639 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...


How about a non-ending?

Still better than what we got.

... no. Just, no.

yes. the ending we got was that bad.

Nah, the ending is good now.

".... no. Just, no."

The EC actually made it worse. I really didn't expect they'd manage to do that.

[d-boy15]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Guys, I think I'm gonna have to side with Ieldra and choose Synthesis for thematic reasons. It's probably more wise to choose Control, but Synthesis is clearly intended to be the "equality" choice. Control gives Shepard too much power. Synthesis, as I've argued in this thread, gives power to everybody. I can headcanon that those who don't want such power can devise a way to remove the nanites from their bodies.

you can headcanon all you want but when it come to logic, you not make everyone equal.

Krogan still more bad ass than Human, even more when they got an ancient knowledge like
some peoples claimed. also, alter DNA is not nanites, you change everything forever. it won't
be the same anymore.

as I say, headcanon all you like but in the end, the reality is still there like when I choose destroy
the geth are wipe out.

Modifié par d-boy15, 13 novembre 2012 - 07:33 .

[CosmicGnosis]

d-boy15 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Guys, I think I'm gonna have to side with Ieldra and choose Synthesis for thematic reasons. It's probably more wise to choose Control, but Synthesis is clearly intended to be the "equality" choice. Control gives Shepard too much power. Synthesis, as I've argued in this thread, gives power to everybody. I can headcanon that those who don't want such power can devise a way to remove the nanites from their bodies.

you can headcanon all you want but when it come to logic, you not make everyone equal.

Krogan still more bad ass than Human, even more when they got an ancient knowledge like
some peoples claimed. also, alter DNA is not nanites, you change everything forever. it won't
be the same anymore.

as I say, headcanon all you like but in the end, the reality is still there like when I choose destroy
the geth are wipe out.

I meant that organics and synthetics are equal, in that the distinction is rendered more and more meaningless as time passes. And you're completely right about the krogan; they are still krogan. Humans are still humans. The leaves are still leaves. As for the nanites, we simply don't have enough information.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 13 novembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

It's actually a lot more complicated than that. Suffice to say binary code isn't any worse at morality than the equivalent we use and machines are the whole point of uploading Shepard to the Reapers was to give them moral guidance.

Uploading Shepard's persona is inherently contradictory. The Catalyst provides no basis or feasible logic to conclude, with absolute certainty, this will work. The end-result is a like-mind construct based upon Shepard, which could be flawed in any number of ways.

Manifestly untrue. We see EDI change her code several times. It's easy and it takes maybe a second.

While I concede the AI portion, the Catalyst explicitly states there was only its solution. It did not deviate nor alter its code until outside influence. There is nothing to corroborate Sheplyst will be any more successful, or in fact, can change its code afterward.

Well, the Catalyst is sort of crazy. Shepard isn't. If I thought that being converted from organic to synthetic was enough to make Shepard into the sort of person who made these kinds of leaps I wouldn't pick Control - but I would pretty much have to support the Reapers' agenda.

And what proof do you have upon the eleven hour, the Catalyst was always crazy? You are presuming its present state was the default and that Shepard will be somehow different. Why, how? The narrative must provide exposition and answer these questions, otherwise you are just making blind assumptions derived from insane troll logic.

In the situation you described the Shepard AI would likely choose selective enagement with the Krogan combined with a diplomatic push to try to break up their coalition and prop up any pro-peace leaders. 'Protect all organic life' is a mission statement, not an Asimov law.

How do you know this? Shepard-AI is pure software, identical to the Catalyst, whatever variation of AI it is. Sheplyst will respond based on the coding upon upload. The Catalyst never pondered diplomatic rationality. It relied on its initial coding and reacted accordingly. Unless you believe the Leviathans intended to commit self-imposed suicide. There is no evidence of your theory beyond blind idealism.

I reject the idea that synthetics and organics are destined to go to war.

I accept the idea that by taking control of the Reapers I can end this conflict without commiting genocide on my own side and also the idea that immortality via brain upload is awesome.

