no reason not to assume it won't eventually be done to us. The ME-specific twist is that it's assumed it will be our own creations who'll eventually do it to us. I don't find this far-fetched at all.

The mistake too many people make when talking about this is to assume some kind of craziness or malicious intent on any side. That's not what is meant. The assumption is that the conflict and eventual extinction of one side will come about as a natural, unavoidable consequence of the way evolution works, a consequence of laws of nature. You may or may not believe in the inevitability of the scenario, but it's very straightforward and not at all "obviously ridiculous".