I use the Catalyst's method, but I ignore what he perceives to be the problem and use it to solve what I consider to be the problem instead.

You reject the idea, yet use its method. Again, that is contradictory. We have no evidence what it claims will happen. Shepard has to accept its logic at the barest of minimums, otherwise she would not use its method.

You realize complete isolation and seclusion do irreparable damage to the brain, yes? A sentient being cannot handle such a scenario for long before giving way to gradual bits of insanity. Immortality is also not all it is cracked up to be. Immortality and complete isolation are practically a guarantee of severe insanity.

And what if the upload instills a similar logic into the Shepard-AI? You readily admit the Catalyst is crazy, yet see no issue using its device and believing no ill will come from doing so? Saren attempted this with Sovereign. Coincidentally, it too led to suicide.

Do you mean before or after we watch the ending?

If it's before then I don't know shooting the tube will do anything either. I trust the Catalyst to tell me which thing does what because I might as well pick at random.

If you mean after then while the scene is open to interpretation I'm going to go ahead and not interpret it in the worst possible way.

This is the fault of BioWare providing a completely nonsensical, idiotic narrative where we are forced to accept the illogical, to downright incompetent, claims of a homicidal AI, who so happens to be our enemy. I admit, even Destroy suffers from this.

If we buy the Catalyst's logic, it essentially invokes its own suicide, which in and of itself, is stupid. If not, we shoot the tube and nothing happens. We know the Catalyst was lying, whereas if it works, the Reapers are officially gone. Control and Synthesis do not offer the former. If it was lying, we have doomed the galaxy and now Shepard is the overload.

In short, Destroy is a win-win. He is either lying and never intended to help us in any scenario, or is not, and the Reapers are dead.

I see no reason not to. Shepard was a pretty good guy while he was an organic. I just don't think becoming synthetic is enough to change him into an unhinged madman.

Operative words are "Shepard was." Sheplyst is not Shepard, but merely a software program derived from her personality. We have no evidence preforming this upload will not result in Catalyst 2.0. Incidentally, Overlord DLC demonstrates quite nicely that melding an organic mind to synthetic may not be the most optimal solution.

Every reason above is why not to. What you have is blind idealism, based upon blind assumption. While Control is not a straight abomination of logic like Synthesis. Its only really feasibility would be if you completely removed the Catalyst and headcannoned your own conclusion. Granted, that is true for all endings for one reason or another.

[Ieldra]

@Bourne Endeavour:
If necessary I'll repeat this until I'm blue in the face: it is not for you to say what happens or does not happen in other people's games after the ending, unless you have hard evidence.

You're making assumptions about the nature of Control!Shepard, the details of which you can know nothing about and about which we're not told anything. You're making assumptions about the upload process about which you know nothing. You're making assumptions about the effects of immortality which you know nothing about, lead on by a reactionary ideology that says immortality must be a bad thing because otherwise we wouldn't be denied it (that's what's underlying the trope you linked).

We're specifically told that the Control Entity will be infused with Shepard's vallues and personality. It will be as much like Shepard as it's possible for a god-like AI to be, and how much of that is possible is specifically *not* told. So, if I say that in my games, Control!Shepard will act as a benevolent protector of the galaxy, then that's exactly what will happen. If I say he'll stay sane and should he get tired of existence, kill himself without damaging anyone else, then that's what will happen. Should different things happen in your games should you choose Control, then that's fine, but don't judge others' games by your preconceptions.

Also, no, Destroy is not a win-win. If shooting the tube won't work, then the cycle will continue. If Control doesn't work as advertised, then the cycle will very likely continue, possibly with a different boss. If Destroy works as advertised, then the Reapers are gone and the geth are, too, and the mass relays are heavily damaged and will take a long time to repair. If Control works as advertised, then the cycle is ended, we have Control!Shepard as a benevolent protector of the galaxy, the geth survive and the Reapers repair the relays. Whatever you're choosing, if the solution doesn't work as a advertised, then you're screwed in any case. Which is why the argument "The Catalyst is lying" makes no sense from a meta-perspective. Besides, if it didn't want to help you, it could have just left you to die at the elevator platform.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[drayfish]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And if embraced naturally, I'm sure synthesis could be a bold new evolution for all life - an inevitable and revolutionary integration of synthetic and organic in which the better parts of each are welcomed... But all of that growth gets entirely undone by having it forced on everyone against their will. Want to learn to celebrate diversity? Well too bad, there is none anymore. You don't need to bother respecting other forms of life, because there are no more differences; we cured racism by getting rid of race. An entire galaxy of life learns nothing, merely compelled to accept a change they have no context for whether they want to or not.

To be fair, however, the leaves are still leaves. Although their biochemistry now has a synthetic aspect added to it, their fundamental nature has not changed.

...I don't know how this applies to what I was saying. 

But, guess I am glad that there are no racist trees?

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Hmm, well for starters it isn't a mutation, and in addition disctinction is not wiped away, we are just as distinct (probably more so) than what we are under our current life paradigm.

It is tough to say how people would function idealogically after synthesis, but I do not know why you would think everyone would just think the same thing.  Creativity and creaction would probably become tantamount, as knowledge would become and easily obtained resource, but even that is pure speculation.

I am not to good at this stuff, I am also unsure why you think the mass effect journey is about validating the autonomous rights of others?  It really seemed like it was all about Shep making whatever choice s/he wanted that s/he thought was the best for everyone.  In me1 you bascally pick the representative for humanity without consulting anyone, you can decide to unleash a former galactic horror on the galaxy without consulting the galaxy,etc  Me2 was lighter in this scene, but you did get a choice to nuke a civilian town or a miltary town, left entirely up to you. Do you get to ask the civies in both locations how they feel? Nope.  Me3 is all about shep interferring and deciding the out comes of the geth/quarian, krogan/everyone else disputes.  You could say that those conflict involve the autonmous rights of the geth and krogan, but that takes a back sit to shep just doing what s/he thinks is best.

Again, not sure that this is really related to the point that I was making. 

I was saying that the metaphor of organic and synthetic growing beyond an irrational fear of each other, learning to respect one another as disparate races with much to offer and learn, is rather severely undermined when you arbitrarilly synthesise the two races together.  No one learns anything, they are just homogenised into a samey oneness:

'Okay people - rather than black and white coming together, respecting each other and celebrating our diversity, we're just going to make everyone green.'

There's no ideological growth; division isn't transcended, it is ignored and erased.  No one learns anything - just like each of the other endings.

[ghost9191]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I just played through the Rannoch arc again. Made peace between the quarians and the geth, and I've been encouraging EDI throughout the game. And then there's Javik spouting his racism.

I really don't want to kill all synthetics...

well then choose something else . but what javik says isn't really racism . just remember he was around for a different time. he has good reason  to distrust synthetics. maybe partly because everything he knew was wiped out by them but that is just a guess:innocent:

[Bourne Endeavor]

@Ieldra2

You are correct. Alas, what I do have is prior instances in the series to go on, whereas you have absolutely nothing.

Every assumption I made arises because the Catalyst provides no exposition, no evidence, nothing to corroborate its theories. It is either lying or incredibly stupid. Likely both all things considered. For any one of your conclusions to exist, they are all wholly reliant we nod along and accept everything the Catalyst says at face value, despite it being the de facto Reaper overlord.

Now you are the making an assumption and putting words in my mouth. I never made any assertions toward immortality other than to say exactly what I did: It is not all it's cracked up to be. In fact, the link itself hand waves Gods, which may Shepard may or may not be depending on the interpretation.

"It will be as much like Shepard as it's possible for a god-like AI to be, and how much of that is possible is specifically *not* told."

And therein lies the problem. The narrative needs to explain these things. "As possible" is an ambiguous term that could be any numerical value from zero to a hundred. Even the Catalyst itself sounds completely uncertain, thus it is only speculating. How do we know Control does not equate to Space Hitler 2.0? By not providing us with this necessary exposition. We having nothing to base trusting the Catalyst on.

Touche, however with Destroy, Shepard remains alive. If nothing happens, she is still there. Not that this necessarily amounts to anything, although it is only opportunity we have to actually see if this kid lying. Well, excluding asking it point blank but the dialogue wheel went on vacation. Ironically, it does insinuate Shepard will die even opting for Destroy, insinuating it can, in fact, be mistaken.

Another possibility is it has a specific preference in mind and needs you... for some reason, or does not want you to interfere. Unfortunately, the narrative never explains why Shepard's opinion has any relevance.

Regardless, this does not alter the fact it is inherently untrustworthy.

Edit: I should clarify, I do not dislike Control so much as I dislike its poor representation.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 13 novembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Ieldra]

drayfish wrote...
I was saying that the metaphor of organic and synthetic growing beyond an irrational fear of each other, learning to respect one another as disparate races with much to offer and learn, is rather severely undermined when you arbitrarilly synthesise the two races together.  No one learns anything, they are just homogenised into a samey oneness:

'Okay people - rather than black and white coming together, respecting each other and celebrating our diversity, we're just going to make everyone green.'

There's no ideological growth; division isn't transcended, it is ignored and erased.  No one learns anything - just like each of the other endings.

That the inevitability of the conflict is based on irrational fear of each other is your interpretation. My interpretation is that the conflict is an inevitable result of the way evolution works combined with the built-in differences in speed of advancement between organics and synthetics.

The main implication of this is that you can't solve this problem without either taking control of evolutionary relevant aspects of organics and/or synthetics (Synthesis), or limiting the ways those aspects can express themselves (Control). This may not be the message you want to hear, but I find it reasonably convincing. Destroy would either assume that culture can overcome evolution, that the problem doesn't exist or that extinction is preferable to any of the solutions. I should mention that this interpretation does not necessariy require a global change like in the Synthesis ending to be part of the solution. Taking control of evolutionary relevant aspects of ourselves works just as well as a cultural paradigm, which would keep the change but implement it based on the ideological growth you find lacking. My alternative Synthesis headcanon-ending works that way.

I agree about the thematic implications of the idea "we need to change physically to get along", particularly in the way it came across in the original ending. While I, personally, explain it in the framework of what I described in the previous paragraph, it comes across as made for a wider application, even if Synthesis doesn't actually remove all differences. The worst aspect, for me, is the implication that synthetics must be like organics to count as valid life, which is a thematic contradiction to EDI's story. I really hate that part. But I choose Synthesis for different reasons.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 11:48 .

[Ieldra]

@Bourne Endeavour:
I concede the point that the story does not properly lead up to some of the endings as they are presented. Destroy and to some degree Renegade Control are the only options that naturally fit, without re-interpreting previous events. However, I find it rather obvious how the other options were meant to come across, and I take them that way regardless of their less than satisfactory representation in the story. Is it a big storytelling flaw? Yes of course it is. It a really epic failure on Bioware's part, very likely the result of not enough advance planning, and I think they know it. But I play as if I'm writing the story of my Shepard with my game, not reading it. Which means I can supply the missing details myself and make it all make sense.

In the end, it's a matter of preference. I thematically associate Destroy with a Romantic and Lovecraftian attitude to things, the idea that there are things we aren't meant to know, that we'll lose our humanity if we embrace the unknown and that it's best that we stick with the traditional and fight the "other" if it comes knocking at our door because it's likely to be horrific and do horrific things to us anyway. It's an ideological stance I despise like no other, and as a result I'm almost physically unable to choose Destroy. As soon as I do, the Shepard who did immediately ceases to be "my" Shepard and I lose all identification. Others may feel the same about, say, Synthesis. The difference is, unlike some others here on BSN I don't go on anti-Destroy crusades because I know and accept that others don't share my ideological stance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:40 .

[Steelcan]

^. Crusades are fun. I get to burn heathe..... I mean convert non-believers.

Modifié par Steelcan, 13 novembre 2012 - 01:10 .

[Nerevar-as]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That the inevitability of the conflict is based on irrational fear of each other is your interpretation. My interpretation is that the conflict is an inevitable result of the way evolution works combined with the built-in differences in speed of advancement between organics and synthetics.

In universe we have several references:

Geth uprising was quarians panicking and asuming their AIs would rebel when they realized they were slaves, so tried to strike first. Geth themselves never give a damn about differences beyond curiosity at how different organics work.

preEDI in Luna seems to be she panicked upon becoming aware.

Citadel AI knew it would be destroyed if discovered. Was likely right.

Unclear about the ones in Javik´s time, besides how stupid one must be to have cyberparts with self-aware AI.

While it´s not much of a sample, it´s all we have (haven´t played Leviathan, AFAIK, they were quite the bastards too). And I refuse to work by the logic of a being whose "solution" is the systematic genocide of life and turning it into genocidal AI. Have to wonder what it´s do once all planets capable of developing sapient life were destroyed. Go to Andromeda?

And there´s no turning back from Synthesis. It rewrites DNA (the writer probably has no idea about genetics, but that´s another matter). Only "reversal" I can think of would be recreating the older DNA from scratch, which isn´t quite the same. Hybrids are brand new species.

[dversion]

does 'headcanon' just mean 'imagination' now?

[SeptimusMagistos]

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Uploading Shepard's persona is inherently contradictory. The Catalyst provides no basis or feasible logic to conclude, with absolute certainty, this will work. The end-result is a like-mind construct based upon Shepard, which could be flawed in any number of ways.[/quote]

So your assertion is that the upload process is itself flawed? Could be, I guess, but I see no particular reason to assume that.


[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

While I concede the AI portion, the Catalyst explicitly states there was only its solution. It did not deviate nor alter its code until outside influence. There is nothing to corroborate Sheplyst will be any more successful, or in fact, can change its code afterward.[/quote]

The Catalyst had different priorities in that regard.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

And what proof do you have upon the eleven hour, the Catalyst was always crazy? You are presuming its present state was the default and that Shepard will be somehow different. Why, how? The narrative must provide exposition and answer these questions, otherwise you are just making blind assumptions derived from insane troll logic.[/quote]

I kind of took that away from his story. If you play Leviathan, you can get it from there too.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
How do you know this? Shepard-AI is pure software, identical to the Catalyst, whatever variation of AI it is.[/quote]

Right, and?

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Sheplyst will respond based on the coding upon upload. The Catalyst never pondered diplomatic rationality. It relied on its initial coding and reacted accordingly. Unless you believe the Leviathans intended to commit self-imposed suicide. There is no evidence of your theory beyond blind idealism.[/quote]

This is the 'flawed upload' theory again. I'm going with 'perfect upload' theory myself.



[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

You reject the idea, yet use its method. Again, that is contradictory.[/quote]

No it isn't. The Catalyst thinks I should upload myself to ensure peace between organics and synthetics. I think I should upload myself to stop the Reapers from killing everyone and because uploading myself is really awesome.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
We have no evidence what it claims will happen. Shepard has to accept its logic at the barest of minimums, otherwise she would not use its method.[/quote]

I do not have to accept his logic. Only that the devices do what the Catalyst says they do.


[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
You realize complete isolation and seclusion do irreparable damage to the brain, yes? A sentient being cannot handle such a scenario for long before giving way to gradual bits of insanity.[/quote]

What isolation? The Reapers have sensors and speakers.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Immortality is also not all it is cracked up to be. [/quote]

There are other sides to this trope.


[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

And what if the upload instills a similar logic into the Shepard-AI? You readily admit the Catalyst is crazy, yet see no issue using its device and believing no ill will come from doing so? Saren attempted this with Sovereign. Coincidentally, it too led to suicide.[/quote]

That was something totally different. What reason does the Catalyst have for making its offer if it's just going to attempt something like that? What incentive does it have to be replaced if it doesn't think Shepard has better ideas than it does?

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

This is the fault of BioWare providing a completely nonsensical, idiotic narrative where we are forced to accept the illogical, to downright incompetent, claims of a homicidal AI, who so happens to be our enemy. I admit, even Destroy suffers from this. [/quote]

It kind of is, but it's what we've got.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
If we buy the Catalyst's logic, it essentially invokes its own suicide, which in and of itself, is stupid. If not, we shoot the tube and nothing happens.[/quote]

Aside from Shepard's death, you mean?

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
We know the Catalyst was lying, whereas if it works, the Reapers are officially gone. Control and Synthesis do not offer the former. If it was lying, we have doomed the galaxy and now Shepard is the overload.[/quote]

Was willing to take that chance to preserve countless lives. Apparently worked out. Yay?

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Operative words are "Shepard was." Sheplyst is not Shepard, but merely a software program derived from her personality. We have no evidence preforming this upload will not result in Catalyst 2.0. Incidentally, Overlord DLC demonstrates quite nicely that melding an organic mind to synthetic may not be the most optimal solution.[/quote]

I will refer you to the thread title.Also,  I see no reason why the Catalyst would want to be replaced by a Catalyst 2.0.

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Every reason above is why not to. What you have is blind idealism, based upon blind assumption. While Control is not a straight abomination of logic like Synthesis. Its only really feasibility would be if you completely removed the Catalyst and headcannoned your own conclusion. Granted, that is true for all endings for one reason or another. [/quote]

I trust that the Catalyst genuinely has the galaxy's best interests at heart even though I disagree with his goals and methodology. And I trust it to come through on its promise of mind upload because it has no incentive to lie. The only headcanon involved is that after seeing the results of the process I perceive it to have worked as advertised.

[fr33stylez]

@SeptimusMagistos

I don't think he was implying there was a 'flawed upload'. The Catalyst wasn't flawed at all - it had a mandate to preserve and to stop conflict bewteen organics and synthetics. The Catalyst, after millenia of observing conflict, came to the conclusion by using AI logic that the best way to achieve peace was to create the 'Reaper solution'.

ShepAI's mandate isn't much different from the Catalyst - protect all life, defend the weak, crush the wicked, and so on. Being essentially the same AI process as the Catalyst was, there's no reason to believe one day ShepAI won't create a solution to it's problem that may be disagreeable with the rest of the galaxy. Using the slides at the game isn't really proof, as it took the Catalyst thousands of years to finally arrive at its twisted solution presented in the game.

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome. What will happen when wars continue to break out between races/planets/factions? Is ShepAI going to kill both/all sides with Reapers? When ShepAI reaches the conclusion that you cannot enforce galatic peace with a deterrent of violence, will ShepAI invoke its own reaping solution?

[SeptimusMagistos]

fr33stylez wrote...

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome.

There kind of is. That was the whole point of the process.

[fr33stylez]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome.

There kind of is. That was the whole point of the process.

No, not at all. Why exactly is ShepAI immune from coming up its own solution over time again? Just because?

[SeptimusMagistos]

fr33stylez wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome.

There kind of is. That was the whole point of the process.

No, not at all. Why exactly is ShepAI immune from coming up its own solution over time again? Just because?

Because it's based on Shepard's morals and being an AI doesn't automatically make you turn evil?

[KingZayd]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome.

There kind of is. That was the whole point of the process.

No, not at all. Why exactly is ShepAI immune from coming up its own solution over time again? Just because?

Because it's based on Shepard's morals and being an AI doesn't automatically make you turn evil?

His morals are exactly why he won't be able to resist intervening in galactic issues and eventually imposing his will on the rest of the galaxy. He'll end up either an invincible dictator, or end up in conflict with those who refuse to comply (and then be dictator, due to the invincible part).

[fr33stylez]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can say ShepAI won't do this, sure, but when the narrative of ME previously shows an AI (the Catalyst) reaching its solution to a unsolvable problem based on logic, there's no reason to believe that simply replacing the Catalyst with a new ShepAI version would lead to any diffferent outcome.

There kind of is. That was the whole point of the process.

No, not at all. Why exactly is ShepAI immune from coming up its own solution over time again? Just because?

Because it's based on Shepard's morals and being an AI doesn't automatically make you turn evil?

So? The Catalyst's logic was based on the 'morals' of stopping conflict between organics and synthetics, which is a pretty noble cause. Shepard's morals has nothing to do with the methods ShepAI will use to achieve such goals. There's nothing stopping ShepAI from create a Reaper-like solution (or any seemingly distasteful solution) if it concludes this is the best way to achieve its objective. To simply think that another AI, bounded by a mandate, in control of the Reapers will turn out OK just because it came from Shepard to me is naive, especially based on what the narrative up until now has explained.

The Catalyst came to the conclusion to make Reapers not because it's evil, so that's not really relevant. What exactly is so different about ShepAI taking over the reigns from the Catalyst? How will ShepAI enforce galactic peace, with the threat of violence? What will ShepAI conclude when wars break out over the next millenia and people continue to fight as they have doen since the beginning of time? The narrative of ME clearly shows what happens the first time.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 13 novembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[CosmicGnosis]

drayfish wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And if embraced naturally, I'm sure synthesis could be a bold new evolution for all life - an inevitable and revolutionary integration of synthetic and organic in which the better parts of each are welcomed... But all of that growth gets entirely undone by having it forced on everyone against their will. Want to learn to celebrate diversity? Well too bad, there is none anymore. You don't need to bother respecting other forms of life, because there are no more differences; we cured racism by getting rid of race. An entire galaxy of life learns nothing, merely compelled to accept a change they have no context for whether they want to or not.

To be fair, however, the leaves are still leaves. Although their biochemistry now has a synthetic aspect added to it, their fundamental nature has not changed.

...I don't know how this applies to what I was saying. 

But, guess I am glad that there are no racist trees?

My point was that even though a forced merging of organics and synthetics has occurred, everything is still basically the same. The krogan are still krogan. Humans are still humans. The leaves are still leaves. The leaves may have nanites or something in them, but they are still leaves. They haven't been changed into something completely different. They still retain their "identity" as leaves.

[Steelcan]

What A Boshtet wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Destroy ending headcanons.
1. people are okay with no longer having synthetics.
2. all of your squadmates approve of it, joker fine with losing edi, quarians fine with losing geth.

But it's not /just/ synthetics. They basically go way back technologically and it doesn't solve the "chaos" issue. Also, i don't remember Joker saying he was fine about losing EDI and the Quarians are only okay with losing the Geth because they're being attacked. After you make peace, they use the Geth to rebuild. 

There is zero evidence to bbelieve that all technology is destroyed.  Only Reaper tech is affected.  This is shown by the EC slides and cutscenes.

As for the"chaos" issue?  The only person who says that it is inevitable is theCatalyst himself, and forgive me if I don't trust every word the leader of the reapers says.

Modifié par Steelcan, 13 novembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[fr33stylez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

drayfish wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And if embraced naturally, I'm sure synthesis could be a bold new evolution for all life - an inevitable and revolutionary integration of synthetic and organic in which the better parts of each are welcomed... But all of that growth gets entirely undone by having it forced on everyone against their will. Want to learn to celebrate diversity? Well too bad, there is none anymore. You don't need to bother respecting other forms of life, because there are no more differences; we cured racism by getting rid of race. An entire galaxy of life learns nothing, merely compelled to accept a change they have no context for whether they want to or not.

To be fair, however, the leaves are still leaves. Although their biochemistry now has a synthetic aspect added to it, their fundamental nature has not changed.

...I don't know how this applies to what I was saying. 

But, guess I am glad that there are no racist trees?

My point was that even though a forced merging of organics and synthetics has occurred, everything is still basically the same. The krogan are still krogan. Humans are still humans. The leaves are still leaves. The leaves may have nanites or something in them, but they are still leaves. They haven't been changed into something completely different. They still retain their "identity" as leaves.

Then what's the point of synthesis? What did it change? Was it simply a brainwash of everyone in the galaxy?